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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2008 : 19:00:03
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koto janko, i appreciate your humility and great understanding. a person of your calibre if going by your postings and commentaries are any thing to by, you are no layman. but coming on to the issue at hand, arbaic is not superior to any spoken human language. this was affirmed by the messenger of islam muhammad himself on his farewell pilgrimage speech. "an arab is no better than a non-arab, black is no better than a white and vice versa."
what makes islam differen from other revealed religion is its empahasis on the maintenance of the quran in its arabic text. why was this, ofcourse other prophets and messengers precede islam, e.g christianity,judaism,hindism,buhdism, sorostianism. the quran told of the tanpering of other nations and religious followers changing the text of their holy books. this is evident in christianity in the form of the different council of nicia. the central theme of christianity ,the thrinity was removed and put back in revise standard bible on two occassions. to avoid tampering with the message of God ,muslims are advice to atleast put a minimum effort in learning the ways of understanding the quran in its original language, if one undertood that, you explain it in your mother tongue. but when praying, islam calls for the ummah ( community of muslims) who speak in all languages of the world. to act as a system of general understanding to every muslim, the salah (prayer most be perform in arabic ( the Qurans language) not just a plain arabic language.
an example, if i should enter a mosque in indonesia, even if i don't understand their language, i should be able to attend prayer with them and understand what the imam is saying. a uniting point. the salah most be read in arabic by muslims. new muslims as i have seen in many places are excuse and given a period of time to learn the basics of the Quran.
other faiths like judaism also empahasis the understanding of hewrew. christianity is no more in the language of jesus ,since jesus did not leave a complete system for his deciples, others who later wrote the bible wrote it in different versons. the four different accounts of what jesus actually is suppose to have said.mark,luke,john and another, if fact many other copies where distroyed as inurthentic (the apochripah) this causes christianity to have a roman language as its most widely use in the old days. but english took that mantle away thus the different meanings found in the king james bible, the dovey verson of the catholic, the new international bible ,the jehovah withness and the revise standard and many other bibles. this books aren't translations ,they are conveying the exact message of jesus and paul. islam differenciate itself from that. translations are not the quran's exact message. to be continue with time. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2008 : 01:31:00
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| and all semitic languages originated from africa. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2008 : 16:22:12
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Thanks Santanfara
turk would you please give us a little flesh on the bone on,
"...all semitic languages originated from africa." |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2008 : 21:57:16
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janko, just to add a bit on the african dimention to the sematic languages. i have a close Nigerain friend who is a good drummer for his queer or church musical group. he alway play his own musical group song. and if i remember the lines correctly, this is how its goes " jesus is a wonderful God. jesus is an african God. he was born in africa and preached in middle east." i don't know the exact location of where jesus was born. but many hebrew people of old were in egpt which in africa. and arab became the language of many berber people in north africa.
language is a gate way to people's heart, this is why even missioneries in africa try to learn our local languages first and then commense their fishing of men.the website for mandingo speakers is one of them.
language is so important it open tight close doors in difficult situation. the debate in britain today on citizen test is base on understanding the language. why? if you understand a language, you tend to have some understanding and sympaty. i fully understand your concern janko. Imams in the gambia now conduct the juma kutba or sermon in both Arabic and our local languages. in the old days, when i was in saint georges junior, the Catholics mainly do their sermon in latin and then a little English but the evangalist have given another twist to things. language is what cultures are set arround.i love my islam but i also love my mandingo language and heritage. there is no contradiction. Islam accept and allow local heritages and cultures that don't violate the basic tenet of all revealed religions. that is to associate partners with god or emphasises the concept of inner-self and so on. local dress are maintain in islam. you don't have dune a tie and long sleef to go to mosque. you only wear clean cloths. clean in the sense of purity. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2008 : 23:31:03
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Thanks Santanfara
As you very well observed, culture revitalizes language and language breathe life into culture, the one does not exist without the other. The missionaries learn our languages to serve their purposes of spreading whatever message or political ideologies they may have but never use that knowledge outside the intended agendas.
I find it very interesting that English, French are categorised as colonial languages criticised for alienating Africa from her true self. Nevertheless, Arabic has the same physiological impact, qualifies all criterions to belong to the same category and yet perceived as a Noble and Holly language
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 00:19:34
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the issue of arabic being a holy language is never an autentic statement. no langaue is more holy than the other. language is just a medium of communication.
since you asked about the use of Arabic in the religious context. what is important is the fact that religion is a concept that we cannot equate with our respective cultural practices. for instance, muslims are in every country in the world, they pray the same way,fast the same,pay zakat the same, perform the same pilgrimage and believe in the oneness of god in the understanding. yet, the cultural practices of muslims defer from country to country. this is even stated in the quran as " you are created into nations and tribes" .the language of the conveyor of the message from God is use in the fundamental rituals.
Arabic is important for muslims in the aspect of salah or five daily prayer and understanding all the aspect of that pillar. if one wish to deviate from what the prophet advice concerning that, then one must necessary question his/her own faith in the islamic religion.
where do we set the limit between rational and logical arquement and accepting a religious injunction? this is also vital.
yes, our language is important, yes, it mean the world to us and it encompass our identity but their is trade off. a trade off i mean, using anothers language in practicing a key aspect of our believe. we can do all other things in our language except that. for the sake of our spiritual undertaking, a sacrifice have to made in that one aspect. considering the fact that we don't try to change certain materialistic parts of our life, like we don't change the way a japanise car looks like, we don't change the names of the cars from japan. however difficult it is for us to pronounce the car names we try our best to keep the names as they are. similarly, i believe the sallah should remain in its arabic usage, atempting to change that is tampering with what God's apostle stipulated through the words of God himself. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 04:08:46
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janko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Asiatic_languages
Many people even surprise turkish which is an turki language is belong to altaic language, which is close to Japanese and Korean.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Jun 2008 04:11:24 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 04:21:00
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There are similar debates occurs in Turkey in terms of Turkish and Arabic. As a fluent Turkish speaker and some arabic. I found the arabic is superior to the Turkish. Turkish is very simple. It is very easy, straight forward, but when it comes to science and philosophical expression, it is more limited. The way Arabic sounds, the grammer, the number of words much superiort to Turkish. Remember, in the history, arabic was one of the elite languages and the language of science like latin. For example, the god, 'allah' has 99 different names. In turkish language there is no such concept. The god 'tanri' which is coming from the 'tengri' refer the supreme being. In arabic it may be 'allah', 'rahman', 'rahim', 'kareem' so on. As wolof, mandinka has no alphabet and it is rather spoken, not written language, the arabic just like it has same effect on turkish is more dominant.
When I am talking about IT (my profession) in Turkish, I find it very difficult. Because Turkish does not have words for IT. Would you discuss if LINUX operating System is better than Window in Wolof? No. Is someone more comfortable debating politics in wolof than english. I am not sure.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Jun 2008 07:20:19 |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 14:34:20
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I am not getting involved in this discussion before I am accused again of being anti islam.
Turk
I agree with the general context [or at least some of it] in relation to your last paragraph, however, I am one of those who can discuss politics in either wolof or english and I am sure I am not the only one. For me, 'being comfortable' has nothing to do with it, as long as you know your language well [in its purest form] and have a good idea the issues you want to raise, that's whats important. I understand what you were trying to get at, but if you dont mind me saying your last example was a poor one. We also did have a traditional political system long before the colonisers set foot on African soil. For example, it was through that old political system that gave birth to some of the following titles: Jawdin, Mallo, jogomaye, Saltigue, Jaraff, etc, etc. Most of these dont exist any more. To come back to the point, my late grandmother never attended school but she could hold her own in a political discussion, even more so than many so-called literates. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 10 Jun 2008 14:47:48 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 20:59:24
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quote:
Originally posted by tamsier
I am not getting involved in this discussion before I am accused again of being anti islam.
 hahahha Tamsier i like your entry statement. Anyway the last few contributions are similar to a long thread discussed here about local education in languages.
its a very difficult topic. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 22:49:54
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I am not argueing you can't have a political discussion in wolof. But the wolof language is not developed as english. Especially younger generation or gambian who are more intellect, when they talk about they tend to rely on english words more. There are not as many as book written in wolof. It is spoken language. There are no funding to develop the language.
What are the words in wolof: Asimilation, integration, Marginalization, Democracy, stagflation, rahman, yoghurt, internet, software, allah.
The ottoman empire, during 600 years, the arabic and the persion language became the language of scientist, elite and government officials. It is because, the nomadic turkic language was not dominant enough even though Turks was majority and they were in power. The turkish alphabet was less efficient and arabic was used until Kamal Ataturk start using roman alphabet.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 10 Jun 2008 22:56:52 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 23:15:46
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Thanks Santanfara,
what personalities do you think grows in an environment where one goes about his/her daily business in one language (colonial) and the spiritual in another (Arabic)? Where and when do we do things with our own languages in such a circumstance?
It is very interesting to observe that in the discussion of so called “colonial languages” we argue that we need English and French to be in the game, to function in the scheme of things and in the discussion of our spirituality argue that we need Arabic to practice our faith. What then are we left with?
Thanks turk,
it is one thing the Semitic languages belong in the same language-group as some African languages but quite another to say; “all Semitic languages originated from Africa.
Thanks tamsier,
for an elaborative example. Politics in Gambia (Africa) did not start with the presence of colonialism; rather it had been there since time began.
Thanks njucks,
yes, it is not an easy topic, my fear is that our languages have lost all meaningfulness in both our daily and spiritual practises . It seems as if one has value if one is able to speak English, French, Arabic and insignificant when one speaks our languages. What is the consequence of that on a peoples´ self pride and self consciousness?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 00:54:40
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"what personalities do you think grows in an environment where one goes about his/her daily business in one language (colonial) and the spiritual in another (Arabic)? Where and when do we do things with our own languages in such a circumstance?
It is very interesting to observe that in the discussion of so called “colonial languages” we argue that we need English and French to be in the game, to function in the scheme of things and in the discussion of our spirituality argue that we need Arabic to practice our faith. What then are we left with?" janko.
janko, from the start, i made it clear that our languages are very important. as humans, we are blessed with the faculties to understand and use multiple modes of communication. that is why, speech is only a tiny part of actual communication. for me as a muslim, i balance my life between things i value for my here and now life and my spiritual well-being. i don't consider using Arabic for my prayer and other islamic activity as a sign of abandoning my mother tongue to a large degree. after all, the total percentage time utilise for prayers a day is less than 1hour. now one hour a day for a spiritual food isn't bad in my book.
the bulk of our communication is in our mother tongues and this is expected. so, balancing a spiritual life and normal life is the key. and the spiritual always take the backseat to the majority.i am not worried about a little Arabic for Sallah or prayer not invocations.
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 10:46:55
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Turk i think all languages at all times take words from other languages. the richness of a language depends on its level of contact with others to a large extend.its like asking what is the Arabic word for software,hardware,Astronaut, website, internet?
Janko, to take your point further, in some African countries for example political debate in local languages is allowed in the Parliament.e.g. in Senegal MPs are allowed to asked/answer/debate in Wollof. |
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tamsier
United Kingdom
558 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 13:04:56
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Turk
As I said, I agree with the general context of your last paragraph, so lets not go over-board. Your so called development of the English language over the Wolof language is due to the fact that, the English language borrowed more words and phrases from other languages compared to the Wolof language. I refer you to Njuck's last posting who summed it up beautifully. As regards to the Gambian youths reliance on the english language, there are at least two motifs here:
1. to show that they are literate in english [the colonial language]
2. cultural change - of their generation. Perhaps linked to the above to some extend. For example, literate Gambians [not all] tend to mock/look down upon those supposed literates who can't speak the English language properly. I defended Mbaye on this very issue couple of months back. I was so furious I had to write in to remind those people that English is not his mother tongue - he had to learn it.
I draw your attention to the fact that, just because someone can speak english does not necessarily mean that they are literate. There are lots of English people who cant read or write. Furthermore, the words you gave as examples do not trace their origin from English. Some of them are Arabic and the others follow the principles of etymology and trace their origin to Latin, Greek and Hindu. The technological terms: internet and software are new to the english language. For example, you would not have found them in the english vocabulary 100 years ago - the same holds true for wolof. Further, they are a mixture of words and some of those words trace decent to Greek and Latin. As I said, I am not going to get involved in this discussion I just felt that I had to write in to correct an example you gave. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 11 Jun 2008 13:19:33 |
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