Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Does this mean that only those not capable of not getting themselves as leaders should be selected? This wisdom in that as humble but competent people would shy away from the role. Does it mean then that incompetent people usually take to politics?
Please explain more. I noticed this is a quote but you must have believed in it to use it.
Like Adams, you pose a very interesting conundrum and, I suppose there are many ways of responding to it! I think, perhaps, that it is not to do with incompetent people - because they have to be capable to begin with. Perhaps it's to do with the way you have to behave/games you have to play/tricks you have to perform/people you have to 'con' - and so on - in order to become elected that then negates your "worthiness" for the job?
And I'm sorry for joining in - I can see that you meant this for someone else - but it's just too tempting, so i hope you'll forgive me.
Like Adams, you pose a very interesting conundrum and, I suppose there are many ways of responding to it! I think, perhaps, that it is not to do with incompetent people - because they have to be capable to begin with. Perhaps it's to do with the way you have to behave/games you have to play/tricks you have to perform/people you have to 'con' - and so on - in order to become elected that then negates your "worthiness" for the job?
And I'm sorry for joining in - I can see that you meant this for someone else - but it's just too tempting, so i hope you'll forgive me.
I have learnt something from your perspectives. That is very true also that to become one, you have to "push" some people out and in some cases by any means necessary to achieve the role. Morally, you then become unuitable to lead.
Going by your above explanation, it therefore suggests that we should not have a structured society because ultimately to become a president you have to do just that, manage all the bends, push others and grab to succeed.
However, group without a leader is also equally dangerous. Ultimately and unfortunately, its the only process that a system called democracy works by electing leaders who used those tactics you mention above.
May be i am becoming too philosophical than Adams.
Kondorong, you are right. We have to have a structured society for the majority of us to function but in such a structured society the leading politicians (well, not all of them, of course) have - as you wonderfully say -to manage all the bends. I don't think politicians set out to do that - many, I think, really believe in doing the 'right thing' (look at Blair, for example) when they begin in politics/government. They are democratically elected and then along comes the pressures and the 'lies' begin (look at Blair - and Bush - now for example). Can you have an honest politician? Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (I'd settle for that) or do the needs of the few (rich, powerful corporations and individuals, perhaps) outweight the needs of the many??! That, surely, is morally untenable?
Are we choosing a leader by our self or is it from the Creator Cose this is what i use to heard in a Hadith & stories that leaders don’t come over night but choosing by God from the beginning.
quote:Originally posted by kondorong
Your quote is very thought provoking
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Does this mean that only those not capable of not getting themselves as leaders should be selected? This wisdom in that as humble but competent people would shy away from the role. Does it mean then that incompetent people usually take to politics?
Please explain more. I noticed this is a quote but you must have believed in it to use it.
Does this mean that only those not capable of not getting themselves as leaders should be selected? This wisdom in that as humble but competent people would shy away from the role. Does it mean then that incompetent people usually take to politics?
It isn't about competence, and I'm not claiming the inverse (what you stated). To be elected to any high office one needs to lie and bribe and play politics. Someone willing to do those things has traits I would never want in a leader. And I think anyone I would vote for would never win a major public office.
So many people focus on electing one party or another but to me that's a frivolous battle. Whoever does get elected will be a poor choice. I think to improve the quality of leadership requires institutional changes. I don't know what'll work but probably the first step would be to try transparency in government. Don't allow secret meetings or closed books. If every transaction and deal is accounted for publicly then people may end up electing honest politicians since the liars would be seen as such.
Mbay, an interesting question. In Europe we had a long tradition of kings and emperors claiming to be chosen by God. But this lead to no good. 'To be chosen by God' was mostly interpreted by those kings that no one was allowed to criticise them, and that they could act despotic.
Ich dachte sprechen wir hier über eine richtige führe, sorry. Eine führe(also die richtige) darf u. sollte auch nicht im diesem Wege gehen. Aber leider Gottes gibt so was in der Welt sehr selten.
I may have missed the right point on this topic. But when we are talking about leaders they should then be a righteous one. Which is like a one in millions.
Sere. Every decisions is chosen by God including our leaders but to make good out evil is up to that person that is why we have a lift and right. Maybe just to test one if you will chess the right way. Like you point, these are leader with a aim of crudity in sense of saving they crown, As which we called today a Dictator .so long there is no steepning incentive we will not guerdoning them with a leadership.
quote:Originally posted by serenata
Mbay, an interesting question. In Europe we had a long tradition of kings and emperors claiming to be chosen by God. But this lead to no good. 'To be chosen by God' was mostly interpreted by those kings that no one was allowed to criticise them, and that they could act despotic.
Ich dachte sprechen wir hier über eine richtige führe, sorry. Eine führe/rin(also die richtigen) darf u. sollte auch nicht im diesem Wege gehen. Aber leider Gottes gibt so was in der Welt sehr selten.
I may have missed the right point on this topic. But when we are talking about leaders they should then be a righteous one. Which is like a one in millions.
Sere. Every decisions is chosen by God including our leaders but to make good out evil is up to that person that is why we have a lift and right. Maybe just to test one if you will chess the right way. Like you point, these are leader with a aim of crudity in sense of saving they crown, As which we called today a Dictator .so long there is no steepning incentive we will not guerdoning them with a leadership.
quote:Originally posted by serenata
Mbay, an interesting question. In Europe we had a long tradition of kings and emperors claiming to be chosen by God. But this lead to no good. 'To be chosen by God' was mostly interpreted by those kings that no one was allowed to criticise them, and that they could act despotic.
Are we choosing a leader by our self or is it from the Creator Cose this is what i use to heard in a Hadith & stories that leaders don’t come over night but choosing by God from the beginning.
quote:Originally posted by kondorong
Your quote is very thought provoking
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Does this mean that only those not capable of not getting themselves as leaders should be selected? This wisdom in that as humble but competent people would shy away from the role. Does it mean then that incompetent people usually take to politics?
Please explain more. I noticed this is a quote but you must have believed in it to use it.
No. God doesn’t choose leaders. Society does. If God chooses them, how would He explain choosing bad leaders who killed millions of people, created wars and brought suffering to mankind and yet we believe God is compassionate, leaves many questions unanswered.
There would not have been EXODUS in the Old Testament if God chooses leaedrs.
God has never come down to choose leaders and then go back to Heaven. I am not sure if God would have chosen terrible dictators who slaughtered their own people. My proof is this verse:
FA MAN YAHMAL MISKALA SARATIN KAIRAN YARA HO, WA MAN YAHMAL MISKALA SARATIN SARAN YARA HO.(Every good deed that any one does however small will be rewarded and any bad deed however small will also be accounted for).
Therefore if God will make us account for our deeds, then God therefore is not choosing leaders for us and then hold them accountable. It’s like eating your cake and then wanting to have it at the same time.
It raises the fundamental question of sin and the concept of heaven and hell. Should we blame anyone who commits sin or should any one who goes to hell have been there in the first place since he is not in control of his destiny. Do we need to try dictators in the first place since God put them there? These are fundamental problems of the interpretation of predestination and no society has struggled with this than Gambians. This believe is why you don’t see civil disobedience on the streets of Banjul and gave rise to a popular saying “Gambia No Problem”. Unfortunately there are problems but we believe God caused it and as such “ let no man keep asunder”.
It has its roots in African religion and the role of soothsayers to foretell the future who occupied the courts of the royalty. I will give you an example of paganism in the Gambia still practiced. During a child’s naming ceremony, the family slaughters a chicken in addition to a sheep. In pre-Islam, a soothsayer slaughtered the chicken and they cut off the head quickly and the chicken will jump all over and when it dies, depending on which side it laid and patterns created, will foretell what that child will be in future. Islam has not managed to take this out.
According to Bun Jeng, Prophet Solomon will be late to enter heaven for 40 years after all other prophets had entered because he would be accounting for every penny of his wealth. If prophets are accountable i don’t see why leaders cannot be accountable. Like the mandinka say: NI BEH KEBBAL KONTI LA, IBU KA ALLAH DAA BULA JEH. (When we count elders, we don’t include God. He is above an elder characteristic).
Therefore if prophets are accountable, everyone will be, which means God has given us the freedom to use our intellect to reason. That is why the first word and revelation in Islam is IQRA BIS MI RABIKA LAZI KHALAKA (Read in the name of your Lord). “Seek yee knowledge even if it means traveling to China” Prophet Mohammed.
During slavery in the West, Africans were taught a different form of Christianity justifying why they were where they were. Those who taught them knew very well that the Bible never said so. It was self-hate that was thought.
People have used this saying to confuse and legitimise authority on earth. Kings in Europe have used God to legitimise their rule as being sacred and have used religious people to throne them as though God willed it.
In pre Islam and pre Christianity in Africa such roles existed where religious persons advised the king and throne them confirming powers to speak to the spirits. You may have heard of " King Makers" in Ghana especially in the Ashanti Kingdom. The eldest in the family throne kings but he himself cannot nor any of his descendants could be kings.
It was like separation of powers and checks and balances in government. There was a separate family of King Makers and another family who were the only ones to be kings. The king maker could choose anyone in the royal line to be King but he cannot remove him once on the throne.
It has become a loose term for someone who works hard to make others succeed whilst he himself cannot help himself. In Mandingo: SIBI JANG DUBENG.(The shade of a tall palm tree is usually far away from its base and such provides shade to others whilst its base is hot.
In surat Kafirun God said : LAKUM DINI KUM WALIYA DEEN( Have your religion and i have mine, a reference from the Prophet when he was asked by the people of Mecca for him to worship their idols for some days and they will also worship his God for some days. He responded that there is no compulsion in religion and let them worship that which they want.
This underlines the fact that we have the freedom to choose and because of this freedom, we will then be accountable for what we do. TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN, MUCH IS EXPECTED.
This believe which is not a surprise is the greatest problem for democracy in the Gambia. That’s why we often hear of God’s Central Bank and Angels and Jinns voting for him even if Gambians choose not to. Unfortunately many believe in God’s Central Bank in the Gambia. It’s a lazy approach to confronting problems and “the smiling coast” is no more than the uncontrollable shaking of some one with Parkinson’s disease.
If God chooses them, how would He explain choosing bad leaders who killed millions of people, created wars and brought suffering to mankind and yet we believe God is compassionate The answer is very in your hand and very clear! Now 'tell me why there is Heaven and the Hell as well as good and evil?
FA MAN YAHMAL MISKALA SARATIN KAIRAN YARA HO, WA MAN YAHMAL MISKALA SARATIN SARAN YARA HO.(Every good deed that any one does however small will be rewarded and any bad deed however small will also be accounted for). Indeed you have answered your own questions: make a good out of evil is up to the Mankind. As He said: I Created you all& purified you but Remembers that I creates also a divile (Satan) That I may tests among you. God is not only in heave He is even very under your Nails! : He said (Yaalamu Bimataalamuna) Remembers that I know every single corn of Sand. So Dictators don’t bear as dictator!
So He knew before we even don’t start thoughting of something. Your list is long so i can’t comment all but lastly. He told us that this world is nothing among us but for TEST! And you may also know how we come to this World since from Adam. Then there no Questions Neither answer but to be sure this world is sorter than blink of eye.
quote:Originally posted by kondorong
quote:Originally posted by mbay
Are we choosing a leader by our self or is it from the Creator Cose this is what i use to heard in a Hadith & stories that leaders don’t come over night but choosing by God from the beginning.
quote:Originally posted by kondorong
Your quote is very thought provoking
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Does this mean that only those not capable of not getting themselves as leaders should be selected? This wisdom in that as humble but competent people would shy away from the role. Does it mean then that incompetent people usually take to politics?
Please explain more. I noticed this is a quote but you must have believed in it to use it.
No. God doesn’t choose leaders. Society does. If God chooses them, how would He explain choosing bad leaders who killed millions of people, created wars and brought suffering to mankind and yet we believe God is compassionate, leaves many questions unanswered.
There would not have been EXODUS in the Old Testament if God chooses leaedrs.
God has never come down to choose leaders and then go back to Heaven. I am not sure if God would have chosen terrible dictators who slaughtered their own people. My proof is this verse:
FA MAN YAHMAL MISKALA SARATIN KAIRAN YARA HO, WA MAN YAHMAL MISKALA SARATIN SARAN YARA HO.(Every good deed that any one does however small will be rewarded and any bad deed however small will also be accounted for).
Therefore if God will make us account for our deeds, then God therefore is not choosing leaders for us and then hold them accountable. It’s like eating your cake and then wanting to have it at the same time.
It raises the fundamental question of sin and the concept of heaven and hell. Should we blame anyone who commits sin or should any one who goes to hell have been there in the first place since he is not in control of his destiny. Do we need to try dictators in the first place since God put them there? These are fundamental problems of the interpretation of predestination and no society has struggled with this than Gambians. This believe is why you don’t see civil disobedience on the streets of Banjul and gave rise to a popular saying “Gambia No Problem”. Unfortunately there are problems but we believe God caused it and as such “ let no man keep asunder”.
It has its roots in African religion and the role of soothsayers to foretell the future who occupied the courts of the royalty. I will give you an example of paganism in the Gambia still practiced. During a child’s naming ceremony, the family slaughters a chicken in addition to a sheep. In pre-Islam, a soothsayer slaughtered the chicken and they cut off the head quickly and the chicken will jump all over and when it dies, depending on which side it laid and patterns created, will foretell what that child will be in future. Islam has not managed to take this out.
According to Bun Jeng, Prophet Solomon will be late to enter heaven for 40 years after all other prophets had entered because he would be accounting for every penny of his wealth. If prophets are accountable i don’t see why leaders cannot be accountable. Like the mandinka say: NI BEH KEBBAL KONTI LA, IBU KA ALLAH DAA BULA JEH. (When we count elders, we don’t include God. He is above an elder characteristic).
Therefore if prophets are accountable, everyone will be, which means God has given us the freedom to use our intellect to reason. That is why the first word and revelation in Islam is IQRA BIS MI RABIKA LAZI KHALAKA (Read in the name of your Lord). “Seek yee knowledge even if it means traveling to China” Prophet Mohammed.
During slavery in the West, Africans were taught a different form of Christianity justifying why they were where they were. Those who taught them knew very well that the Bible never said so. It was self-hate that was thought.
People have used this saying to confuse and legitimise authority on earth. Kings in Europe have used God to legitimise their rule as being sacred and have used religious people to throne them as though God willed it.
In pre Islam and pre Christianity in Africa such roles existed where religious persons advised the king and throne them confirming powers to speak to the spirits. You may have heard of " King Makers" in Ghana especially in the Ashanti Kingdom. The eldest in the family throne kings but he himself cannot nor any of his descendants could be kings.
It was like separation of powers and checks and balances in government. There was a separate family of King Makers and another family who were the only ones to be kings. The king maker could choose anyone in the royal line to be King but he cannot remove him once on the throne.
It has become a loose term for someone who works hard to make others succeed whilst he himself cannot help himself. In Mandingo: SIBI JANG DUBENG.(The shade of a tall palm tree is usually far away from its base and such provides shade to others whilst its base is hot.
In surat Kafirun God said : LAKUM DINI KUM WALIYA DEEN( Have your religion and i have mine, a reference from the Prophet when he was asked by the people of Mecca for him to worship their idols for some days and they will also worship his God for some days. He responded that there is no compulsion in religion and let them worship that which they want.
This underlines the fact that we have the freedom to choose and because of this freedom, we will then be accountable for what we do. TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN, MUCH IS EXPECTED.
This believe which is not a surprise is the greatest problem for democracy in the Gambia. That’s why we often hear of God’s Central Bank and Angels and Jinns voting for him even if Gambians choose not to. Unfortunately many believe in God’s Central Bank in the Gambia. It’s a lazy approach to confronting problems and “the smiling coast” is no more than the uncontrollable shaking of some one with Parkinson’s disease.
You gave a lazy approach to our problems. Would it not be unfair for God to punish us if He makes us do whatever we do.
He gave us the brain to think and know right from wrong. You can only be accountable if you had liberty and freedom of choice. So it goes to say that God does not choose leaders. We do and that is why we will be accountable in the next world.
If God chooses leaedrs, why did he send prophets to those leaedrs to do good. Would it not be easier to make them good people than to take the long winding road of sending prophets. Its simply because we were created sinless and free to make choices and depending on what we choose and how we do it, we will account for our deeds.
Why punish someone who does not pray, or kill people, or comit adultery or steals etc. The answer is simple. He is in control of his senses and chose a path to evil. He was not forced to do such by God.
These are not my words but look at some verses from the Holy Book: So it goes to say that God does not choose leaders. 006.123 :Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not.
If God chooses leaedrs, why did he send prophets to those leaedrs to do good. 006.125: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe. 021.073:And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds 032.024 :And We appointed, from among them Why punish someone who does not pray, or kill people, or comit adultery or steals etc.[/font=Andale Mono
Why punish someone who does not pray, or kill people, or comit adultery or steals etc. The answer is simple. He is in control of his senses and chose a path to evil. 032.021 :And indeed We will make them taste of the Penalty of this (life) prior to the supreme Penalty, in order that they may (repent and) return.
002.257 :Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).
quote:Originally posted by kondorong
You gave a lazy approach to our problems. Would it not be unfair for God to punish us if He makes us do whatever we do.
He gave us the brain to think and know right from wrong. You can only be accountable if you had liberty and freedom of choice. So it goes to say that God does not choose leaders. We do and that is why we will be accountable in the next world.
If God chooses leaedrs, why did he send prophets to those leaedrs to do good. Would it not be easier to make them good people than to take the long winding road of sending prophets. Its simply because we were created sinless and free to make choices and depending on what we choose and how we do it, we will account for our deeds.
These are not my words but look at some verses from the Holy Book: So it goes to say that God does not choose leaders. 006.123 :Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not.
If God chooses leaedrs, why did he send prophets to those leaedrs to do good. 006.125: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe. 021.073:And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds 032.024 :And We appointed, from among them Why punish someone who does not pray, or kill people, or comit adultery or steals etc.[/font=Andale Mono
Why punish someone who does not pray, or kill people, or comit adultery or steals etc. The answer is simple. He is in control of his senses and chose a path to evil. 032.021 :And indeed We will make them taste of the Penalty of this (life) prior to the supreme Penalty, in order that they may (repent and) return.
002.257 :Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).
quote:Originally posted by kondorong
You gave a lazy approach to our problems. Would it not be unfair for God to punish us if He makes us do whatever we do.
He gave us the brain to think and know right from wrong. You can only be accountable if you had liberty and freedom of choice. So it goes to say that God does not choose leaders. We do and that is why we will be accountable in the next world.
If God chooses leaedrs, why did he send prophets to those leaedrs to do good. Would it not be easier to make them good people than to take the long winding road of sending prophets. Its simply because we were created sinless and free to make choices and depending on what we choose and how we do it, we will account for our deeds.
[font=Andale Mono]
Your quotations are very irrelevant here. Lets dissect the verses.
1.006.123 :Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not. These leaders the verse referes to are religious leaedres who rule by word of God and law of Shariah. Such people dont kill, steal or commit adultery.
2.006.125: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
Only those with a free mind and freedom of choice can decided to refuse. Therefore God is saying of those who refuse to believe and not those whom He has made to refuse to believe. This still indicates we are in control of our minds. Only free people can refuse. I dont think God will make us refuse to obey him and then turn around and punish us. Would you pay a higher airticket because the pilot overlsept and did not depart on time.? Why should you be punished for actions that you had no control of.
3.021.073:And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds 032.024 :And We appointed, from among them
This is talking about prophets that God Guideth by his command. Cant you see what the Koran is referring to. Are you then saying that God speaks to jammeh because he appointed him. No wonder he also says his central Bank is from God. If he truly has his Central Bank from Go, why is he shuttling between Taiwan and Banjul begging for handouts, signing loans with WB and IMF. Its a joke and people have misinterpreted islam to satify their own actions.
No wonder he also takes to the higher Divine ground that even if Gambians do not vote for him, the Angels and spirits will vote for him because God put him there. If God put him there then God will not make him accountable for his actions. He must have been ruling according to Gods command and as such he cannot commit any wrongs because God is perfect.
4. 032.021 :And indeed We will make them taste of the Penalty of this (life) prior to the supreme Penalty, in order that they may (repent and) return.
This is very interesting. If God is making us do the bad things how come we could repent and return to him. Only free people in their right minds could repent. Repenting is a regret and you can only repent when you know bad from good and capable of understanding the difference. This morale understanding is characteristic of free people. That is why the verse: faman yahmal miskhala sharatin kairan yaraho, wa man yahmal miskhala sharatin sharan yaraho.( He said he will reward every good deed however small and every bad deed however samll. For God to reward means he is not dictating our actions. We are responsible for our decisions. Its like a school exams.)