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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 01:11:50
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mansasulu
quote:
Kay, I think you are confusing an Islamic Theocracy to a Muslim Country. These two are very different. Muslims make up the majority in the Gambia, and therefore it is a defacto muslim country. Now, that does not in anyway mean that muslims own Gambia. What it means that the cultural and spiritually mores of Gambia is heavily influenced by that of its dominant religion, which is islam.
True. Kay, as usual confused about islam and politics. Secularism has two perspective, one is seperation of government from religion. Also, respecting and protecting peoples religious rights as well. It is so natural, government must consider the local social and cultural values when it governs. There are different prioirties and realities for gambia. It is like someone goes gambia and talk about 'gay rights'. Not a priority, not a need, not a match to local culture. Western civilization is based on, very often they called, judeo-christian- christian values. One can't disgard the values of people when governing.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 24 Nov 2007 01:16:03 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 10:22:14
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not worth discussing, hypothetical...? and then you discuss it in detail!
anyway, nothing wrong with hypotheses.lots of things started ith hypotheses - the world is flat, mathematics etc
the figures re tourism that i used are a guess, and i said as much. it was simply to show that tourism is a huge forex importer. you are entirely wrong about the average spend of £25. most people i have met there would spend that on themselves in one night.no-one would go there with a weekly spending budget of £175, not these days when a taxi to anywhere now costs 3-4 pounds, a meal is a fiver , tourisat activities and trips start at £40 a trip, etc etc.
money for accommodation and flights are not part of the import. they, as you say, go to everybody except gambians. it is the local spend that matters, and whatever proportion of the total holiday spend is used locally comes to a significant anmount of money...and then there is craft markets, serrekunda markets, local entertainment etc etc.
it all adds up to a significant spend. And let's not forget the amount of backhanders that are flying about. that alone is enough to keep the councillors and ministers eager to have tourism.
so it is , in fact, not really hypothetical as it is there , on the ground, and happening. a conflict between seculo-religious mores and cash! |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 12:43:36
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lurker
quote:
it was simply to show that tourism is a huge forex importer. you are entirely wrong about the average spend of £25. most people i have met there would spend that on themselves in one night.no-one would go there with a weekly spending budget of £175, not these days when a taxi to anywhere now costs 3-4 pounds, a meal is a fiver , tourisat activities and trips start at £40 a trip, etc etc.
I may be wrong about 25 pounds per day, but there is a scientific study and one of the findings is that
"Respondents that participated in the 2000/1 stratified hotel intercept survey spent, on average, 596 Dalasis (£25) per person per day."
http://www.responsibletourismpartnership.org/publications/Improving%20Access%20for%20Informal%20Sector%20Gambia.pdf
Anyway, tourism in gambia is joke which is not worth giving away our values. It is a old-style-imperialism. Gambia and its citizen does not get much. Investors, monarch steal the money. and lurker tell gambians the dirty side of 'globalization'. Also all the counciller and minster eager to have tourism to satisfy the 'globalization agents'.
While gambians do not get much tourism, they also pay social costs
- bumpsterism
- illusion of going abroad is the ONLY WAY out of misery
- Import of pop culture, consumerism
- Pedophiles, tourists coming for sex
so when you consider the fact that gambians don't get much from tourism and pay the social cost due to unhealthY tourism sector, IT IS NOT WORTH TO LOSE OUR VALUES FOR CASH.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 13:00:15
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I would like to go back to Lurker's comment
"ok, so now back to the question - is it wrong for a muslim country to allow the flagrant disregard of its own laws in the pursuit of the tourist dollar/pound/euro?"
i ask this question of you "what are the laws of Gambia", if you say no alchol, close th hotels/restaurants. Lurker you have travelled and you know most tourist destinations that are muslim these issues have been addressed and handled sensible.
Egypt is a classic example, a muslim country that has tourism. hotels are in tourist areas and closely monitored. Alchol is sold in licenced premises normally dute free shops, beach/trousit trips are licenced and monitored. has that put tourist off, now because they now what to expect and they get repeat tourism.
i say again tourism does bring income into gambia, CAN I ASK FOR AN ECONOMIC major to work out how much gambia would loose if the tourists stopped going.
All gambia has to do is clean up the senegambia/baku/kolio areas, people go to gambia for the first time because they have heard it is a "true african coutnry,safe and welcoming".
i for one would hate to see this change, but changing it is.
Lurker you mention you first went 17 years ago, the visitors then prbably stayed in gambian owned hotels, african village, cape point etc and were happy, a different kind of traveller etc. now it is the package person, looking for two weeks winter sun. gambia can cater for them, but they should stop the rot now. The games arcade in Senegambia is nonsense who needs it, the government allows it. What next topless beaches, STOP IT NOW. A different marketing stragety would help,
anyway, we here in Bantaba land now what is needs but Lurker needs to look to the ministers for his answers. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 14:15:30
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jambo,the tourism has changed from what i can see.
i think that a lot of europeans do go for the african experience, as you say. but i think they would not go if it was a non-alcoholic area with no bars, clubs etc.i agree that the arcade is a silly idea,and there is topless bathing already - at senegambia for sure.
if you are going to create an environment for the tourists that encourages repeat tourism, then the creators of this cannot be blamed for laying on the things that they perceive to be a tourists "holiday needs". how far they go in the pursuit may be an issue, but it is hardly surprising that some bright spark put up the arcade. i have to admit having been in there last year and lost a few pounds. it is what people do from our culture.
this is an integral part of a toubabs leisure time on holiday. thus, if you removed these outlets, lots of them would go elsewhere. the sex thing has definitely become more overt and easily-accessed. this is not a paedophile issue i am referring to , it is the consensual sex and "picking up " of partners that i mean. the owners of the cafes seem to let the hookers and gigolos congregate in their premises. they have no care for the appearance of the place when littered with hustlers, and as to how that will affect its patronage by the decent-minded tourists. i have talked to ali baba many times about this, and his son. the bottom line is they a) don't care b) get a lot of custom over a year, albeit in dribs and drabs, from this custom. furthermore, it is my belief that the type of toubab who is out for a good time with local girls and boys tend to be drinkers, smokers and spenders - as opposed to a carefully budgeting family of 4, for example. they will treat their "guests" and all their friends and the total spend can be bigger than that of a family of four who have small meals and a few soft drinks and go back to their hotel. these others sit and spend til 2 am, then go clubbing and then go home for whatever. ali babs, for example, is the absolute hub of this trade, and now dolphins and the other places. but it is a lot of peoples idea of fun to sit and watch all this nonsense go on,even if they are not involved. different outlooks.
i think that the family-orientated tourists move from place to place every night to look for different eating experiences. the funsters know where they can do their thing and return all the time to the same few venues. Ali baba has never really banned the bumsters, the hookers or hustlers. i have watched hundreds of tourists leave the place and look discomforted after watching drunk rastas mouthing off or being aggressive, or catfights between girls scrapping over some fat, balding lardars- , . if the family-type revenue was the revenue of greatest magnitude, ali baba would surely have banned the bad lot a long time ago.
the tourism in gambia would now be almost impossible to alter radically. it could be subtley altered , but subtlety has bever been a forte of the ministry for tourism in my time.
you know what, maybe people who do not like this should just not go and look at it! those who want to change it from a moral or religious point of view are the people i was talking about in the beginning of this thread. i do not believe they ever will manage as the income from tourism is way too far into the pockets of the corrupt to ever let them think about morals. i think Turk is quite wrong about dismissing the level of income so lightly.
anyway, maybe your economic major, or a tourism stats man can give us more accurate figures.
the reconciliation of these pursuits to the morals of the host nation is a very difficult issue.
the ministers cannot be expected to discuss this rationally and with respect to the majority position as they have their greasy hands shoved in the tills of the mechanism. too good to turn away.
either way. i miss the place! |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 14:20:29
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turk, it is not worth losing your values for the cash return, but yet it still happens!and all the locals who make money directly from tourism are still doing it and it must be paying or they would be trying to find the few, lousy paid jobs that are around. it is easier to be a hooker than a chambermaid on D800 a month. it is a harsh reality of tourist areas in the world over. also, the level of entertainment has increased since that report in 2001 as have the costs of all commodities.
ps your daughter cannot be the next president as my son is going to be ....... |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 14:55:10
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lurker, if you equate what is happening in ali baba you are correct, i watch what is going on and they definately put money before right or wrong, as long peopel are spending, long live the tourists. they are catering for the market that is on the door step and want to spend. they put up big screens for football and charge okay. but the rest that follows, is wrong, wrong for the locals definatley. a long time ago i wrote about feeling sad at what was happenign in this tourist area, i first stayed in tafbel which at that time was a respected gambian owned hotel, what happened MONEY, TOUR OPERATORS ETC MAKE DEMANDS, AT LEAST THE OTHER HOTELS STOP GUESTS TAKING VISITORS INTO THE ROOMS.
BUT GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION HOW COULD YOU SEPARATE IT.
"If the Gambia is a self-professed Muslim country, which practices Islam and is (rightly) proud of this, then how can it reconcile its tolerance of the sale of alcohol to tourists?
How can it reconcile its tolerance of the open male and female prostitution in the tourist areas?(forget the knee-jerk occasional bribe-raising forays into Senegambia by the Army)", it is an accepted fact that tourists want to drink alchol , you cannot separate it.
you talk about Saudi Arabia, but that is not a "holiday" destination in the sens that other muslim countries are.
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 15:00:17
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jambo, i only mentioned saudi as it is a country with a muslim belief system and they ban almost everything. personally, as i said, i find it repugnant and would not hold them up as an example to anyone. it was friends in the discussion who mentioned them as an example of Islamic practice and then wondered why Gambia is not the same. these points have been addressed well in this discussion. i will be relating them to the same people later tonight.
my abiding memory of this thread is the seemingly obvious answer to the question posed- the love of money is the root of all evil. |
Edited by - lurker on 24 Nov 2007 15:00:57 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 11:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay, I think you are confusing an Islamic Theocracy to a Muslim Country. These two are very different. Muslims make up the majority in the Gambia, and therefore it is a defacto muslim country. Now, that does not in anyway mean that muslims own Gambia. What it means that the cultural and spiritually mores of Gambia is heavily influenced by that of its dominant religion, which is islam.
You are right in your observation of my claim that poverty was brought about by our losing our way. You mentioned our constitution, you and I both know that Yahya Jammeh is the law in Gambia so backing your arguments on a constitution that is utterly irrelevant is as hollow as one can imagine.
We may not be a muslim country de jure but we are defacto. For 42 years we have been living in poverty and we cant seem to know why. We can talk political or economic reforms all we want. The point of the matter is the system we have does not suit our spiritual and cultural ethos.
Mansasulu, if you simply mean that the majority of the Gambians are Muslims, I will agree with you on that. But if you even suggest that the Islamic way of life is the controlling factor in Gambian affairs, I beg to differ with with.
You claimed above that the Gambia is a "defacto Muslim country", and then you also said that "we are in poverty because we have departed our Islamic ways". Don't you see a contradiction in those two statements.
You said , the Gambia is a Muslim country 'in practice' (defacto) but not 'by law' (de jure). Well you know the Gambia is a legal and political entity as esrtablished by the constitution of the Gambia. In essence , all Gambians have entered into a contract with one another as expressed in the constitution that the Gambia is a secular country independent of all sectarian groups of religious and ethnic nature. This guarantee of equality of diverse groups of people in the Gambia is what resulted in the peaceful co-existence of our people for all these years.Whether Jammeh violates the constitution or not is immaterial to this argument and to the legal authority of the constitution. To turn around now and start calling the Gambia a 'Muslim country' is a slap in the face of all Gambians. When you say that the Gambia is a Muslim country, I construe it to mean that Muslim and Islamic interest forms the priority in our political and social policy, if not legal policy. If this is what you mean, then it is very worrying. It is worrying because it could mean the start of an idea of intolerance similar to what obtained in parts of northern Nigeria where Muslims formed the majority and overhauled their legal system to exclude all minorities
resulting in chronic intermittent social upheavals.
I do not see the need for calling the Gambia a Muslim country, because we all know it is predominantly Muslim but that has little comparative advantage on our public policy. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 25 Nov 2007 11:49:31 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 15:40:41
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There is nothing contradictory in what I stated. It seems your problem is with Islam. Anytime your eyes read muslim you see Islam in your head.Islam and Muslim are not synonymous. If your understanding trandsends these two concepts, perhaps I can have a conversation with you, but as it is now it appears you are wasting my time.
You mentioned Northern Nigeria and yet again failed to take into account that it was through a referendum instead of a mere "overhaul" that the people of Northern Nigeria overwhelming passed measures to adopt Shariah as a from of government. It was not forced down their throats, so I find it very disturbing that you blame muslims for the problems in Northen Nigeria. Since when did it become undemocratic for public policy to reflect the will of the majority? The majority of people in Northern Nigeria made a choice, soit is imperitive for the rest of the world to respect that. May Allah strengthen them in their will and convictions. You are entitled to your opinions, but you dont have to ignore facts.
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"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 07:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
[quote]
It seems your problem is with Islam. Anytime your eyes read muslim you see Islam in your head.Islam and Muslim are not synonymous. If your understanding trandsends these two concepts, perhaps I can have a conversation with you, but as it is now it appears you are wasting my time.
Oh oh , he is attacking me now personally. But without wasting your 'valuable time' Mansasulu, let me make some reassurances here. I have no problem with religion whatsoever. I have consistently alluded to the immense importance of religion and faith to human civilization on this forum. Until the advancement of modern science, religion has been perhaps the single most important influence on human history. So I think for anyone to ignore the importance and influence of religion (which is mostly positive but sometimes negative) is in fact to cut one self from history. It would appear immoral and intellectually suicidal to dissociate one self from such historical forces.
But the Gambia has chosen a way of life-a secular way of life- from the day of independence in 1965 i guess. The election of Sir Dawda, a non-muslim at the time (I believe)in favor of even Garba Jahumpa's Muslim Party (could someone correct me on this, please? I have been away a while, my facts might be a little rusty here) and the rejection of Gaddaffi's offer of a development aid package if Banjul Breweries , a symbol of a non-Islamic society (now a crucial part of tourism as reference to Lurker's comments)is demolished.
My problem though honestly is with FUNDAMENTALISTS of ALL religious groups. Those who flagrantly ignore the historical and democratic precedence of separation of state and church. Those who wear the faith on their sleeves and use it as an argument to set public policy of anarchy by the majority. Those who see the world purely as a conflict between the faithful and the infidel.
This is why I am convinced that you and I cannot have a conversation, we can only argue. From those who attempt to claim Gambia as a muslim country whose poverty is a result of its rejection of her Islamic hereitage, to those pro-creationists who attempt to force the teaching of the so-called 'intelligent design' in biology classes, and the symbolic proclamation of personal faith in public institutions, I can only offer an argument for you. No coversation.
Thanks for your dear time, I'm sure we'll meet again.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/confspeech.html |
Edited by - kayjatta on 26 Nov 2007 11:15:01 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 11:08:33
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quote:
My problem though honestly is with FUNDAMENTALISTS of ALL religious groups. Those who flagrantly ignore the historical and democratic precedence of separation of state and church.
Perhaps mansasulu is frustrated because, when it comes to Islam, you sound like a broken record, repeat the same islamophobic, paranoid, stalinst fascist view, people are really getting tired of it.
What about radical ateism and agnostism? Fundamentalism is not only based on religions. Mao, Stalin, Hitler were fundamentalist too. I notice your radical views mostly specifically on Islam. There are other fundamentalist religions like Christianity, hinduism, ortodox judaism. Seem like you are picking on Islam only (you are ignore the fact that, christians in nigeria is not exactly treating muslims with so much love), seems like you are not only stalinst secular also islamophobic.
Gambia is nowhere close to islamic state while they have very strong islamic presence in the society which is nothing wrong. Even western countries respect religion, 'in god we trust', 'using bible during trial','christmas', 'easter holiday', 'cris cros in the court', '10 commandments in court', 'reference to God, Jesus in constitution'. In Ireland, in italy, in Spain several western countries did not reject their religious all over. There is nothing wrong with government favoring the religion of the majority when they govern.
For tourism, Gambians do not have to lose their values and choose money over religion or other way around. Tourism, commerce of tourism, or area of tourism can be governed exception based. For example, the alcohol license legislation for senegambia would be different from serekunda. The challanges lurker presents are always good opportunities for solutions in politics.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 15:37:14
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| Kay, you may huff and puff all you want but your motives are known to everyone on the forum. I am not enamoured by whatever intellectual self gratification you want to engage in. Spare me from your lectures about the importance of religion on human history! The facts remain that Gambia is a muslim country and its future is islam because secularism, pantheism or whatever you are trying to espouse is not going to prevail. The fact remains that we have been living in poverty as a nation since independence and somehow you still fail to wrap your head around the fact that we are heading the wrong way. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 20:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
Kay, you may huff and puff all you want but your motives are known to everyone on the forum. I am not enamoured by whatever intellectual self gratification you want to engage in. Spare me from your lectures about the importance of religion on human history! The facts remain that Gambia is a muslim country and its future is islam because secularism, pantheism or whatever you are trying to espouse is not going to prevail. The fact remains that we have been living in poverty as a nation since independence and somehow you still fail to wrap your head around the fact that we are heading the wrong way
"We are heading the wrong way"? Wow, which way should we be heading? Can you show us the right way?
Could you give details of what kind of Gambia you are romanticising? May be then I shall not lecture you again  . |
Edited by - kayjatta on 26 Nov 2007 22:12:05 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 19:09:23
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| YOU mean can I show "YOU" the right way, because it appears you are the only person who is asleep. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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