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Nyarikangbanna
United Kingdom
1382 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2007 : 19:45:34
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[quote]Originally posted by turk
Most important question;
Can UK (31,400 per capita) maintain democracy and secularism, order of law if UK was one of 50 poorest countrIES in the world? Or how would UK deal with STD or drug use, if UK was poorest country in the world?
I once posited in a tutorial debate that UK is secular but I was debunked by the tutor who clearly stated that UK is not a secular state but officially a Christian state. I found truth in this from a historical context and given that the Queen in her capacity as head of state [not in her personal capacity] is the official head of the Church of England. So I think we are better of describing UK as a multicultural society rather than a secular state. Having said that, I think the whole idea of 'Islamic Republic of Gambia' is inconceivable for the simple reason that despite our majority status, Muslims alone don't own Gambia. Ever since Gambia was found in 1888 until independence in 1965, it has always being a country of mild religious diversity.
Ownership in itself is a right. So if Gambian Muslims can claim ownership over Gambia, Christians too can do it and we have no right to stop them from claiming entitlement, as long as they are not talking about a Christian entitlement, since they too are Gambians. So this is a co-ownership. The minority cannot be deprived of that right and certainly there is no right of Muslim entitlement to Gambia.
The Constitution has provided a right to religious Freedom and this has being universally observed and respect. Therefore those who want to be good Muslims have every right and opportunity to be so. That being the case, there is no need to establish an Islamic state.
Unless we want to do away with our culture of religious tolerance and turn to injustice, social persecution, barbarism and aggression, I think this debate is perverse.
Just my thoughts.
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I do not oppose unity but I oppose dumb union. |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
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Karamba
United Kingdom
3820 Posts |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 00:49:08
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First of all, I am not supporting an Islamic State. But at the same time, islam being most important part of Gambian society, the colour of islam can not be isolated from the government. Politics is not a positive science like 2+2=4. As you are teacher you probably agree with me, depends on the child culture, behaviour, even gender, you might have different approach when it comes to teaching. For example, I read somewhere, boys are not very successful in math because they can’t focus. You probably have different strategy dealing with different students who have different realities.
What I am saying your idea of secularism may be very valid one for westerners, and I would support it if I was British as well. But at the same time, it is because your ideology is secularism, you can’t apply the ideology to different society. Western society was established based on Roman, Judeo-Christian, then Martin Luther, than industrial revolution and come to this point. Gambia and other middleeastern countries do not have that process. I do believe in secularism but at the same time I do not want to reject the islam that can have positive role in building Gambia.
My motivation with my questions to you to point that British and Gambian have different realities and one may not understand the dynamics of Gambian society when proposing a ideology to them.
quote:
For Gambia to progress it needs to create more paid work for its people and then they would contribute through taxes to improve the schools and medical care.
I am not sure how this relate to Islam. Islam itself is capitalist that support inheritance, private business, so in terms of economic, I did not understand how being Islamic state would undermine the development of the gambia?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 00:49:08
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First of all, I am not supporting an Islamic State. But at the same time, islam being most important part of Gambian society, the colour of islam can not be isolated from the government. Politics is not a positive science like 2+2=4. As you are teacher you probably agree with me, depends on the child culture, behaviour, even gender, you might have different approach when it comes to teaching. For example, I read somewhere, boys are not very successful in math because they can’t focus. You probably have different strategy dealing with different students who have different realities.
What I am saying your idea of secularism may be very valid one for westerners, and I would support it if I was British as well. But at the same time, it is because your ideology is secularism, you can’t apply the ideology to different society. Western society was established based on Roman, Judeo-Christian, then Martin Luther, than industrial revolution and come to this point. Gambia and other middleeastern countries do not have that process. I do believe in secularism but at the same time I do not want to reject the islam that can have positive role in building Gambia.
My motivation with my questions to you to point that British and Gambian have different realities and one may not understand the dynamics of Gambian society when proposing a ideology to them.
quote:
For Gambia to progress it needs to create more paid work for its people and then they would contribute through taxes to improve the schools and medical care.
I am not sure how this relate to Islam. Islam itself is capitalist that support inheritance, private business, so in terms of economic, I did not understand how being Islamic state would undermine the development of the gambia?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 00:58:08
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Karamba
I am confused with your point but let me comment. People, politicians who use islam, or any politicians who use religion not new. Do you remembers Bush comments 'being chosen', 'crusade against terrorism'. So, your president being as you described using religion for political gain is not a big news. But you can't blame Islam for his mistakes. If i go with your logic, secularism, would be as bad as Islam if Stalin (a strict secular) would be used with your logic.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 00:58:08
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Karamba
I am confused with your point but let me comment. People, politicians who use islam, or any politicians who use religion not new. Do you remembers Bush comments 'being chosen', 'crusade against terrorism'. So, your president being as you described using religion for political gain is not a big news. But you can't blame Islam for his mistakes. If i go with your logic, secularism, would be as bad as Islam if Stalin (a strict secular) would be used with your logic.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 01:13:08
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Nyarikangbanna
I think UK is as christian state as UK being govern my monarch (queen).
Anyway, in shourt summary, in some of westerners eye, islam is devil. I support the secularism but at the same time I do not want to deny how islam can help Gambia. The problem is secularism is understood differently. For example, in Turkey, in the name of secularism they ban muslims girls going to university. Which is stupid to me. Or secularist Turkey cheat the presidental election it is because the candidate is a 'good muslim'. Or military statement about secularism. They may accomplish of their radical secularism agenda, but at the same time you lose your democratic values like freedom of religious expression and bigotry against the excellent candidate who happens to be 'good muslim'.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 01:13:08
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Nyarikangbanna
I think UK is as christian state as UK being govern my monarch (queen).
Anyway, in shourt summary, in some of westerners eye, islam is devil. I support the secularism but at the same time I do not want to deny how islam can help Gambia. The problem is secularism is understood differently. For example, in Turkey, in the name of secularism they ban muslims girls going to university. Which is stupid to me. Or secularist Turkey cheat the presidental election it is because the candidate is a 'good muslim'. Or military statement about secularism. They may accomplish of their radical secularism agenda, but at the same time you lose your democratic values like freedom of religious expression and bigotry against the excellent candidate who happens to be 'good muslim'.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 02:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Karamba
Will anyone think Gambia is more Islamic than Turkey? Read this.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9E015120-D8FF-4CEC-A6FA-A444B8309080.htm
karamba
the issue at hand is fundamentally critical. as you supported all the time , first gambains need to repair there islam then think about an islamic state. as for turkey ,people need a little historical lesson. turkey is deep rooted with masonic influences and this influences came into being with cult personality of atarturk the father of modern turkey. but to a muslim , one need to ask all the time ,what is more important in your short life ? every good and sincere muslim need to remind him/herself ,what will my legacy be with my creator ? this is modern to us. but in looking at the west for guidiance on true democracy we may got some answers but also some distortions. the west where democratic when they were practicing slave trade . the most famous democrat in the person of abraham lincoln use to own a slave .so democracy is not a consistence way of governance as we see it. laws change in yearly basis. if the government wants your head on the plate ,they make laws to get it.
as for the gambia ,our hope is to first educate the people about the proper akida or believes in islam ,then when they understand that we can think of adopting the islamic principles. but in real life every muslim need to pracrice islam as your way each minute. our givenments have a role to play but they most do this in an unbais way. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 02:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Karamba
Will anyone think Gambia is more Islamic than Turkey? Read this.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9E015120-D8FF-4CEC-A6FA-A444B8309080.htm
karamba
the issue at hand is fundamentally critical. as you supported all the time , first gambains need to repair there islam then think about an islamic state. as for turkey ,people need a little historical lesson. turkey is deep rooted with masonic influences and this influences came into being with cult personality of atarturk the father of modern turkey. but to a muslim , one need to ask all the time ,what is more important in your short life ? every good and sincere muslim need to remind him/herself ,what will my legacy be with my creator ? this is modern to us. but in looking at the west for guidiance on true democracy we may got some answers but also some distortions. the west where democratic when they were practicing slave trade . the most famous democrat in the person of abraham lincoln use to own a slave .so democracy is not a consistence way of governance as we see it. laws change in yearly basis. if the government wants your head on the plate ,they make laws to get it.
as for the gambia ,our hope is to first educate the people about the proper akida or believes in islam ,then when they understand that we can think of adopting the islamic principles. but in real life every muslim need to pracrice islam as your way each minute. our givenments have a role to play but they most do this in an unbais way. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 06:59:20
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santafara
quote:
turkey is deep rooted with masonic influences and this influences came into being with cult personality of atarturk the father of modern turkey.
Is this historical fact or speculation? Can you send me reference to this so called historical lesson? I would agree with radical secularism in Turkey, but government has no influence what muslims in Turkey follow in terms of Islam.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 06:59:20
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santafara
quote:
turkey is deep rooted with masonic influences and this influences came into being with cult personality of atarturk the father of modern turkey.
Is this historical fact or speculation? Can you send me reference to this so called historical lesson? I would agree with radical secularism in Turkey, but government has no influence what muslims in Turkey follow in terms of Islam.
|
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 08:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
santafara
quote:
turkey is deep rooted with masonic influences and this influences came into being with cult personality of atarturk the father of modern turkey.
Is this historical fact or speculation? Can you send me reference to this so called historical lesson? I would agree with radical secularism in Turkey, but government has no influence what muslims in Turkey follow in terms of Islam.
turk ,i am not getting all argruementative with you over this matter. this is well documented. may be you need reading the history of the first world war and the reason for the fall of the ottoman empire then you will get what i am saying.
i asked you why did islam all of a suden takes the back seat in turkey ? why did the turkies people don't pride there islamic identity ? i can go on and on brother. i am not saying the government go arround telling people what to do or what not to do but government decisions and policies all over the world affects her citizens thinking partern. the culture of militarism and police state is more of a masonic norm than any other phylosophy.
you may be turkies but that doesn't necessaryly make you stop the course of history. this facts are well written by both muslim writters and non-muslim writters alike. turkey as been seeking acceptance in main land european union for ages and what is it that the union wants them to do ? i will retrieve this topic in future and provide you with the facts insahallah. i don't have much time at present.
who is atarturk and how did he manage to overturn the first world war in turkies favour ? why is it that women are ban from wearing the hijab in universities and offices ? if the government laws don't affect peoples religious practice ,why should muslims in europe get worried about the current trend of laws affecting muslims ? i am not castigating turkey and her people .i am just writting a little fact brother.why should people be bothered about which government to elect if government are just some thing one can avoid. this is not as simple as you may think.
governments either overtly or covertly influence the mind set of the people.this is done in many ways. from movies to life style. government and big businesses work hand in hand. the people most be willing to accept change before a busniess undertake certain innovative practices. what does government gain by her citizen accepting change ..? tax income. why should britain.amrica or even france be bothered who is leading the iragy people or the afqanis ? this is what am talking about. in this life some people can bargain what they persive to be supperior culture for what is in there hand. this cannot be done with an unwilling partner. this is not about turkey but tunisia,egypt ,syria,omman,dubia ,the gambia etc.our leaders have historically been for the masonic cause rather than for the citizens. if you are a university graduate ,the alluni is just a simple platform. read '' how europe underdeveloped africa by WALTER RODNEY .
also how islam was crushed in spain by king fadinand and the declaration of pop- oban the second. we either close our eyes or read history and take bitter lessons from it. in either case we will always be doing catch-up .my sincere salam to you. finally you may go through the pages of charles darwin theory of evolution and see how this is influencing modern politics. and the legacy of apathied south africa and why nelson mandela did not take the revenge rout .some think it is just plain all peace loving mandela. or no. some thing bigger. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2007 : 08:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
santafara
quote:
turkey is deep rooted with masonic influences and this influences came into being with cult personality of atarturk the father of modern turkey.
Is this historical fact or speculation? Can you send me reference to this so called historical lesson? I would agree with radical secularism in Turkey, but government has no influence what muslims in Turkey follow in terms of Islam.
turk ,i am not getting all argruementative with you over this matter. this is well documented. may be you need reading the history of the first world war and the reason for the fall of the ottoman empire then you will get what i am saying.
i asked you why did islam all of a suden takes the back seat in turkey ? why did the turkies people don't pride there islamic identity ? i can go on and on brother. i am not saying the government go arround telling people what to do or what not to do but government decisions and policies all over the world affects her citizens thinking partern. the culture of militarism and police state is more of a masonic norm than any other phylosophy.
you may be turkies but that doesn't necessaryly make you stop the course of history. this facts are well written by both muslim writters and non-muslim writters alike. turkey as been seeking acceptance in main land european union for ages and what is it that the union wants them to do ? i will retrieve this topic in future and provide you with the facts insahallah. i don't have much time at present.
who is atarturk and how did he manage to overturn the first world war in turkies favour ? why is it that women are ban from wearing the hijab in universities and offices ? if the government laws don't affect peoples religious practice ,why should muslims in europe get worried about the current trend of laws affecting muslims ? i am not castigating turkey and her people .i am just writting a little fact brother.why should people be bothered about which government to elect if government are just some thing one can avoid. this is not as simple as you may think.
governments either overtly or covertly influence the mind set of the people.this is done in many ways. from movies to life style. government and big businesses work hand in hand. the people most be willing to accept change before a busniess undertake certain innovative practices. what does government gain by her citizen accepting change ..? tax income. why should britain.amrica or even france be bothered who is leading the iragy people or the afqanis ? this is what am talking about. in this life some people can bargain what they persive to be supperior culture for what is in there hand. this cannot be done with an unwilling partner. this is not about turkey but tunisia,egypt ,syria,omman,dubia ,the gambia etc.our leaders have historically been for the masonic cause rather than for the citizens. if you are a university graduate ,the alluni is just a simple platform. read '' how europe underdeveloped africa by WALTER RODNEY .
also how islam was crushed in spain by king fadinand and the declaration of pop- oban the second. we either close our eyes or read history and take bitter lessons from it. in either case we will always be doing catch-up .my sincere salam to you. finally you may go through the pages of charles darwin theory of evolution and see how this is influencing modern politics. and the legacy of apathied south africa and why nelson mandela did not take the revenge rout .some think it is just plain all peace loving mandela. or no. some thing bigger. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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