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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 18:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by MeMe
Madiba are you that BORED?
Meme girl why are you picking on me today? Look let me enjoy the rarity of a summer sunshine in the NOrthWest |
madiss |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 18:31:48
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Lurker we need to critically look at the source of this warrant (a western influenced and dominated court). It is one thing for the warrant to originate from within rather than from outside. Has it occurred to you that that same court will never issue such a warrant against other tyrants that with impunity invade other sovereign nations for no justifiable reason? Has it occurred to you that big nations can choose with convenience whether to be bound by the rulings of the World Court or not?
Frankly, what is more egregious than invading another sovereign country for no reason and against the will of the international community? More people have died in Iraq due to violence from an unjustifiable war than atrocities in Dafur. Dont get me wrong what is happening in Darfur is inexcusable.
In 2002, the United States withdrew from its treaty obligations to be bound by the International Criminal Court because it "feared that its soldiers and diplomats could be brought before the court which will hear cases of war crimes and crimes against humanity." These are clear and irrefutable facts that ICC and such institutions exist with the understanding that they should have jurisdiction over countries and leaders who are at odds with the west.
No where did you see in my posting (and I take liberty to speak on MADIBA's behalf) condoning what is happening in Darfur. Far from it...It is the blatant double standard that the ICC and international institutions seek to hold governments around the world. It is merely a case of not making justice applicable to the powerful nations. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 18:49:44
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Mansa,
You are perfectly right. This is more than being on the other side of the fence. Nothing like Africans vs Europeans or Americans. We are talking about fair-play here irrespective of whose cow is gored. I brought in Yoweveri of Uganda who has been a Western-puppet for more than two decades and a dictator of the highest order and not for once did we hear them crying for his blood. Eriteria is antagonized and called a dictatorship becos they refuse their backyard to be used as a springboard to destabilizng the sub-region. To further infuriate them they refused their stringed aid.
The Darfur crises need a through investigation. With this new threat of global hunger for enegry(environmental friendly), countries with deserts are the new gold-rush countries. From Niger, Mali to the Sudan. We should not be only wary of the West but of China as well!
What is good for the GOOSE is good for the GANDER.
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madiss |
Edited by - MADIBA on 16 Jul 2008 19:47:12 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 19:18:45
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it seems both you guys acknowledge the fact that there are many problems within the continents borders. i agree with you mansa, to some degree, that these are warrants issued by outsiders and that may be deemed as interferenceand pots shouldn't call kettles black, etc.
but did it occur to you, that if africa cannot be seen to bring its own criminals to justice , while they perpertrate genocides willy-nilly, then maybe the africans should not grumble when someone else decides to try and bring justice and stop atrocities, because, blindingly obviously, the Africans wont.
somebody has to start, don't they.
the theme, however , is constant.
africa stands back and watches while its countries self-destruct and implode. when someone gets involved they complain that they want to be left alone to do their own thing as they are all grown-up now and can deal with their own problems.
they cannot...yet.
and, btw, i have never asserted that you guys condone darfur, just that you deflect criticism of problem situations in africa, by criticising those who criticise. that never got anybody anywhere.
speaking for myself as a westerner, i would LOVE to see the intelligent members of this bantaba make constructive future pathways for their countries. but we get moaning instead and blame.
we always hear aout the next generation being the one to lead africa out of the wilderness.
GUYS....YOU ARE THE NEXT GENERATION! |
Edited by - lurker on 16 Jul 2008 19:31:19 |
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 19:48:24
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This is better at least some concensus of opinions,
Agreed that genocide is wrong in Africa,
Agreed that those Africans engaged in such things should face some sort of justice,
Agreed that Africans have not taken the lead in trying to dispense such justice,agreed that the western powers have taken the forefront in these matters,these ATROCITIES are going on NOW,
Agreed that the west has done things that they should not have done.
OK now where? How are Africans going to deal with Africa's problems on their own without just talking about things and taking NO FIRM action?
Should the west leave all decisions about African peoples being murdered in the hands of Africans?
Madiba how long has this been going on?"The Darfur crises need a through investigation"
here again no suggestions,and just to round things off a little pop here"With this new threat of global hunger for enegry(environmental friendly), countries with deserts are the new gold-rush countries. From Niger, Mali to the Sudan. Not only the we should not be wary the West but of China as well!"
The bad west and China want to come and steal sunshine from the deserts,only one problem with that you are going to have a very hard job transporting it as it cant'be put in drums like oil.!
Please Guys recognise and deal effectivly with this problem yourselves!
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 20:11:06
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| Toubab, we should begin at the beginning and create a world court that will hold all nations and leaders regardless of their status accountable for their wrongdoings. I think it would probably a good starting point for the big five to relinquish their veto powers at the Security Council and rewrite the rules of the game all over. How about that...? |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 20:43:08
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world court? is that a last resort for when individual countries cannot police their own leaders or a first resort which would be very big brother-ish.
surely, there must be a world order, with each country responsible for its own judicial self-imposition, with a world court there to intercede when all goes haywire, which is...the UN?
big 5, G8, Eu, Au..all pretty meaningless when it comes to dishing out justice. self-justice is the primary pathway, but of course, it does not work, as the leaders create their own judiciaries , who are as corrupt as their masters and dependent on them.
bearing in mind how historucally corrupt all political unions have been, who is then going to police the police?...the Hague!
we already have all these institutions in place.
how on earth could we ever make them function honestly.
they breathe the oxygen of money , digest the nourishment of power and excrete empty pronouncements on the heads of the fertiliser.....US.
how can you re-invent the wheel? |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 21:16:59
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Thats exactly my point. Since these political unions and institutions are inherently corrupt what use would the warrants they dish out have. You get my drift? You see there is this perceived aura of self righteousness that some nations have about themselves that they will never allow to be subjected to the same standard they try to hold "smaller" nations to.
International relations is itself purely based on self interest as is human nature. The world is full of tyrants but we always find it so convenient to apply these self righteous parameters of justice on a selected few.
It is an insult to the people of Sudan, because they have not signed on to the treaty that created the ICC in 2002. So the premise with which the ICC charged Al-Bashir is faulty to say the least. Since when does treaties become binding to nations that do not agree to them? This in itself is an attack to the concept of sovereignty and a very dangerous path.
In an attempt to gain credibility, they (ICC) are picking on Al-Bashir. I must say there bigger fish to fry! |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 21:23:44
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they did not sign on , because they had something to hide! like asking a thief not to steal.
but they still have to be accountable. jusy because they don't want to play by the rules, does not mean the rules should not apply. |
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 21:49:56
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| Tyrants should be hounded and prosecuted for their tyranny. The question of Bush Blair et al may hold some validity in this equation but in comparison with our brutish leaders these two made sure that their people have good lives and do not trample on them. The likes of such tyrants do not deserve defense such as we are getting here by them being compared to Bush or Blair. I questioned the validity of the excuses of their invasion of Iraq like many others here and elsewhere and it seems they have faulty or false rationale for so doing but then Sadam was trampling on his people and had to be stopped . Whether the end was justifiable is debatable but I do think something had to be done , not invading but prosecuting tyrants can be a better option than simply invading and thus upset the peace as we have seen happen in Iraq.We have got to have some counter action to brutality being visited on poor innocent civilians by armed bandits in power as heads of states |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 22:08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by lurker
world court? is that a last resort for when individual countries cannot police their own leaders or a first resort which would be very big brother-ish.
surely, there must be a world order, with each country responsible for its own judicial self-imposition, with a world court there to intercede when all goes haywire, which is...the UN?
big 5, G8, Eu, Au..all pretty meaningless when it comes to dishing out justice. self-justice is the primary pathway, but of course, it does not work, as the leaders create their own judiciaries , who are as corrupt as their masters and dependent on them.
bearing in mind how historucally corrupt all political unions have been, who is then going to police the police?...the Hague!
we already have all these institutions in place.
how on earth could we ever make them function honestly.
they breathe the oxygen of money , digest the nourishment of power and excrete empty pronouncements on the heads of the fertiliser.....US.
how can you re-invent the wheel?
Then our world has gone maaadddddd! |
madiss |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 22:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Thats exactly my point. Since these political unions and institutions are inherently corrupt what use would the warrants they dish out have. You get my drift? You see there is this perceived aura of self righteousness that some nations have about themselves that they will never allow to be subjected to the same standard they try to hold "smaller" nations to.
International relations is itself purely based on self interest as is human nature. The world is full of tyrants but we always find it so convenient to apply these self righteous parameters of justice on a selected few.
It is an insult to the people of Sudan, because they have not signed on to the treaty that created the ICC in 2002. So the premise with which the ICC charged Al-Bashir is faulty to say the least. Since when does treaties become binding to nations that do not agree to them? This in itself is an attack to the concept of sovereignty and a very dangerous path.
In an attempt to gain credibility, they (ICC) are picking on Al-Bashir. I must say there bigger fish to fry!
Thats it in a nutshell! |
madiss |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 22:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by kaanibaa
Tyrants should be hounded and prosecuted for their tyranny. The question of Bush Blair et al may hold some validity in this equation but in comparison with our brutish leaders these two made sure that their people have good lives and do not trample on them. The likes of such tyrants do not deserve defense such as we are getting here by them being compared to Bush or Blair. I questioned the validity of the excuses of their invasion of Iraq like many others here and elsewhere and it seems they have faulty or false rationale for so doing but then Sadam was trampling on his people and had to be stopped . Whether the end was justifiable is debatable but I do think something had to be done , not invading but prosecuting tyrants can be a better option than simply invading and thus upset the peace as we have seen happen in Iraq.We have got to have some counter action to brutality being visited on poor innocent civilians by armed bandits in power as heads of states
Kaaniba,
Who created these dictators? The West. Why? For their own interests.
Saddam was like in a science fiction movie, where an inventor creates a monster that later poses a threat to his own(inventor) existence |
madiss |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 23:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by lurker
i see njucks raging on about darfur in almost every post. where is his/her constructive solution? all we get is anti-west polemic.
...........jusy because they don't want to play by the rules, does not mean the rules should not apply.
thank you for the invitation. but contrary to what you are painting its not ''anti-western polemic''
when you posted ''Here or Villain i told you my own words about africa since Indepence.
i have criticise Africa since i joined the bantaba. whereever i see hypocrisy i condem it.
there was a brilliant topic here posted by Mbay called ''Should Africa be Compensated'' in 2006. It will show you my position two years before this topic, on Darfur.Do a search on it from the top right and read my comments!
i dont think you (a european) have to tell me (an african) when i am being ''colonised'' by the Chinese neither do i think you have to tell me about introspection!
its something for both of us, Westerns and africans alike.
...and the rules should apply to everyone, Blair Bush Taylor Milosevic etc. If they are innocent there shold have nothing to fear? or dont you agree.
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Edited by - njucks on 16 Jul 2008 23:16:41 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 23:51:23
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The question can be rephrased as 'Arrest Warrant for Sudanese President - Justified? or hypocracy while there was no arrest warrent for other world leaders commiting similar acts.
Seems like the international organizations are used for western agenda. Most UN or ICC crime court is for third world countries. When it comes to Israel for example, nations can't even condemn anything israel does due to US veto. The arrest warrent for sudanese president may be justified if it was not hypocracy.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 16 Jul 2008 23:54:57 |
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