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lurker

509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 10:33:04
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ok, so now back to the question - is it wrong for a muslim country to allow the flagrant disregard of its own laws in the pursuit of the tourist dollar/pound/euro? |
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kayjatta

2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 10:41:46
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The Gambia is not a Muslim country. It is a secular country.Prostituion , I think is outlawed in the Gambia just like it is in all U.S. states except Nevada, but alcohol is allowed by the laws of the Gambia. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 21 Nov 2007 10:43:53 |
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lurker

509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 10:45:57
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so please clarify for me. a country which is 98% muslim, which is run by muslims, but does not have sharia law, is actually NOT a muslim country? it is a secular country , run by muslims, and therefore the religon of the masses and of central govt has no relation to the law of the land?
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kayjatta

2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 10:54:01
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The Gambia is "not ran by Muslims", and it is not ran by Islamic law. The Gambia is ran by "Gambians" without consideration of religious belief. Muslims are the majority in the Gambia, but the laws of the Gambia and the business of government including the economic and social models are not based on Islamic law and principles. |
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lurker

509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 11:01:54
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thanks.i accept this constitutionally, obviously. i just happen to think that the issue here would ordinarily be influenced by the majority religious position of the people in charge, so there might be a "religious conscience" regarding the theme of this thread, if not a religious legal imposition. clearly, from what you say about the secularity of rule in gambia, there would be no legal right for religion to be involved in these issues whatsoever. that is very interesting. |
Edited by - lurker on 21 Nov 2007 11:05:34 |
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kayjatta

2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 11:12:06
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Thanks Lurker. It is like in the U.S. where the majority of the people are christians, but nobody can take that christianity to the White House,or the legislature, the Judiciary or other public institutions like schools. It is a secular country by law... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 21 Nov 2007 11:22:29 |
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mansasulu

997 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 14:50:20
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quote: Originally posted by kayjatta
The Gambia is not a Muslim country. It is a secular country.Prostituion , I think is outlawed in the Gambia just like it is in all U.S. states except Nevada, but alcohol is allowed by the laws of the Gambia.
The Gambia is defacto Muslim country because it has a muslim majority. It has a secular constitution which calls it a secular state, but how often is that constitution respected. So without delving into any of the constitutional legalese, the reality is that the Gambia is a Muslim country because islamic culture and mores are the most dominant in the Gambia. Likewise, the United states is inpractice a christian country.
Lurker, we are following our own laws (the laws we made). This where the heart of the problem is. We have convinced ourselves that without Tourism and Panhandling we cannot survive as a nation. More often, people try so hard to blame bumsterism because of poverty but we fail to ask why we are poor in the first place? |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 21 Nov 2007 14:55:56 |
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lurker

509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 15:02:40
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that question would be asked by a respectable statesman, an honest politician, a person with the fate of his people at heart. then progress could be made. alas, most politicians have no interest in the people who voted them in. they love simply money, power and themselves. i happen to think that you are right and that Gambia is a Muslim country in all but its official stance constitutionally for the reasons i stated before. this is what a lot of people think, maybe incorrectly, and this is why the debate started about lax moral fortitude when it comes to losing hard cash! |
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kayjatta

2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2007 : 07:22:48
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The Gambia cannot be claimed as a Muslim country. True the majority of the people of the Gambia are Muslims, but the Gambia as a political and legal entity as reflected in its laws and public institutions has a life of its own distinct from Islamic theocracy. Although Muslims are the majority, the Gambia consists of diverse groups of people with different religious, ethnic, and cultural persuations. To claim the Gambia as a Muslim country because of its Muslim majority makes it legitimate by extension to also call it a Mandingo country because mandingos form the majority of the country. Is Iraq a ****e country, for example? But you will all agree that that claim would equally be wrong if for nothing else but the evidence that despite their majority, Mandingos do not dominate political power in the Gambia. Mansasulu's claim of 'Muslim majority' equating Muslim ownership of the Gambia is similar to the claim of the so-called 'moral majority' that seeks to establish U.S. as a christian country. You do not have to read Dr. Ali A. Mazrui to appreciate that the Gambia, like much of Africa, in deed has a triple heritage. So what you have in the Gambia is a cultural heritage of Western, Arab, and indigenous influence. Gambian culture is a hybridized culture of these various factors. My understanding is that the Gambia is established by the constitution as a LEGAL and POLITICAL entity that has distanced itself from any religious or ethnic grouping. It is a SECULAR country that guarantees everyone to belief and practice or not to belief and practice any faith of their choice. Also Mansasulu seems to suggest that the Gambia's poverty is a 'divine intervention' because we have departed our way. I disagree.The Gambia's poverty and other problems are a result of the economic and socio-political choices we have all made as Gambians.With appropriate political and economic reforms, I believe the Gambia can be set on a sound footing for progress and development. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 22 Nov 2007 07:24:18 |
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lurker

509 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2007 : 08:19:06
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good response. valid points. can someone now outline what such a sound footing could be ? |
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kayjatta

2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2007 : 09:10:22
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quote: Originally posted by lurker
good response. valid points. can someone now outline what such a sound footing could be ?
You know I still believe in Nkrumah's maxim, "seek ye the political kingdom first...". Much of the Gambia's socio-economic problems originates from its political problems. The Gambia's political machinery is very inefficient because it lacks the appropriate checks and balances (and separation of powers) so much that transparency, accountability, and diligence is almost absent. I have to make reference to U.S. Secretary of State, Condi Rice's statement today that "the good thing about our system is that we know when the president is leaving office". This, understandably, is a loaded statement, but until the Gambia achieves something similar to that real progress and development may remain elusive. |
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jambo

3300 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2007 : 09:40:49
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"Gambia's socio-economic problems originates from its political problems. The Gambia's political machinery is very inefficient because it lacks the appropriate checks and balances (and separation of powers) so much that transparency, accountability, and diligence is almost absent. I have to make reference to U.S. Secretary of State, Condi Rice's statement today that "the good thing about our system is that we know when the president is leaving office". This, understandably, is a loaded statement, but until the Gambia achieves something similar to that real progress and development may remain elusive" what a powerful statement  |
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kobo

United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2007 : 19:28:36
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Indeed very powerful statements but inconsistencies, double standards, hypocrisy and mis-rule goes beyond Gambian borders.
Any man or nation free from bigotry!
Thanks Luker and Mansasula for the excellent MESSAGES on good norms and values!
"Saudi Arabia may profess to be an islamic state but in reality it is moreorless a monarchy. Clearly there is a difference between a monarchy and an islamic state. With that being the came, we do not need to follow the saudi example. What we need to follow is the Quran and the sunna of Rasullullah." And I endorsed and subcribed to that! However following the Holy scrptures, including Bible, Torah, Quran and sunna of Rasullah REMINDS us IN THE FEAR OF ALLAH IN OUR DEEDS AND GUIDE ALL OF US TO FOLLOW RIGHT PATH! ON EVERY ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES! Remember MORALITY, GOOD LAWS AND GOOD LEADERS concerns all of us and affects every aspect of our lives.The POLITICS, RELIGION, MATERIALISM, COMPETITIONS, POWER STRUGGLES AND CONFLICTS CORRUPT MANKIND and here to stay till dooms day! Furthermore; free life under liberal & free laws does not guarantee LIBERTY AND PEACE OF MIND! To put certain issues in proper perspective one can consider whether is it an INDIVIDUAL (PRIVATE OR PERSONAL) ISSUE, THE SOCIAL FABRIC THAT CONSTITUED THAT COMMUNITY OR NATION, HISTORY & DEVELOPMENT OF SOCIO-ECONOMY, AUTHORITY AND ITS GOVERNMENT (INCLUDING CONSTITUTION & LAWS) inter alia.
I also believe that ALLAH IS JEOHOVAH, HALLEHLUYAH, LORD GOD and whatever name the omnipotent is considered.
Courtesy of Mansasula ("...Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse28).
Courtesy of Wikepedia for another wonderful piece of inspiration is Amazing Grace under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Grace
God only talk to hearts and minds of those who want to hear GOOD NEWS AND AMAZING WONDERS!
God bless you ALL! |
Edited by - kobo on 23 Nov 2007 12:39:03 |
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mansasulu

997 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2007 : 16:33:58
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quote: Originally posted by kayjatta
The Gambia cannot be claimed as a Muslim country. True the majority of the people of the Gambia are Muslims, but the Gambia as a political and legal entity as reflected in its laws and public institutions has a life of its own distinct from Islamic theocracy. Although Muslims are the majority, the Gambia consists of diverse groups of people with different religious, ethnic, and cultural persuations. To claim the Gambia as a Muslim country because of its Muslim majority makes it legitimate by extension to also call it a Mandingo country because mandingos form the majority of the country. Is Iraq a ****e country, for example? But you will all agree that that claim would equally be wrong if for nothing else but the evidence that despite their majority, Mandingos do not dominate political power in the Gambia. Mansasulu's claim of 'Muslim majority' equating Muslim ownership of the Gambia is similar to the claim of the so-called 'moral majority' that seeks to establish U.S. as a christian country. You do not have to read Dr. Ali A. Mazrui to appreciate that the Gambia, like much of Africa, in deed has a triple heritage. So what you have in the Gambia is a cultural heritage of Western, Arab, and indigenous influence. Gambian culture is a hybridized culture of these various factors. My understanding is that the Gambia is established by the constitution as a LEGAL and POLITICAL entity that has distanced itself from any religious or ethnic grouping. It is a SECULAR country that guarantees everyone to belief and practice or not to belief and practice any faith of their choice. Also Mansasulu seems to suggest that the Gambia's poverty is a 'divine intervention' because we have departed our way. I disagree.The Gambia's poverty and other problems are a result of the economic and socio-political choices we have all made as Gambians.With appropriate political and economic reforms, I believe the Gambia can be set on a sound footing for progress and development.
Kay, I think you are confusing an Islamic Theocracy to a Muslim Country. These two are very different. Muslims make up the majority in the Gambia, and therefore it is a defacto muslim country. Now, that does not in anyway mean that muslims own Gambia. What it means that the cultural and spiritually mores of Gambia is heavily influenced by that of its dominant religion, which is islam.
You are right in your observation of my claim that poverty was brought about by our losing our way. You mentioned our constitution, you and I both know that Yahya Jammeh is the law in Gambia so backing your arguments on a constitution that is utterly irrelevant is as hollow as one can imagine.
We may not be a muslim country de jure but we are defacto. For 42 years we have been living in poverty and we cant seem to know why. We can talk political or economic reforms all we want. The point of the matter is the system we have does not suit our spiritual and cultural ethos. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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turk

USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2007 : 01:03:36
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Lurker
quote: Gambia has about 100,000 tourists in a good year, and they average £1000 each per trip, and lets say half would not come under those circumstances - that would be a loss of £50, 000, 000 (yes, million) pounds of
In my opinion, the issue lurker brings is kind of not benefitial to discuss. Because it is hypothetical question. Because, there is no tourism dollar. Let me rephrase it. There is not tourism dollar for gambia.
Well, the calculation above may not reflect the reality. Most important, tourism sector is seasonal which last only maximum 6 months- someone correct me if I am wrong. And most important, most of the money you talk about above may not go directly to Gambians or Gambian economy. Let us examine the money you mentioned. I am just looking at the advertising: Ocean Bay Hotel from London £399, 7 Nights. 14 Nights are £489. If it is high season these prices go to 500 – 600. So one week extra is £90 that gives me idea that the cost of accommodation is around £ 100.
£300 goes to Airline Company? Is airline company Gambian company? How much money of this benefiting Gambians and Gambian economy? Many hotels operating these holidays’ packages are European own. I have checked another holiday package, Turkey – Akyaka. Adult prices from £649.00. It is comparable. The hotel is Turkish own; the airline company is Turkish own.
So if a tourist paying £600 for airport and transportation I am not sure if they will be having another £400 spending on other things. Anyway, So where does Gambian economy get money from? These are hidden issues and unfavorable to host country. Comparing tourism in gambia to comparing tourism in italy would mislead us. Richer countries have more benefit when it comes to tourism. For poorer countries it is a robbery by the imperialist countries like, in gambia case uk and other european countries. Country like gambia do not realize much tourism benefits because most benefits go to imperialist countries like uk, belgium, dutch who operate the transportation and big hotels. There are transfers of hotels owned by european investors. For example senegambia hotels owned by belgium company. Most tourist like to have food they like, so imported products are served the tourism industry which does not benefit to host country.
According to one study: Tourists in gambia spends 25 pound per day. Most tourists going gambia either broke people, mid-income europeans, retired people. Their spending budget is very low.
Even prostitutes. They are not gambian girls. Mostly from immigrants from nigeria, ghana, sierre leone, liberia etc. Even these money does not stay in gambia. The girls come, make some money and their capital back to their country. So where is the money gambians are choosing for their religion? Does it really exist? I don't think so.
The people earnings working for hotels are just a joke.
quote: A study of tourism 'leakage' in Thailand estimated that 70% of all money spent by tourists ended up leaving Thailand (via foreign-owned tour operators, airlines, hotels, imported drinks and food, etc). Source: Thai Institute for Development and Administration, Bangkok, 1990. Estimates for other Third World countries range from 80% in the Caribbean to 40% in India.
So money goes to out of gambia even tourism is happening in gambia. Gambia needs to change the current tourism structure toward more local mid-size, bed and breakfast tourism, otherwise, there will be no benefits to locals at all.
quote: Of each US$ 100 spent on a vacation tour by a tourist from a developed country, only around US$ 5 actually stays in a developing-country destination's economy. The figure below shows how the leakage happens.
Import leakage This commonly occurs when tourists demand standards of equipment, food, and other products that the host country cannot supply. Especially in less-developed countries, food and drinks must often be imported, since local products are not up to the hotel's (i.e. tourist's) standards or the country simply doesn't have a supplying industry. Much of the income from tourism expenditures leaves the country again to pay for these imports. The average import-related leakage for most developing countries today is between 40% and 50% of gross tourism earnings for small economies and between 10% and 20% for most advanced and diversified economies, according to UNCTAD. Export leakage Multinational corporations and large foreign businesses have a substantial share in the import leakage. Often, especially in poor developing destinations, they are the only ones that possess the necessary capital to invest in the construction of tourism infrastructure and facilities. As a consequence of this, an export leakage arises when overseas investors who finance the resorts and hotels take their profits back to their country of origin.
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A 1996 UN report evaluating the contribution of tourism to national income, gross levels of incomes or gross foreign exchange, found that net earnings of tourism, after deductions were made for all necessary foreign exchange expenditures, were much more significant for the industry. This report found significant leakage associated with: (a) imports of materials and equipment for construction; (b) imports of consumer goods, particularly food and drinks; (c) repatriation of profits earned by foreign investors; (d) overseas promotional expenditures and (e) amortization of external debt incurred in the development of hotels and resorts.
Local businesses often see their chances to earn income from tourists severely reduced by the creation of "all-inclusive" vacation packages. When tourists remain for their entire stay at the same cruise ship or resort, which provides everything they need and where they will make all their expenditures, not much opportunity is left for local people to profit from tourism. The Organization of American States (OAS) carried out a survey of Jamaica's tourist industry that looked at the role of the all-inclusives compared to other types of accommodation. It found that 'All-inclusive hotels generate the largest amount of revenue but their impact on the economy is smaller per dollar of revenue than other accommodation subsectors.' Other negative impacts Infrastructure cost Tourism development can cost the local government and local taxpayers a great deal of money. Developers may want the government to improve the airport, roads and other infrastructure, and possibly to provide tax breaks and other financial advantages, which are costly activities for the government. Public resources spent on subsidized infrastructure or tax breaks may reduce government investment in other critical areas such as education and health. Increase in prices Increasing demand for basic services and goods from tourists will often cause price hikes that negatively affect local residents whose income does not increase proportionately. A San Francisco State University study of Belize found that, as a consequence of tourism development, the prices for locals increased by 8%. Tourism development and the related rise in real estate demand may dramatically increase building costs and land values. Not only does this make it more difficult for local people, especially in developing countries, to meet their basic daily needs, it can also result in a dominance by outsiders in land markets and in-migration that erodes economic opportunities for the locals, eventually disempowering residents. In Costa Rica, close to 65% of the hotels belong to foreigners. Long-term tourists living in second homes, and the so-called amenity migrants (wealthy or retired people and liberal professionals moving to attractive destinations in order to enjoy the atmosphere and peaceful rhythms of life) cause price hikes in their new homes if their numbers attain a certain critical mass. Economic dependence of the local community on tourism Diversification in an economy is a sign of health, however if a country or region becomes dependent for its economic survival upon one industry, it can put major stress upon this industry as well as the people involved to perform well. Many countries, especially developing countries with little ability to explore other resources, have embraced tourism as a way to boost the economy. In The Gambia, for instance, 30% of the workforce depends directly or indirectly on tourism. In small island developing states, percentages can range from 83% in the Maldives to 21% in the Seychelles and 34% in Jamaica, according to the WTO. Over-reliance on tourism, especially mass tourism, carries significant risks to tourism-dependent economies. Economic recession and the impacts of natural disasters such as tropical storms and cyclones as well as changing tourism patterns can have a devastating effect on the local tourism sector. Malta has only 380,000 residents, but received 1.2 million tourists in 1999. As 25% of GDP (and indirectly 40% ), tourism generated more than $650 million in foreign exchange earnings. Malta's high dependence on tourism and a limited number of export products makes its trade performance vulnerable to shifts in international demand. Source: Washington Times
Seasonal character of jobs The seasonal character of the tourism industry creates economic problems for destinations that are heavily dependent on it. Problems that seasonal workers face include job (and therefore income) insecurity, usually with no guarantee of employment from one season to the next, difficulties in getting training, employment-related medical benefits, and recognition of their experience, and unsatisfactory housing and working conditions.

So lurker’s example may not really the reality in terms of money to Gambia. So to answer lurker’s main question about inconsistencies, the issue is not about choosing islam vs. tourism. It is really misleading. It is smarter tourism and keeping the islamic values. The problem lurker’s listed are a problem in other countries too. And there are solutions. For example in Canada, people can’t sell alcohol as retail business. Only government can sell alcohol in retail. Basically you have to buy a alcohol from a government worker who has proper education. To get license of your restaurant to sell alcohol, you must be qualified. You can’t sell alcohol to minors, big penalty for that. Bars are closed by 2am.
In some countries, local people can’t go to casinos. Only foreigns can go.
Or prostitution. Government can control that too. A red light zone for both gigalos or prostitutes. I mean prostitutes don’t walk on the every street in western world. I mean there are a lots of can be done to prevent the social disease and solutions are universal.
Gambian tourism sector is not WORTH to give up the values. However, gambian must be smart to benefit most from tourism and keep the religious values. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 24 Nov 2007 07:49:47 |
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