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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 14:43:24
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Good afternoon from a dismal and dreary London where this sceptred isle is submerged in a vast , wet blanket of grey lethargy..
A recent discussion regarding the tourist attractions in the Gambia inevitably meandered into the overly-discussed subject of prostitution, alcohol and bumsterism.
However, the debate took a sidestep this time as the following point was raised.
If the Gambia is a self-professed Muslim country, which practices Islam and is (rightly) proud of this, then how can it reconcile its tolerance of the sale of alcohol to tourists?
How can it reconcile its tolerance of the open male and female prostitution in the tourist areas?(forget the knee-jerk occasional bribe-raising forays into Senegambia by the Army).
How can it reconcile its relaxation of the basic tenets of Islam within its locus?
Saudi Arabia and others ban such practices with the worst of (sharia) penalties.
Is Saudi Arabia the correct example of Islamic management within its own borders?
Is the Gambia hypocritical in that it professes the same belief system and practice yet turns a blind eye to some of the most basic transgressions of its own stated credo?
Is it acceptable to "ignore" these blasphemies when the coffers are filling with the pecuniary profits from such sinful practices?
Is the Gambia translating the Religion in a modern context , as opposed to the perceived anachrony of, say, Saudi?
Is this a case of adaptation of the rules because the financial rewards are too great to be discarded?
Is this acceptable for the sake of maintaining the tourist trade, the only real input of Forex for this small, poor country?
This is the point raised by the people in the debate we had.
What do you good people have to say?
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Edited by - lurker on 20 Nov 2007 14:44:21 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 15:38:11
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Lurker, I believe you have raised some valid and pertinent points regarding the situation of Gambia. The truth of the matter is we cannot reconcile most of what we do with what he profess to believe. As a result we will continue to be in this constant cycle of going in circles instead of going forward.
We have decided to sell our souls to the devil and expect the favor of Allah to come. We thump our nose to the laws of Allah everyday and expect that our half hearted attempts to following the true islam will bring salvation. It is no surprise to me that we have tyranny, corruption, poverty and a host of other problems reign supreme in Gambia.
We need to look at ourselves and get our priorities straight. I must admit Saudi Arabia is not perfect, but at least they know where they are headed, we dont. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 16:04:58
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so, friend, what are the priorities? I do not believe that Saudi can be held up as a role model to any human society, irrespective of its religious persuasion. Hosts of crimes over the millenia have been committed in the name of one God or another, and they (saudi)are no good example. However, your point is taken. they are more than strict within the Islamic remit.
so, what is the correct line here - how can a Muslim country ever reconcile the two opposing sides.? surely, by definiton, it cannot. These behaviours are unacceptable as per the word of the prophet and God. So Gambia is a sinner??? The Govt is a sinner? the president is a sinner?
Where is the Sensible solution?I think there cannot be one, personally, as money = goodbye all morals
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Edited by - lurker on 20 Nov 2007 16:05:41 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 16:46:51
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There is a solution. The issue is do we have the courage to apply that solution. Saudi Arabia may profess to be an islamic state but in reality it is moreorless a monarchy. Clearly there is a difference between a monarchy and an islamic state. With that being the came, we do not need to follow the saudi example. What we need to follow is the Quran and the sunna of Rasullullah. We cannot and we should not use any other criteria other than the Quran and Sunna. This is why I said courage is the most important thing in our situation.
The fact of the matter is that the socio/economic/political system in Gambia totally contradicts what we believe in not only religiousy but culturally. So no we cannot reconcile these two. I believe there is a solution to our problems and the solution is we do not need to follow Saudi Arabia, the West or anyone for that matter. What we need to follow are the laws of Allah. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 16:52:03
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money equals good morals. it is has to do with self, the things you mention are what can be seen, but what about the things you cannot see, from the time the presidents accept money for projects and does not deliver them that is theft, these crimes go unpunished, becuase they have no heart.
EVIL = EVIL, evil begats evil, it is a hard battle for the true hearted good souls of gambia. an upward struggle. |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 17:13:15
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I've not much to aid while you almost bring it all up already, but we most be careful for calling a GM a Muslim country,Are we 
Yes in GM the majority are Muslim but will also be acceptable that there are other religions /none believers too and GM has no Sharia-law (thanks Allah)and even if she have will that count with the others too? i bit no.
Yes the Muslim should not tolerates about this but on other hand we Muslim are helpless so long it is not reaching a particular areas or persons.
those doing so are they a Muslim or stick to the Islamic roles
Bro lurker, you are complete right about Saudi,(arabian /NO ALL) general most of us see them a superior but in realty they're very low if it comes within the muslim waveforms, i spend some time in Saudi and Egypt as well as in Yemen, and i had experiences some kind of stranger thing which has nothing to do with Islam, like alcohol cases Women or mishandling they work YES including a RAPE ! or calling blacks a slave- in some of they dialects there is even insufferable words toward Blacks/Asians.
So i will be careful with them as a Islams paradigms.
Wasallam. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 17:27:27
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quote:
Originally posted by lurker
However, the debate took a sidestep this time as the following point was raised.
If the Gambia is a self-professed Muslim country, which practices Islam and is (rightly) proud of this, then how can it reconcile its tolerance of the sale of alcohol to tourists?What do you good people have to say?
i think the answer to your question is simple. its simply a question of Law. S.Arabia is an islamic state/kingdom with islamic law (sharia).this is not the case in The Gambia period.
since your question starts with 'IF' let point out that we havent professed anything.
it is not illegal to sell alcohol in The Gambia. It's also a FACt that tourists are not the only people who drink alcohol in The Gambia.
perhaps you are not aware, but not every gambian is a muslim. An important aspect of Islam is to be tolerant to others and respect their believes.
We in the Gambia have come to appreciate this important principle of respect for one another which is the foundation of our society. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 18:25:48
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njucks, you are right, but not everyone in saudi is muslim either and yet they ban the things we have talked about. so , the thing was really , to find out if there is a way to accommodate both sides. the religious aspect, the tolerance and the ability to reconcile both aspects. not easy. after all, if gambia is 98% muslim, and saudi is probably similar, how come they follow the letter of the Islamic law and gambia does not? personally, i am very glad that they do not behave as the saudis, but this was leading to the aspect of money.
saudi has an unending supply - gambia has very little. therefore, what these folk asked was whether the love of this money was the reason that the letter of the law was not so closely followed. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 08:01:11
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The Gambia is not a Muslim country. It is a secular country with freedom to believe and practice or not to believe and practice any religion or faith. The majority happens to be Muslims by a mere chance of history ( actually a series of bloody jihads,but I stand to be corrected on this). It could have been otherwise.
Unless we are creating a nation of Las Vegas, prostitution should be outlawed in the Gambia (and I think it already is), but prostitution (sex peddling) is hard to prosecute because evidence is hard to come by.
The acceptance of bumsterism and all its conotations by the mainstream Gambian society is perhaps due to widespread poverty and lack of real opportunities in the Gambia. The only way forward for many youngsters (and their families) is to get out of the country, and this usually means getting a 'White' friend.
Saudi Arabia cannot be the correct example for the Gambia. Saudi Arabia is an interesting country though because it is one of the few countries that continues to live in the 21st. century with 5th. century laws. That is , for good or bad, the Saudi paradox. The Gambia cannot and should not be modeled on such stagnated dualism.
Contrary to Mansasulu's contentions, I do not think Saudi Arabia really knows where it is going. Saudi Arabia, in my view, is at best drifting on a sea of oil.
However, I think the financial rewards of prostitution, alcohol consumption, and bumsterism in the Gambia are often exaggerated. They are admittedly important sources of income and material progress for some, may be many,(with many social problems they cause) but their over-powering financial benefits may not be too significant. Any real statistics from anyone ? |
Edited by - kayjatta on 21 Nov 2007 08:03:42 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 08:21:56
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On the subject of alcohol
Just because you serve it to someone else doesnt necessarily mean you will be corrupted by it yourself.
In fact many staff at the hotels that see the bad side of alcohol become MORE conviced of their easons for abstaining.
Many people in UK decide not to drink. It is a personal decision and has little to do with the availablity of drink.
Prohibition doesnt work because humans are contrary beings....it makes it more attractive.
Prostitution is another case in point. Although we may not like it, it is part of the human condition across time and place. Fuelled by the needs of SOME men and the poverty of ambition of SOME women.
If you ban it, it goes underground and becomes more dangerous for the women.
Can I ask:
Are there prostitutes in Gambian villages? Or is it just at the coast? If it is just at the coast a 'district' could be created and regulated. That would keep everyone safer and healthier. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 08:26:18
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can't do stats, kay, but imagine if there was no alcohol, no bumsters, no sexual tourism, no locals offering even friendship, without being a direct ssex service intitially.
now ask yourself - how many toubabs would still come?
i am thinking that if Gambia has about 100,000 tourists in a good year, and they average £1000 each per trip, and lets say half would not come under those circumstances - that would be a loss of £50, 000, 000 (yes, million) pounds of forex gone, with associated bribery, corruption, backhanders and genuine financial benefit. not all goes to gambia of course, some would be for the tour companies, but even 2/3 of that would be spent in the gambia itself. i think more than half the toubabs would not come if those "attractions" were not there, particularly the booze.
so, kay, LOADS OF MONEY is involved.
now tell the tourist ministry to ban the very features which bring in the toubab money and see what they say!
have a good day |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 09:15:22
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lurker you raise some good points, let me look at this posting from a christian point of view. I enjoy the country because of its tolerance towards other religions BUT
Gambia is a muslim country, because it is majority rule,, some visitors do not know that there are christains in Gambia they believe it is muslim country that is tolerant towards tourists, read the brochures, always portrayed as dress modestly because it is a muslim country and deeply religious countires such as egypt, morocco and tunisia, all have the same view when it comes to tourism. They are the cash cows.
for me I would like to see the bumster situation addressed, morocco, tunisia and egypt do not allow the "cash cow"/tourist to be hassled in the street, because it is not acceptable behaviour and gives out the wrong message for the youth and for the country. But people do still meet in the age old fashioned way, waiters, taxi drivers, markets etc, they do not ban mingling with the local, just the way it is approached.
Secondly prostitution i bet a million pounds these countries have it,but do you see it no way. Any visitor can go there and "get this if they want to" sit in any bar and some local will ask you "Questions".
Gambia as an African muslim country should look at these issues and take charge, before something terrible happens or the wrong type of tourist visits there and the image of Gambia smiling happy becomes an image of Gambia smiling like a hungary wolf.
like Mbay i have visited other muslim countries, and he is correct in his observations, make Gambi like saudi with its attitude towards women, Gambia will be the looser.
not every evil in gambia can be blamed on the tourists.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 09:30:01
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Lurker:
The majority of tourists do not visit for alcohol,and sex. The vast majority of tourists travel for the beauty of geography and aesthetic experience. Alcohol, sex, etc are generally incidentals,I don't think they constitute the bulk of the revenue from tourism.
It appears that many 'Toubabs" PRIMARILY come to the Gambia for the sun, the sandy beaches, the friendly people, the exotic wild life, and to relax from the stress of European and American life. Along the way alcohol and sex may be enjoyed and are indeed enjoyed, but I do not think they are the primary focus of most tourists, and sure the money helps the tourist industry a big chunk...
Bev:
As of now prostitution in the traditional sense is very limited or non-existent in rural Gambia. It is mainly confined to the coastal towns and cities. But actually it is a small Gambia... |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 09:45:43
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i think banning it or not doesnt mean it wouldnt exist. many of the things that you say are banned in S.Arabia do infact happen perhaps undergound.
if you live in the UK or the West you will know that people from the middle east are rich enough to flyout and 'free' themselves from their own laws. Go to Leicester Sq. in London and see 4 urself. they come to the west to gamble,drink, wear 'western clothes' etc |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 09:49:07
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kay, i see what you are saying but i disagree to some degree. i have been to gambia on and off for 17 years now. toubabs do not come for wildlife as there is none relative to eastern and southern african countries. they do not come for the geography as gambia is basically flat, with no visitable forestry areas of enough note, no mountains, no volcanos, no approachable riverine ecology that is well advertised or easily accessible - and i know makasutu and others are trying to change this.
they do come for sun, sea and sand, as you say.
they like the people, and the reduction of stress - so a good mix for a holiday, as you say.
they are not there becuase alcohol and sex are available, but a load would not come if they were not available, despite the sun and sea and so on.
toubabs drink. end of story. yes, some drink in moderation or abstain, but most european toubabs would absolutely never go on holiday to a dry zone. that is a simple fact.
thereofre, if you remove the alcohol, the seedy nightclubs and bars, a whole lot of toubabs would go off to spain, the caribbean, europe and anywhere else, frankly. drink is an intrinsic part of their "letting go" and gambia would lose a fortune if they went dry.they are not a primary focus, but they are an essential ingredient and enough to deter people from coming by their absence. |
Edited by - lurker on 21 Nov 2007 10:12:23 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 10:26:26
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In that respect, Lurker, I agree with you. I still, however, maintain that the central thrust of Gambian tourism is the country's geography (land, sea, people, animals, plants,...)and political stabilty.
I agree there are support services such as alcohol, beach boys, 'seedy night clubs'and all that which continues to make the Gambia an attraction to many visitors. |
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