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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 13:07:44
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a new book .a good look at the french establishment .very good book
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8497.html
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 13:11:31
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The Politics of the Veil
Joan Wallach Scott
In 2004, the French government instituted a ban on the wearing of "conspicuous signs" of religious affiliation in public schools. Though the ban applies to everyone, it is aimed at Muslim girls wearing headscarves. Proponents of the law insist it upholds France's values of secular liberalism and regard the headscarf as symbolic of Islam's resistance to modernity. The Politics of the Veil is an explosive refutation of this view, one that bears important implications for us all.
Joan Wallach Scott, the renowned pioneer of gender studies, argues that the law is symptomatic of France's failure to integrate its former colonial subjects as full citizens. She examines the long history of racism behind the law as well as the ideological barriers thrown up against Muslim assimilation. She emphasizes the conflicting approaches to sexuality that lie at the heart of the debate--how French supporters of the ban view sexual openness as the standard for normalcy, emancipation, and individuality, and the sexual modesty implicit in the headscarf as proof that Muslims can never become fully French. Scott maintains that the law, far from reconciling religious and ethnic differences, only exacerbates them. She shows how the insistence on homogeneity is no longer feasible for France--or the West in general--and how it creates the very "clash of civilizations" said to be at the root of these tensions.
The Politics of the Veil calls for a new vision of community where common ground is found amid our differences, and where the embracing of diversity--not its suppression--is recognized as the best path to social harmony.
Joan Wallach Scott is the Harold F. Linder Professor in the School of Social Science at the Institute for Advanced Study. Her books include Parite!: Sexual Equality and the Crisis of French Universalism and Gender and the Politics of History.
Reviews:
"Scott does a good job of conveying the hysteria that surrounded the foulard debate in France...Scott's broad and exhaustive research makes for a bracing account of the debate."--Laila Lalami, The Nation
"Veil-bashing is suddenly socially acceptable among not merely tabloid-reading Little Englanders, but also metropolitan sophisticates...Why should a bit of cloth so threaten the French republic? That is the central question posed by [this] subtle new study...Many French commentators cast the debate about the veil as an issue about Muslims, Islam and integration. Scott, a distinguished historian at Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study, shows that it revealed rather more about the French themselves."--Carla Power, New Statesman
Endorsements:
"Brilliant, crisp, and cogently argued. Joan W. Scott's novel and trenchant discursive analysis exposes the prejudices of the reductionist French versions of secularism and feminism regarding Islam and French Muslims from North African and Arab origins. The study is illuminating far beyond the French case, as former colonial and/or working subjects struggle for integration and recognition of their difference."--Abdellah Hammoudi, Princeton University
"Carefully argued, insightful and humane, Joan Scott's The Politics of the Veil is far and away the best account of France's identity crisis that was signaled by the famous headscarf affair. The final chapter, on the symbolic meanings of the headscarf/veil, is the most original and brilliant piece of writing that I have read on this topic. This is an indispensable book, transcending the particularity of French obsessions and forcing the reader to think about wider political problems that concern us all."--Talal Asad, author of On Suicide Bombing |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Alhassan
Sweden
813 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 14:08:43
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Santanfara,
I think the Europeans have a complex with the Veil. We have to accept the individual differences so as to live happily. In Sweden there has been a debate and now I think it is accepted. Those concerned here argued and came up with genuin points. In Sweden the Swedish people and a good number of Irians who have converted to christianity have given the women and girls with viels a tough time before acceptance. Even employesr and employees have been going to cort just for the sake of the veil and turban. There was a problem with the Siks from India in Göteborg for wearing a turban during working hours but the Sik has the right to wear his turban. Before in hospitals and klinicks Swedish people complained of disturbance and all nonsens. After a taught debate and the bravery of the ones who wear the Viel and turban the were correct. Now there are uniforms in som depertmebnts with viels.
France has to accept it too. It is a human right.
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 16:23:44
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It is the fearsome! which will not be avoided ,The Worms is already in the nuts .
I follows one radio talks one day about EU and Bosnia -Herzegovina's /kosovo problems from one(frei journalist) free journalist.
He said, Is not that they dont have a solutions to it but not will to solve it, meanly there are some point which have to do with Islam, while majority's are Muslims.
And that the problems should solves since 18 centuries, but they always played it down, it was just cooled down when soviet were there.
He said imagine one day, some one standing in EU parliament and starts rising the prohabitations of Islam, Or sending women back to the kitchen.
What a great it will be if some of EU members take a example from the Scandinavians.
Why holding turkey still back to join them?
I think we know why.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2008 : 21:16:48
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One should not be surprised, one of the strongest neo-nazi party in Europe (I think Le Pen got close to 20 % support once) is in France. Especially considering most brutal colonialist in Africa i.e. Algeria, France perspective towards muslims based on two important factors. 1. Racism, 2. Radical Secularism
That is one of the reason why immigrants in France have the most difficulty to integrate French Society. We all know about France usually suffer from superiority complex. I remember French President walk out from an EU meeting, because a French delegation has spoken in English instead of French.
The second factor is important as French Secularism being very radical (in French, the word for Secularism is 'Laic'.) Secularism defined as the seperation of State and Religion. The school of liberal secularism states that government should not be influenced by religion, however, individuals do not have to be secular. The school of radical secularism as we see in France, Communist China, Kayjatta, Soviet Union, Turkey also want to control the individuals to be secular. Government agents can be religious, but they can't be religious when they are using their government power. So students are receiving government service should not obey government's secular principles as long as they are receiving the government service. Secularism principle should be applied when government officers make decision based on religion. Many other countries in Europe support the liberal definition of Secualism. France seem like still want to be facist government.
I think Turkey's entry will be great for EU to avoid clash of civilization and one of the biggest peace project of the century. Bosnia, Kosova, Albania, 2 Million Turks in Bulgaria, already millions of Muslim immigrants in Europe plus 80 Million of Turks will be great addition to EU population and culture. After all we are all children of Abraham.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 08:15:25
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To me geographically and socially Turkey is the link between East and West and it will be fascinating to see the impact membership has on the EU.
Personally I would like to see all schools be humanitarian palaces, where morals and good standards are taught SEPARATLEY from religion.
Pupils should be taught about ALL the main world religions and be given freedom to choose. There should be NO compulsion in religion, it should be from the individuals heart.
We should be tolerant of each others choices. Therefore a Muslim should be able to wear the veil, if it is freely chosen and a Christian should be able to wear a crucifix.
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 09:09:23
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| I wonder where that country called 'Kayjatta' can be found.... |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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toubab1020
12314 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 13:58:29
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Quite near to Sweden I think. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 21:57:09
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Bev
quote:
I would like to see all schools be humanitarian palaces, where morals and good standards are taught SEPARATLEY from religion.
Why? Humanitarianism is not a monopol for the moral values. Why would not individuals to choose what moral values to follow? Why would you dictate secular view to the mess. Individuals must have freedom to choose moral values from agnostism, humanitarism, christianity, budism or islam.
it is kind of confusing. you said 'given freedom to choose...individuals heart' than 'moral must be taught seperately from religion'. Contridiction. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 08:29:09
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People can choose whatever religion they want, but one religious practice shouldnt dictate in a school. I think schools should be secular places. You can have religious education about many religions, but that is very different from being forced to follow a religious practice.
Religious education for your preferred choice can take place in the Mosque or church or temple and home.
This doesnt mean that schools shouldnt be moral places giving guidance on citizernship and social skills. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 09:44:55
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Thanks Anna, Kayjatta is here, just a little busy with other things. You see there are a lot of conspiracy theories about how the West denied the integration of foreigners, but the reality is that those who want to integrate do actually integrate. Although sociological findings have supported the tendency of immigrants in a society to cluster together and live the same way they lived in their places of origin. This phenomenon is even evident in Africa when many rural people move into urban centers or when other nationalities moved into foreign countries. Therefore, names like GhanaTown in the Gambia, ChinaTown in New York, Little Havana in Miami are pretty common.They stay in their little communes, speak their native languages, shop from only their lacal grocery and meat stores, sometimes build and attend their own schools, and in some cases avoid the dominant culture as much as possible. This is what constitute a refusal to integrate, and yet they blame the West for their failure to fit into European and American societies. This is what a Mexican friend of mine who is a court interpreter for Spanish speaking people, tell many Hispanics. He often tell them to go learn English and get involved .My wife was narrating a story at her work place, a retail store where an Asian couple and their son came shopping. The parents were trying to talk to the boy in what sounded like Chinese, and every time he responede to them in English while also on the phone talking to what might be his friends and his pants falling off knee-low. It is hard to live on the margins of a society. So the way forward is to integrate actively. I do not see much sense in insisting on wearing your traditional dress/clothes to work even though they may not be appropriate for the conditions at work.
The fact of the matter however is that when you live in a foreign country, you are not there to takeover their culture but rather to live amicably within their culture. Afterall if you think your culture is so superior to your host country, you probably should stay in your country. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 05 Feb 2008 09:59:07 |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 11:06:50
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Ai Kayjatta, with this last sentence you stepped willingly into the room where the politically incorrect people live  ! |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 11:46:24
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| Confused integration with asimilation? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 11:54:12
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quote:
I think schools should be secular places.
Yes. That is why religion should be in school too. That is what liberal secularism is. Religion has value too. It is another perspective about life. A liberal secularism let people learn about life from different perspectives. Strict secularism, or fascism world experienced in soviet union with stalin, china with mao dictates the only one perspective. Agnostism. Holly or not, religion IS part of human civilization.
What is wrong with students to learn from great personalities like Mohammed, Jesus, Budha, Aristo, Engels, Ibn'sina, al-harezmi, gazali, rumi. Don't they have anything to offer to us?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 05 Feb 2008 11:57:26 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 13:33:32
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There is nothing wrong in learning about great people in history. There is nothing wrong with learning about religions. Most schools do offer a religious education course of study but it is not indoctrination into a particular religion. The religion is taught as a subject with different view points and opinions, not as fact.
Philosophy and religion are very interesting subjects and if taught well are very relevant to our pupils.
In school we should not be teaching the Koran or Bible as FACTS, but as a book that is special to a religion.So I would say the bible is important to Christians, this is a story from the bible. Christians believe this happened. Or this is a passage from the Koran, Muslims believe this. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 21:03:46
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Koran or Bible ARE NOT FACTS, what are you talking about? You are confused with faith and science. Religion must be taught in schools as electives. Parents/students choose the subject based on their interests. For example, if school can afford following courses are offered in the school and student elect to study one of them.
- Islam
- Christianity
- Greek Philosophy
- Ateism
- World Religion
Why would anyone be forced to study the subject they have no interests? What is wrong with a parent sending school that has courses for particular religion? I noticed you only see the negatives of religion and destroy all the bridges? You remind me the ban on hijab defenders in Turkey. They say, there are women (above 18) wears hijab because of their faith, there are also women wear hijab because of political reason. Than let us ban on hijab for everyone because some wear hijab as political ideology. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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