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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 19:53:26
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There is a lot being talked about reparations. Suppose America and Britain want to compensate for slavery. How will this be managed. Who gets what share. How would you pay those in the diaspora. Do we have statistics as to the regions in africa most affected.
If we are talking about reparations then we should have a mechanism in place to compensate the victims. i need your ideas.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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medotech
42 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 20:47:42
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| Come on be realistic here,do you think the west is prepared to pay us reparations?I dont think so,besides,they wont be able to pay us anyway because what they did is priceless.The thing I will suggest in place of reparation is fair and open market practices that will help poor black countries elevate their statues in the international trade scene.Clear all the debts,discourage dictators while improving the democratisation process in Africa and a lot of other things.The least they could do is level the playing field.But to be honest,I dont think they will give reparations. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 21:03:41
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THE REASON I POSTED THIS IS THAT THERE IS A GROWING MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES WHO ARE CHARGED WITH THIS RESPOSIBILITY ALTHOUGH I MUST SAY WITH NO TEETH TO BITE.
MY BELIEVE IS REAPARATION IS DIRECTLY DEPENDENT ON HOW AFRICA PERFORMS BOTH POLITICALLY AND ECONOMICALLY. THIS IS BECAUSE THE DIASPORA AS THEY STAND ARE NOT IN SOME UNIFIED AND IDENTIFIABLE ORGANISATION TO PURUSE THIS. YOU HAVE THOSE IN THE CARRIBEAN AND THOSE IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSE WHERE.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED IN IT AND DO NOT THINK PEOPLE SHOULD WASTE RESOURCES ON THIS BUT THE IDEA IS BEING PUSHED AND I BELIEVE EVEN IF IT BECOMES REALITY, IT WILL CREATE MORE DIVISIONS AND HARM THAN WHAT IT IS INTENDED FOR. BESIDES THIS IS A COMPLEX ISSUE THAT WILL NOT ONLY PUT THE WEST IN THE DOCK BUT AFRICA TOO. WE MUST BE PREPARED TO FACE OUR PAST ACTIONS. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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Lux
Gambia
2 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 10:14:33
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Hello guys. Always a pleasure to be here. Medotech well am with, on what the west did is priceless. But still we the Africans have the right to cleam for some conpesation. Your suggestion of open market practices is a good one but i don´t think thats enoght.
With love . Lux. |
Lux |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 11:38:16
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my view is that they dont have a case not bacause it wasnt a tradegy but because the arguments are simply not true. first who compensates who? because africans are poor so african governments are not being asked to pay reparations but rather hoping to benefit from it! Old Europe did not bring slavery to africa, it is misleading to think so. if the argument is a moral one why not from the middle east too, there is more cash there. within africa most states, kingdoms propered from slavery. from Mali, Kaabu, Niumi etc
Slavery brought wealth to all, from cotton farmers in the USA to african chiefs. in our attempt to revisit history we cannot judge the pass with our morals of today.
the slave trade was just that. a trade in human beings already existing in africa before the portugese came. aficans sold and european bought. ofcourse all parties took part in raids too.
the USA itself went to war over slavery at great cost, and is today made up of people who had nothing to do with it.
my advise is that those who are decended from slavery should get a good laywer and sue the plantation families/companies/banks that profitted from the USA slave trade , some still exist as multinationals today |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 22:30:08
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Wel my friend,
This is very unlikely and even if it is going to happen, not in our life time I think. |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 00:34:23
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Kondorong,
The West can compensate Africans easily. Recently, i was watching a program here about slavery. economists have summed up the total amount of money owed to African slaves brought here in England to 4 trillion pounds. this might sound rediculous but its true. this is how it was worked out: 'during the days of slavery, each slave was paid £200 in his entire life time. using that as the bedrock formula, they come up with the £4 trillions. during that reasearch, it was revealed that all the major banks in England including the Bank of England itself were involved in the slave trade. to name some of the banks: The Bank of Scotland, Honkong Sanghai Banking Coperation(HSBC), then it was midlands bank, and Barclays bank etc. The original owners of these banks were all selling slaves and they are well documented and are still in possession of these banks.
Recently in America, some of the major institutions that were involved in slave trade were giving scholarships to African Americans. I am yet to confirm this though.
I think that way, UK can also give such facilities to all her citizens of African origin. As for Africa, the compensation should be given to the OAU. The Caribbeans too have their own body just like the OAU, they should enjoy a similar compensation. Eventhough the Caribbean is not inhabitted by only former African slaves, we don't have to forget that not only Africans were the victims of such menace.
unfortunately, the the probability of the UK compensating Africans at home and in the Diaspora is almost zero. it is only likely to happen on a "cold day in hell". We have seen it done for the evil Zionist state of Israel. Even though i QUESTION THE HOLLOCAUST myself but it has been done for that society devoid of morales. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 08:07:37
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| You question the hollocaust? HOW OFFENSIVE! Why do you think Israeli people are devoid of morals? |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 13:04:15
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I don't want to be involved in the Israel issuebut I must.
Every Human being is valuable whether Israel or African ect.But I seem to belief that the moment one talks about Israel,the big brothers wil sound offended.Though I don't doubt the hollocaust.It was a terrible thing to happen to any sect of people,but the west's continues aiding of Israel's agression against the Palistinians will not help world peace.
We have all seen how Israel went shelling the prison in Jericho killing innocent people and NO WESTERN NATION SEEMS TO CONDEMN IT.
WHAT TYPE OF WORLD DO WE LIVE IN?
Is Israel omnipotent?
I belief if my history is right, these people (the Arabs and the jews) people from the same father-Abraham.If so, then why favour one tribe against the other.I see that as hypocricy.
If Britain and America want to pull out of the prison, they should let the whole world know they are pulling out so that bloodshed could be avarted.
If Israel want some body with Israel blood on his hands,what about handing over any Israel with Palistinian blood on his/he hands in exchange?
Humanity should all join to condemn the Israel brutality against the Palistinians.
How can they stop Palestinians from sucide attacks when they are killing their childreen with rockets and morters?
How can we have peace when in the middle East when no one condemns the big power against the weak? |
Edited by - Janyanfara on 15 Mar 2006 13:07:11 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 18:33:38
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When you say 'the wests' helping of israel...really it is USA suport of israel. I dont agree with that at all. What a STATE does, is different to its individuals. Israel and Palestinians are all humans. I am anti war and anti violence of any kind. If my uk government is involved in wars such as iraq....it is NOT in MY name.
We need to separate the individual from the state. Not all people living in a country condone what its government does.
Personally I would never be happy to live in the USA because it still has the death penalty....... on balance I still find the UK an ok place to live.....but I dont agree 100% with government actions. |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 01:52:34
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bev,
it is britain that imposed the state of israel where it is in 1945. israel is a rogue state established to protect british and american intrests in the middle east.
why do i question the hollocaust? if the hollocaust is a reality, the israelis will not setup concentration camps in palestine similar to the ones in which hitler allegedly massacred millions of them. if a hollocaust was a reality, israelis wouldn't have gone on with another hollocaust, this time in palestine.
isrealis have no morales because they have no regards for defensless palestinians' lives. yesterday we have seen a british-american conspiracy in Jericho.
the thing is, i have lots of respect for britain, but britain has messed up things so much in this world as America. the difference with britain is that they do their acts and sit back calm. didn't britain support the aparthied regime in South Africa?
to be honest, if the hollocaust was a reality, its unfortunate but i remain unconvinced that it happend as long as israelis are setting up concentration camps in palestine.
nb. politicians always act based on public opinions. we have seen a massive support for iraq war both in Europe and America before we all found out that it was based on eutopian reality.
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Edited by - BornAfrican on 16 Mar 2006 01:55:00 |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 02:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by kondorong
THE REASON I POSTED THIS IS THAT THERE IS A GROWING MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES WHO ARE CHARGED WITH THIS RESPOSIBILITY ALTHOUGH I MUST SAY WITH NO TEETH TO BITE.
MY BELIEVE IS REAPARATION IS DIRECTLY DEPENDENT ON HOW AFRICA PERFORMS BOTH POLITICALLY AND ECONOMICALLY. THIS IS BECAUSE THE DIASPORA AS THEY STAND ARE NOT IN SOME UNIFIED AND IDENTIFIABLE ORGANISATION TO PURUSE THIS. YOU HAVE THOSE IN THE CARRIBEAN AND THOSE IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSE WHERE.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED IN IT AND DO NOT THINK PEOPLE SHOULD WASTE RESOURCES ON THIS BUT THE IDEA IS BEING PUSHED AND I BELIEVE EVEN IF IT BECOMES REALITY, IT WILL CREATE MORE DIVISIONS AND HARM THAN WHAT IT IS INTENDED FOR. BESIDES THIS IS A COMPLEX ISSUE THAT WILL NOT ONLY PUT THE WEST IN THE DOCK BUT AFRICA TOO. WE MUST BE PREPARED TO FACE OUR PAST ACTIONS.
Kondorong,
it might be true that Africa will be put in the dock as well, but that gives me the impression that you are judging Africa for her part in the slave trade. we don't have to forget that the first part of slavery was "SLAVE RAID", then it later became "SLAVE TRADE". the first part was nastier and bloodier. it did not involve Africans. this was when Europeans used force to capture Africans. it did not go their way so they decided to involve the African chiefs exchanging goods for slaves. unfortunately, the slave raid has been eradicated in the european versions of the slavery. the european version of slavery has created nasty consequences, creating fissures among African Africans and Africans in the Diaspora. For instance, many Caribbeans hate Africans based on the contorted history they read.many of us were forbidden to know the first part of slavery.
even if economic compensation is impossible, i think the world has to do justice to Africa by teaching slavery at all academic institutions from primary to the highest level. unfortunately, even our acadmic institutions back in Africa don't teach us about slavery. i can remember when i was in secondary school, i read the history of the Arabs, Europeans and the Ottoman empire. WHAT A DISASTER!!! |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 08:21:42
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Born Africa I agree that the way israel has treated palestinians isnt good at all and it is very hard to understand why a people tht have been persecuted would want to go on and do that to another race.
Sadly humans have very short memories and dont seem to learn from history.Just because the Israeli government does bad things doesnt mean the hollocaust didnt happen!!!
Politicians DONT always act based on public opinion. if they did Tony Blair would have had British troops out of Iraq long ago. He is more concerned with his relationship with G Bush...he is his poodle.
I would be very careful what you put into print about hollocaust denial...not only does it make you look very ignorant....but also you risk being prosecuted and imprisoned. |
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makang
4 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 10:08:00
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Well guys,bornafrican,you prsented some compelling arguments in favor of compensation,i believe that the west have a moral responsibility to pay.However payment must be made to surviving victims i.e in america and other places because they are the ones that suffered.Our suffering is secondary to thiers.That is not to say that we didnt after all your brothers suffering is your own!
We have to remember that slavery was going on in some form in our life time,in form of discrimination.We do have a right to compensation but i believe that would be for colonialism and the stealing that went on during that time.I wonder if any one in the AU is talking about that?
We have ample prove to make a case for that because it went on for a long time even after the so called political independence.I believe we have a good case and doing it now or soon would stand us a very good chance because people involve in it are still alive.
On the question of who benefited by slavery,there is no quetion and we must also accept some responsiblity for what has happened some corrupt kings and chiefs who sold people to the europeans to increase their own profiles,however we must remeber also the conditions of slavery as they exsisted in africa at that time,that a slave is still treated with some common human decency,and that a slave can buy his way to freedom makes me wonder if they are truely aware of the horror into which they were selling this people into?i do need some input into this.If they had known would they have done it?
If we as decents of those people are free of responsiblity for their actions can we hold the decedants of slave owners to account? |
Edited by - makang on 16 Mar 2006 10:09:03 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 18:41:38
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I am not an expert on the slave trade but i believe that as part of a process of seeking the truth, we should be prepared to take responsibility for the role we played. What that role is , is often a subject of debate. Others have said that Africans have been forced into selling their own brethen whilst other intimate that we particpited in it for financial gains.
I know for sure that slave families still exist in the Gambia. People of "free born" do not marry those of the "slave family" and you can see this role at traditional functions like serving people, being the messengers and in some more severe situations make little decisions about their family. Although not an enforced issue, sometimes they "seek" permission to do certain basic things that household heads take for graned as a right. Whether this is a consequence of or recipe for the slave trade is difficult to ascertain.
Slavery is a taboo in our society and our educational system tells us very little about it. Infact most people were surprised especilally when roots showed up in the Gambia. That was my personal contact with the story of slavery.
I am open to new empirical evidence and we have to be able to deal with it because it cannot be swept under the carpet.
I am in for the truth irespective of what role we played so that we can move forward. In fact the Arab world should also be put in the spotlight as they were deeply involded as indicated in the diaries of Ibin Battuta.
Infact today there is institutional slavery in Mauritannia and many articles on the internet will attest to this.
Please see BBC report on the issue below.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4091579.stm
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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