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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 13:48:52
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true, MeME, but a solution still needs to be found. i have no idea how this ends up. My hope would be that Bob , for once in his life, does the decent thing and steps aside. He never groomed anyone, so there will be a behind-the-scenes bunfight for his chair.
Zanu-pf have to call off their thugs, first and foremost.
there has to be a fair election, and then , as is likely, they will have to accept defeat if that happens.after that, mdc should co-opt some zanu-pf into some form of national unity govt. is there any other way?
problems are that bob does not want to go. that zanu-pf don't want to take their snouts out of the trough. they will all want amnesties for any possibility of any future legal actions.
if somebody like annan or suchlike, can actually broker this over the next year or two, the people will get behind a united front. it could work.
if bob stays and zanu pf dig their heels in, i fear a civil war.
when hungry, tortured people no longer have anything to lose, they are no longer afraid to go on the streets and face mugabe's bullets.
this does not need to happen and probably won't, but none of this can ever happen while Mugabe is there, zimbabwe knows it, zanu/mdc know it/africa knows it.
go on, bob, doors open. |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 14:08:12
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Here's a possible suggestion I read on another site which might just work .....
"Instead of imposing sanctions on Zimbabwe (not likely to affect a mad leader), the United Nations should offer assistance to any African nation putting pressure on Mugabe to allow a representative government. The assistance could be in the form of reduced tariffs on the nation's products, or technical aid and information."
Is this a starter for 10??? 
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It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 20:22:40
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A lot of the things we discuss here are irrevant to the current situation in Zimbawe. What matters most is that the people of Zimbawe spoke their minds by voting Mugabe out and electing a new leader.
Mugabe lost the elections outrightly and the people spoke loud and clear. For Mugabe and his party to look for power sharing is really a shame. They have been in power for 30 years and lost miserably. They should hand over power to the elected power that is what civilize nations do.
To suggest that Mogan Tzangari is a puppet of other nations is to insult the will and independence of the people of Zimbawe who despite their starvation and oppression voted for the opposition. Stop the bickering and call it as it should be priod. '
Anything else is to play ignorance to democratic values and principles. There was no need for a second round... Am ashame of these African leadership trades. Are you proud of them for real??? |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 20:56:43
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Thanks, Kayjatta,
the questions you asked are vital for “Zims” way forward. The only guarantee for the feature stability of Zimbabwe is to deal with the problem in its entirety. Over are the days of agitated sentimental rhetoric that mostly discusses the surface and not the dept of the problem.
MeMe, thanks
99.9% of the posts herein agree that Mugabe´s time is up. The question is how? The discussion continues to debate possibilities that would guarantee the feature. Therefore it is of importance to look at the problem in its entirety and avoid falling in the pith of sentimentality.
Your question is like saying; the courses of climate change are not important, we just need to solve the problem but how can we find a solution, or solve the problems of climate change without understanding its courses. If we hang Mugabe like Saddam without understanding the course(s) of the problem, then we are just buying time for the problem to incubate and get bigger and deadlier. That is not a blame game but a reality that is affecting the lives of millions including Zimbabweans.
As you may notice even where as we all seem to agree that Mugabe should go, we disagree on who is responsible, some say Mugabe is the only culprit whiles others including myself mean that there are other actors that intentionally sabotaged the progress of Zimbabwe and therefore those actors should also take their part of the responsibility. And some yet asked a very tangible question; why is the Zimbabwean problem more urgent than Dafur´s and Somalia’s. The political pretentiousness geared by those agitated and negative propaganda to destabilize Zimbabwe for economic gains shall not escape blame today just to repeat the same dirty propaganda against any government that will not dance to their tune. There is nothing that says the same actors, if not dealt with would not sabotage MDC or a national unity government.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 02 Jul 2008 21:13:32 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 20:57:49
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dbaldeh, what is the collective noun for despots? a devil of despots, a diabolo of despots, a dummy of despots, a dustbinload of despots?
i do not know.
kayjatta points out correctly that these despots who represent a good proportion of your continent, are so dirty that they will not embarrass mugabe for fear of his exposure of their dirty deeds, presumably he knows about these because he was involved in them.
it is convenient for the neo-colonialist conspiracy theorists like njucks, to blame britain for puppetmastering the mdc and tsvangirai. as you say, the people voted for him, not for britain. whether they(britain) are involved or not, the people did not vote for britain. but their voice was silenced.
it seems clear that no solution is possible with mugabe still around.obvious, really.
but....
kay is right.
these are all part of the same cabal of criminals. they will not break "omerta" on one of their own. this is the ultimate tribalism and gangsterism.
these are the "hoodies" of africa. the gangs of men who terrorise their people for personal gain.
they would never grass on their fellow mobsters. it is just not the done thing. so they sit and wine and dine at their peoples expense and pontificate and gesticulate , but actually do nothing.
the maintenance of the status quo is their bankroll.
yet, ...
small voices crack the wall of silence...,tanzania, botswana, zuma, and you feel that time is approaching for others to join the chorus and the dustbin of despots will gradually become a uniformatised voice against their erstwhile role model as he is now an impedance to their status quo and to their accumulation of more wealth.
and so this thing will pass, if for all the wrong reasons, but pass it will.
this african posse will look after their majority and sacrifice the obsolete in the pursuit of continued power and wealth.
it stinks. it is heinous, it is rank. but it is universal from time immemorial.
salute our leaders, you and me both. we vote them in and we get what we deserve.
when we vote them out, we do not get what we deserve.
democracry is smokes and mirrors in the name of freedom.
i never vote.
are you surprised?
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 00:12:29
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quote:
kay is right.
these are all part of the same cabal of criminals. they will not break "omerta" on one of their own. this is the ultimate tribalism and gangsterism.
these are the "hoodies" of africa. the gangs of men who terrorise their people for personal gain.
they would never grass on their fellow mobsters. it is just not the done thing. so they sit and wine and dine at their peoples expense and pontificate and gesticulate , but actually do nothing.
the maintenance of the status quo is their bankroll.
And whose bankroll are they on? Who actually prrofitted from Uncle Bob's money in foreign banks? Who favored Mugabe over Nkumo because he would sign up to land redistribution after 21 years? Wh0 stopped Zimbabwe from trading in 2002 by imposing economic sanctions and why? Where was the leader of MDC before 2002? Why is it that the British media are deliberately entering Zimbabwe when they are band? Why is it that we are being bombarded with biased news stories 24/7 about Zimbabwe? Why won't Britain give up its hold on Zimbabwe? The questions go on.
We know Zimbabwe can feed itself, and sell the surplus to its neighbours. it's done so in the past. The only difference was that vast tracks of land the size of Wales were own by white farmers and it was the Black farmer workers who sweat and toil that made the profits for absentee land owners sitting in the House of Lords. So why is West placing sanctions on Zimbabwe?
It wouldn't surprise me if the UK and MDC have decided to turn some of that Zimbabwean pasture over to growing some biofuel or exporting some arable crops over to the UK to stop the rise in food prices?
peace
Sister Omega
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Peace
Sister Omega |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 00:16:31
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Sister the journalists risked their lives to try to tell the world the truth about what is happening now. Are you listening?
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 00:27:10
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when you've finished blaming everyone except the africans for their own misfortunes, might you try and explain how the west's historical interference and economical misjustices in africa allow the current elected presidents of independent african countries to lift not a finger as one of their own goes about his murder spree with impunity.
it is a good job the "bias"bbc do get in to report, and bias is only a word you can use when you disagree with their reporting, else no-one would ever know what your continent's version of hitler is doing.
no-one is debating the british colonialism and its horrors, but they are justly appalled at the blind eyes turned towards a true tyrant who is massacring his country and its people.
you did not address one issue about mugabe,his cronies or the cowardly, craven group of so-called leaders, only played the blame game.
maybe you think he is a good chap and someone to be respected , despite his deeds of today. |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 02:09:50
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What is happening in Zimbabwe is nothing new to Africa. Mugabe was the puppet of Britain. I believe if he hadn’t touched white farmers, he would have continued to brutalise his people without Britain noticing it. This is the West for you.
It is up to us Africans to be smart. The west is not interested in any other person. They are only interested in fixing hot plates for their citizens. But who am I and you to blame them for safeguarding their interest so vigorously in other parts of the world? It is up to us Africans to realise this and protect our interests as well.
The nitty-gritty of this problem is the issue of Land. If Mugabe had not seized the land, I swear, he would have killed another 1 million Zimbabweans but Britain won’t talk.
There are horrors happening all across Africa. These are African problems, we have to solve them. What keeps on bewildering me is the high pitch in Britain’s howls over Zimbabwe. We have seen horrible vote rigging in Kenya recently. Is it not Britain and America who mediated for a power sharing government in that land?
Why is Britain wailing like a baby over Zimbabwe? I am not condoning Mugabe’s acts, but these are problems created by the colonial masters (British) themselves.
As you make your bed, you must lie on it. Britain should have known that the class system combined with racial supremacy that was invented in Rhodesia and transcended to Zimbabwe will not last. People will realise it someday.
But that’s Britain for you. She will hit you and when you hit back, she wails like a baby and starts calling you “evil”.
Africa is bedevilled by evil creatures (our leaders). This is the reason they cannot condemn Mugabe.
I feel very sorry how we African’s behave so immature to the West. I have seen it here in lots of postings. It’s as if the West will be our saviours in everything.
The way Britain wails over Zimbabwe is what churns my guts. Let the British government shut their yaps up.
One thing I noticed on Bantaba is that when you try to highlight the past, you are always condemn and accused of digging too much into the past. How can you rectify the present wrongs and build a better future without looking at the past?
Dbaldeh, Zimbabweans were put in a situation where they have no choice but to vote for a change. They are like laboratory rats. They are cornered and starved by the west. That is the tactic. The only way they can get rid of Mugabe is by starving his people. Obviously, if they are hungry, they will see him inefficient and therefore call for a change. Zimbabweans were unlawfully starved by Britain and its allies through sanctions. What they want is an uprising in Zimbabwe. This is exactly how they planned the game. Remember, they played the same cards in Iraq. People didn’t rise against Saddam as they planned so they went in by force.
Africa’s case is simple for them. They know how selfish we are and how shallow we think. They know we have inferiority complex written all over us and we will do whatever they want so they don’t have to waste too much resources in carrying out their plans on us. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 08:14:44
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Born Africa You think the West is making TOO MUCH FUSS over Mugabe?  Unbelievable. There is not ENOUGH fuss!
Obviously the past history impacts on the present day. I am no defender of colonialism. BUT to improve things on the ground for ordinary Africans we need to look at what is going on NOW and WHO is responsible for it.
Personally I don't think there is any imaginable excuse for what is going on. Do you really want to defend Mugabes right to murder his own people?
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 09:39:43
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| Born African that was a brilliant piece! For me thats a thorugh analysis of the whole situation. |
madiss |
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MeMe
United Kingdom
541 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 11:15:44
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I was tempted to place a reply to the finger-pointing of BornAfrican, Madiba, et al but then thought to myself .... you can't talk intelligently to H.E Jammeh about aids, HIV, homosexuality, etc so what's the point?
Narrow-minds are not just western .... |
It is better to die standing than to live on your knees - Ernesto Guevara de la Serna |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 11:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BornAfrican
...It is up to us Africans to be smart. The west is not interested in any other person. ..... If Mugabe had not seized the land, I swear, he would have killed another 1 million Zimbabweans but Britain won’t talk.There are horrors happening all across Africa.
Born African, you're spot on. Brilliant piece that sums up this argument. We dont even need to go to the Colonial period to ''blame the Romans'' lets look at text from this very Bantaba.
''In the 1980s Mugabe killed 30000 Ndebeles'' ---- by Lurker.
Now the trick is 30,000 Ndebele (native black Africans) but he didnt touch the Land issue. No whites were killed then. THERE WAS NO FUSS, NO CALLS FOR REGIME CHANGE NOTHING. HE GOT A KNIGHTHOOD FOR THAT. In late 1990s, farm invasions start, Mugabe gets an EU/UK travel ban, and the Campaign of getting rid of him starts. becareful, some people thing we shouldn't look that far back. it all started in 2008!!!
In 2004, Mark Thatcher, the son of former British Prime Minister (who actually called Nelson Mandela and the ANC TERRORISTS), was caught, pleaded guilty to funding a plane full of Mercenaries to overthrow the govertment of Eq.Guinea led by an ex British Soldier, Simon Mann.
the argument is that We Africans should stop ''blaming'' others for our problems. Fine, if we dont blame Mark Thatcher who else should be blame.THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONDEMNATION OR FUSS FROM THE UK GOVERTMENT ON THIS TYPE OF ''TERRORIST'' BEHAVIOR. Africa problem is complex as it is, selfish outside interference is just complicates it.
AU Summit should strongly condem Mugabe.
When Leaders at the AU Summit dont critise Mugabe as the UK/West wants, those very leaders are now branded the same as Mugabe (''despots''). You see how faulty their argument is. Had the leaders actually critised Mugabe, then they would have been ''Great Leaders'' and all the other abuses happening as you mentioned all over Africa would be ignored as is in Darfur.. .
you see, the hypocrisy in all this is that, the UK especially their PM, doesnt want to look soft on human rights and Mugabe offers him just that opprotunity so he can boost his stupid ego and beat his chest for his own electorate.
its all TALK but he will never walkk the talk. if he wants to really get rid of Mugabe, he would prohibit all British companies investing there to quit immediate. Mugabe would be gone by 6.00 a.m tomorrow.
you must give it to Zimbabwe, unlike Iraq, at almost 1,000,000% inflation, the country still works, atleast as good as any of its neighbours. they still exporting, and go to the market daily without being blown up into pieces
BACLAYS, BRITISH AMERICAN TOBACCO, RIO TINTO, and other great companies are still there UNAFFECTED BY SANCTIONS.
that would be too much, DENYING BRITISH SHAREHOLDERS OF THEIR DIVIDENDS for some mere AFRICANS killed in an election!!!!
.... WORD ON THE STREET HAS IT THAT ANGLO-AMERICAN IS INVESTING $400m IN A NEW PLATINIUM MINE. OOPS.
i'm very pleased that we have SO, Born, Janko etc to read b/w the lines from this silly selfish selective condemnation of violence.
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monday
43 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 14:35:54
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| Your posting is really excellent. Great!!!!!!!!!! |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 19:57:44
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Meme >>
I was tempted to place a reply to the finger-pointing of BornAfrican, Madiba, et al but then thought to myself .... you can't talk intelligently to H.E Jammeh about aids, HIV, homosexuality, etc so what's the point?
Narrow-minds are not just western…..
BornAfrican>> Meme, there’s a saying and it goes: “who feels it knows it”. I’ve felt it in Africa for too long and I know it far too much. To unravel what’s happening in Zimbabwe is no nuclear science. Its as elementary as 1 2 3.
This is the problem with the westerners. You don’t want to take any form of critiques because you are the so-called “civilized” ones. You are the masters so you dictate to the rest of the world. I have spoken to many people here in England about Zimbabwe. People who condemn Mugabe here don’t even know his first name. They don’t even know the capital of Zimbabwe not mentioning her history. It is the nasty media campaign which is the trademark of Britain that is used to influence public opinions. Remember, before you criticize Mugabe; he is the man who shared table with the royalty of this country. He was the child who washed his hands, so he ate with the kings.
It is up to us Africans to take lead in solving our problems. Zimbabwe is an African affair. It is heart breaking to see our leaders converge in Egypt and yet they cannot come out with any solution to Zimbabwe’s problem. instead, they buckled under Western pressure and once again behaved like infants yearning for candy from the West.
It’s unfortunate for you to take my posting personal and call it finger pointing together with postings from rational people on this issue like Njucks, Madiba, and Sister Omega et al.
On issues such as Jammeh’s HIV aids cure and homosexuality; those issues show you problems existing in Africa’s leadership. We have problems and serious ones indeed which no man with all his senses will deny. But I believe, we are the ones who should shape our own destiny and flush the western double standards in our continent down the toilet. You have to understand that the west cannot be honest to Africa or any other continent. Africa’s development will be unfortunate for the west economically. This is one reason why Africa was, and still remained underdeveloped. This is the “dot com” world, where we all compete against each other. Once you know your opponent’s Achilles heels you slash it off. The west cannot be honest to Africa, and I’m not blaming your governments for that but let them stitch their gobs together and mind their own businesses. They are neither superior to us nor intelligent than us.
How merciless the British government is. They have sanctioned ordinary Zimbabweans and starved them to death and still David Milliband is calling for more sanctions. That man is so cold. I wonder if he has any heart.
Gambiabev: Born Africa You think the West is making TOO MUCH FUSS over Mugabe? Unbelievable. There is not ENOUGH fuss!
BornAfrican>> Bev, with all respect, I believe that the West is making too much fuss over Mugabe. I can see you are shocked, but you better believe it. Bev, I used to live in Nigeria. Shevron and Shell have completely destroyed the land in the Niger Delta in collaboration with devils like Nigerian leaders. Here is my point: the Western governments will always say that is a Nigerian problem. It is the Nigerian leadership that should protect the interest of their people and stop Shell and Chevron doing that. Fine and dandy and I agree to that. Obasonjo once ordered the military to annihilate a whole village for standing up to Chevron-Shell exploitation. No one heard about that because he is protecting Western interests in Nigeria. Western governments knew about it. People in the Delta region in Nigeria are some of the poorest people in the world being exploited by western co operations in collaboration with corrupt African leaders but you will never hear about that.
Any day those leaders turn against Shell or Chevron, they will be the next Mugabes.
But the western governments are the civilized ones and the masters. Why can’t they fight for those ordinary poor in the Niger Delta? No they won’t. Its better those people rot in the crude oil contaminated mud in the Delta and let the flow of oil to the West continue. It is simple economics and in fact one of the attributes of man. The Western governments are protecting their interests in Africa and not the interest of Africans.
I am not defending or condoning Mugabe’s acts. I am trying to point out why Britain is crying over Zimbabwe. If people here in England are concerned, they should be demonstrating against the sanctions on Zimbabwe that is killing thousands of Zimbabweans.
If there is one man I will never trust in the world, it is that ugly Morgan Tsvangirai. Britain is fighting so hard for him. If he becomes the president of Zimbabwe, he will have to pay them back. Who knows, it might be with the blood of ordinary Zimbabweans.
It is just like how Mark Thatcher (the son of Margaret Thatcher) sponsored a military coup in Equatorial Guinea using Simon Mann(a former SAS) to depose a democratically elected government and put in a puppet so that they can control the vast natural resources in that country. |
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