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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 18:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by serenata
Wait, 2bab, here is a good German sausage (air-seasoned and hard like wood) crashing down on your head!   Germany and France want to be the most powerful members?! Ha! Germany's tax-payers pay and pay for other EU members, and what do we earn? Nothing but moaning and groaning!
But I think UK should leave the EU. They never embraced the European idea, always thought to be different from the rest of Europe, and as the last seven years showed, they are much closer to the USA than to us, the continental Europeans. So: Vaya con díos, pero vaya!
Thanks Seranata,(Ah.. your sausage missed me landed on the soft Irish peat!)The PEOPLE of the UK would vote NO to the EU,but of course the politicians won't let us have a vote using the well worn phrase "we are the peoples elected representitives we will decide for the people"What you say is true,UK thinking is more like American thinking than continental thinking,and we have a common language (OK its a bit different !)However American Political decisions have sucked UK into things that they should not have got involved in (representitives of the people ?!) the sausage and banana thing were just the glaring examples of EU interference,Germans like their sausage UK likes a different taste, I like smoked German sausage but I want to choose what I like and do not want to be told what to do by a lot of spongers in EU parliament.Please give me one example of EU excellence.I am not saying that UK people dont like European people just that I agree with you that UK people have "never embraced the European idea, always thought to be different from the rest of Europe, and as the last seven years showed, they are much closer to the USA than to us, the continental Europeans"
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 18:35:47
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Lurker,
“…i feel that africans embrace their fellow countries and countrymen and do not need to be press-ganged into any union. they naturally identify…” Where did you get that from, and what do you mean by “they naturally identify”. Did you ever talk to a Gambian about Sene-Gambia, the idea of a union, what reaction did you get?
“…my parents are from south Africa. does that make me African??” You said in a previous post that you are british, are you.
You may have some good intentions but your perception of Africa is totally stereotypical but of course we are what we know and can not know what we don’t know, your knowledge of Africa is not first hand, or second hand but baroque
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 18:48:53
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janko, i simply mean that to some of us, africans seem to have a sense of brotherhood across the continent which does not rely on them being ordered so to feel, unlike us europeans. that is not a very hard concept to understand, now is it? i actually thought that some of you would be proud that we could be jealous of this empathy.
if you disagree, then perhaps yo do not feel it like some do. this is not about politics. so it is not about senegambia or any other particular beef. it is about empathy, if you know what that is, then you know what i am talking about. you seemed to have entirely missed the point.
everybody's views are stereotypical, including your views about my opinions.
my knowledge of africa is whatever it is. you have only an inkling of what i know and what i choose choose to write about. i think that after 20 years of travelling the continent, living in some of it and amassing quite a nice little library on the continet, i have some views which do not require your approval. they are based on my perceptions, not yours.however, baroque(complex/bizarre) is a lovely word and not used very often on this bantaba, so bonus points to you for that word being thrown in.
your views of me are steriotypical of an africans view of a brit/westerners knowledge of africa and so on and so on.
finally, i am british, according to kayjatta, because i was born here. but according to some, i am whatever my heritage is. personally,i consider myself british cos i was brn here, but i have more links to africa than i ever did to UK, so why does that not permit me to feel that i have an africa heritage, almost as much as you in fact, other than my place of birth being elsewhere. this is precisely why i posted this question, even if kayjatta thinks my questions are not of any intelligent value. it was looking for people's opinions.
now we have yours on me. well done.
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Edited by - lurker on 01 Jul 2008 18:59:47 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 19:38:41
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Lurker,
Is okay, we all do have identity crises some times.
Some times when people ask me where I come from and I intentionally answer Africa to provoke a discussion just to find that they are satisfied with that answer…
What would you say when I say europeans are more loyal to each other, have more solidarity within than Africans.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 19:50:44
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i would say it depends on what kind of loyalty you mean.
political?
tribal?
racial?
geographical?
historical?
educational?
linguistic?
cultural?
lifestyle?
etc
there are so many defining features of nations.
can you explain why you might think that europeans are more loyal to each other than africans?
we have a history of fighting each other over the centuris. religion/land/money/family disputes etc
we have a union which our own leaders will not let us vote on as they know that most of us would reject it.
yet so many africans would seem to want to join up into bigger units, to forge economic power bases, to help develope each other, to encourage growth and political emancipation. AU/Sadc/Ecowas.
these are small examples.
i know there are all sorts of wars that have happened in africa for all sorts of reasons, that did not involve outsiders.
but there is undoubtedly a sense of kinship between african nations on the whole, maybe born out of common hardships, that is evident. sure, tehy are disrupted occasionally by dispute(i.e. the senegambia situations of this world) but i think a kenyan sees a zimbabwean as his brother, a mauritanian sees a nigerian as his brother - on the whole.
i do not think a frenchman sees an englishman as his brother or an englishman sees a german as his brother.
can you sort of see what i mean? |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 20:05:01
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Well Lurker, nice question anyway - at least, when you take the number of enthusiastic responses as a criterium for 'nice'.
When i was visiting London a few weeks ago, the cabdriver asked me if i was 'from Europe' (at least he didn't ask me if i was a human being, so sorry Kaanibaa - that something like that happened to you). I will not start throwing Dutch cheeses around, T1020, because i will eat them - nothing could be nicer, not your Cheddar or anything.
Do i 'feel' Dutch? Yes, i do. And i feel even more Dutch when i am abroad, doesn't matter where.
Even when i cross the border into Belgium or Germany - the atmosphere is totally different at once. Landscaping, architecture, and of course also the people are different in various ways, depending on where you are. Stereotyping (!!): in Paris the people are arrogant, in Milan they are chaotic, on the Greek isles the people are sweet and hospitable, the Germans have no sense of humor (except for Serenata, of course). I am sure others will add that 'people from Amsterdam are either permanently stoned or gay'. That is what we do, we generalise. Even so, Europeans know that our continent is a patchwork of many different mentalities (which is why none of us feels 'European' or can have any enthusiasm for the EC).
Is it the same on the African continent? I seriously wonder about that. I am not counting the Nortern African (Arab?) countries, i am talking about 'Black Africa'. The only other African countries i visited apart from Senegal and the Gambia, are Kenya and Tanzania. I was surprised to see that, although the distance between Banjul and Nairobi is bigger than the distance between Banjul and Amsterdam, there was not much difference in life in the villages; local shops were built the same way, marketstalls, the way the people dressed (am not talking about Maasai), how they built their mudblock houses, the colours of the paint they used, the cooking utensils and kitchen things you could buy on the market etc. Don't know how many times i thought i could just as well be on Serrekunda market.
Another aspect: when you look at the official borderlines of African countries, they are unnaturally straight. I have to admit, i do not know much about this - but it looks like some (Western?) people took their rulers and divided the continent into 'countries', not much taking tribes and cultures into account. Which is perhaps why Africans on the whole feel closer to their brothers and sisters in other African countries, there could still be age-old bloodlines or a certain understanding because of tribal origin.
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When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 20:20:10
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anna, you have broadened the scope even more.i have certainly found that travelling through africa elicits a lot of commonalities( i hate that americanised word). markets, dress, village lfe, schools, even some dress codes. africa still retains a freedom in a way.we are so tied down by rules and regulations that we choke when we have to move around in our own borders. it is a beautiful escape to get out to a continent where you can let go and taste and smell and sense and exist without a constant nanny looking down at you. this is why there are the toubabs who love africa. this is why there are you and me who wish to converse with africns on bantabas. we envy a lot of african features. we want to share their experiences, so different from our own.we wish we could live with some of their freedoms.we also like our privileges, economies and technologies. who does not want the best of both worlds? you know that my abiding pleasure from africa after all these years is so simple - the love of african people to laugh - even in the utmost adversity. that takes spirit and fortitude and strength. we are comparatively miserable, no matter how better off you may think we are.
african nations have had a miserable history from outside interference, but they need be proud that , after all the oppression, there are millions of outsiders who wish that they could spend more time on that continent, instead of in their stressed out little cages back in europe.
now that. mr kayjatta, was "gush".but sentimental, happy gush. |
Edited by - lurker on 01 Jul 2008 20:34:51 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 12:10:03
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I think you are being paternalistic Lurker. I do not think many Africans see the "freedom" you are talking about. But in a way I see what you mean...
I know its only been more or less 50 years for many African countries, as far as self determination is concerned, so there is more changes ahead.
Anna's my nominee for the "Nobel Prize" though. Her theory about the artificial demarcation of African borders by Europeans without regards to the inhabitants and their cultures is very much on point. This fact, as she rightly stated might be partly the explanation for the often expressed fraternity between Africans across national borders and across the continent (eg. Gambia, Senegal and G.Bissau), although it is sometimes also the source of many conflicts on the continent (eg. Rwanda and Burundi). |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 12:40:12
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quote:
Originally posted by lurker
someone asked me what made me have a british identity and feel british. i found it a hard question. i wonder what makes an african feel african, other than the patronising answer from kayjatta, as usual.totally subjective. invited feelings, not kay-crap.
people can answer from inside their own hearts. no specific categories. could be anything from culture to colour to anything. hard question, maybe,
If you ask me, Lurker, only you and Gordon Brown share this "British" category option ... I am SCOTTISH and never have/nor ever will think of myself as British!!!! (oops touchy subject here  ) |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
Edited by - MeMe on 02 Jul 2008 12:42:00 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 12:43:45
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 14:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MeMe
If you ask me, Lurker, only you and Gordon Brown share this "British" category option ... I am SCOTTISH and never have/nor ever will think of myself as British!!!! (oops touchy subject here )
Know what you mean MeMe,
I am ENGLISH
("and never have/nor ever will think of myself as British!!!! (oops touchy subject here ")
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 02 Jul 2008 14:56:56 |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 23:37:54
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Nobel Prize, Kay? When and where, and what's the fee (i have been a bit money-preoccupied of late because we're going to move house)  ? Thanks friend, i am truly honored (even if there is no fee whatsoever), but i am sure this matter of arbitrary borders was discussed before. The consequences are clear in present day every-day-African-life. My partner is a Touray, there are Tourays, or Toures all over the place: Gambia, Senegal, Mali, Guinea or even Ivory Coast. One big family, but someone just drew a straight line once - saying now you are a Gambian, or a Senegalese etc. But maybe some groups would have preferred to be on the other side of the line. Some were thrown in in their 'country' with another 'big family' or tribe by coincidence with groups they did not particularly like, hence the tribal unrest (or even wars) in some countries.
This phenomenon is absent in Europe, although we have seen something like it in former Yugoslavia.
Kayjatta:
Anna's my nominee for the "Nobel Prize" though. Her theory about the artificial demarcation of African borders by Europeans without regards to the inhabitants and their cultures is very much on point. This fact, as she rightly stated might be partly the explanation for the often expressed fraternity between Africans across national borders and across the continent (eg. Gambia, Senegal and G.Bissau), although it is sometimes also the source of many conflicts on the continent (eg. Rwanda and Burundi). |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2008 : 08:30:33
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Anna, when and where, shall be announced later. But seriously, "the partition of Africa" which largely resulted in the present nations of Africa is one single issue that runs through the heart of the political, economic, and cultural benefits and perils of Africa as a continent. It is perhaps the "Unified Field Theory", if you like, of Africa's political-economy and society...
I think you have brought up a hugely significant issue here, Anna. |
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Lily
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2008 : 09:35:36
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Many borders are false - all are in the end man made (with the emphasis on the man there!) and are there because of some war or another.
What makes any of us who were are?
My parents were Scottish, I was born in England, I live in Wales. I am British first, European second (unfashionable, I know but French family, Dutch friends, lived in France, Germany and Greece) but part of my heart now belongs to the Gambia and West Africa.
Don't you think that patriotism (and I don't just mean being proud of who you are or waving your flag at a football match - mine's then Scottish!) and overt nationalism cause too many divides?
Can't we just all be "people" ......... and in a perfect world just be "equals" ....... |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2008 : 12:31:36
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| Lurker you mention sense of brotherhood, this is because of the tribal connections, which cross geographically locations, one example is fulas this tribe is found across many country borders, that right there will give a sense of unity. |
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