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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 19:24:14
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The Dutch government is planning a law which makes it illegal to wear a burka or niqab in public. Obviously Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk's 'Liberal' party VVD is trying to attract extreme right wing voters with this proposal; elections will be held on Wednesday.
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 18:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by serenata
The Dutch government is planning a law which makes it illegal to wear a burka or niqab in public. Obviously Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk's 'Liberal' party VVD is trying to attract extreme right wing voters with this proposal; elections will be held on Wednesday.
i watch the ban being brocast on aljagera news(english).it so typical of the dutch. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Alhassan
Sweden
813 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 11:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by serenata
The Dutch government is planning a law which makes it illegal to wear a burka or niqab in public. Obviously Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk's 'Liberal' party VVD is trying to attract extreme right wing voters with this proposal; elections will be held on Wednesday.
Serenata,
This is nothing new. We in Sweden are following the debate about the Muslims and Islam. It seems that the Europeans have problems with the muslims, but the Muslims have no problems with the Christians.
normally, Muslims do not interfer with others cultures and practices. In Sweden we here all statements against Muslims and Islam as a whole. We have seen how the EU is dealing with Turkey. The EU does not want Muslims states to join. Only Christian states are allowed, but not written on papper. We the first generation Muslims in Sweden are lucky to have mosques and jobs. It is very clear here that having a muslim or Arabic name is a disadvantage. The unemployment is higest amongst them together with the Africans. This is a growing worry that I have because my children have Muslim and African names. People should be able to distinguish Culture and religion. This is where many people get lost today. I hope the second generation would be able to have paitent and hope for the best in the feature. I do not know the situation in the other EU countries. How is it there? |
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Cornelius
Sweden
1051 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 13:01:12
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There is a famous saying from the Quran, that everything will change except the face of Allah.
“It seems that the Europeans have problems with the Muslims, but the Muslims have no problems with the Christians.” (Al-Hassan)
Are you talking about Europe or just talking generally about Muslim-Christian relations in the world? If you are only talking generally ( Prophet Isa a.s etc) then you obviously haven’t followed whats been happening in Egypt, Sudan, Nigeria and a few other places….. because when politics enters the scene in the contest for power ( and religion is so easily used to divide and rule) then look at the latest tragedy in Lebanon’s history and it’s almost impossible to say who is behind the assassination, in my view it could be anybody.
In my opinion it could be anyone because Blair’s ” emissary Nigel Sheinwald warned Bashar Assad in Damascus a month ago, that any rapprochement would be cut short by Syrian machinations against the Siniora government or harm to any member of his cabinet.”
http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=3354#respond
So anyone who wants to mess things up properly and prevent rapprochement could also have done it…..anyone
…. But lets keep on analysing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6169606.stm
I agree with you that Muslims have no problems with Christians – basically because Muslims take the direction of the Qur’an that
"You will find the Jews and the associationists more hostile to those who believe. You will find those who say `We are Christians' the friendliest to those who believe, for many of them are monks and priests, and they are humble." (Qur'an, 5:82)
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Quran+says+that+Christians+are+closest+to+Muslims&btnG=Search&meta=
The Roman Catholic Church is very flexible in these matters and today, allows African cultures to thrive, without “interference” in some cases even polygamy thrives, the Catholic mass is said in Igbo and other African languages have also replaced the Latin (a phenomenon which is unlikely in the Universal Islam of today or that which is to come in the near future)
1. “…..normally, Muslims do not interfer with others cultures and practices” writes al-Hassan, one of the many interesting postulations in his dense response – to most of which I give my assent, but this one, with the emphasis on “normally” - well, nobody replied to an item of a fundamental Islamic commentary on vital traditional Gambian culture which I posted under the Culture Section of Bantaba
2. “We the first generation Muslims in Sweden are lucky to have mosques and jobs.” –
When I got to Stockholm, I was not aware that there was any mosque in the whole city (there was an Ahmadiyya place at Alvik) but I think that the “first generation Muslims” had no problems whatsoever in getting jobs, al-Hassan, and surely it was more than luck that caused Muslims to eventually get a big mosque in the centre of town.
About Holland – I met Professor Weetoven - then Dutch minister of Finance – at a private Sufi session in Stockholm - the Inayat Khan people – must have been in the summer of 1986 and he told me that there were 13 Mosques in – I think it was Den Haag, he said – understandably there is a large Dutch Muslim population from the former colonies ( who have no language difficulties) and as you know the Dutch are not only liberal but also practical – they have been in people relations and international relations for a very long time.
http://www.google.co.uk/searchhl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Inayat+Khan+&spell=1
Since we live in the world of cause and effect - and miracles outside of those laws seem to be more of events of the past, in the post 911 world we have inevitable repercussions, in the shape of Islamic-West relations in the West - and those relations have been affected by the West’s invasions in Iraq and Afghanistan among many other places – producing phenomena like Hirsch Ali and in less potent and more discreet dimensions, someone like Nyamko Sabuni, a very necessary and well-appointed minister of Integration and Gender Equality. More about that subject when it comes up.
We ought not forget that France (who provide a seminary for the training of Islamic Imams for Europe with its first rector being Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geurygf2NFrGkBvzOl87UF?ei=UTF-8&fr=sfp&p=Yusuf+Al-Qaradawi
who now answers questions of the Faithful on a TV station in Qatar - and to some extent legitimises terror) has been the trend setter and trail blazer as far as Hijab in schools etc is concerned.
That was a very short break. That was…in the meantime.
Now that my daily-bread work is done I should also like to add that in writing the history of Islam in Europe, paradoxically our Islamic problems in Europe are as a result of the many catastrophes, atrocities, political upheavals, repressive regimes , wars, in Muslim lands, search for knowledge , brain drain and globalisation that we have now experienced an unprecedented emigration to Europe in the past 30 or so years (overwhelmingly of refugee stock) to the extent that Sweden is quite another country today – and apart from all other non-Islamic factors, quite different from the Sweden that I arrived in October 1971 – I got here from Accra to London ( home to wife and parents) from Harwich to Göteborg from Göteborg by train to Kalmar through what looked to me like beauty without end : Van Gogh and Gauguin yellow ochre autumn colours of endless tree and meadow landscapes…. I camped for a week in Kalmar (my teeth chattered all night, in those cold nights)
In ’71 the Turks soon to embrace the EU integration policy (have to qualify to enter) but in Sweden, were already here (mostly indentured labour) Italians too (Yes indeed Pizza preceded the Kebab) Yugoslavs in greatest numbers (before the later disintegration of that country into war (spent a few days in Belgrade in 1991 and could smell the tension in the air, the inflation was so high!) – the Chileans arrived from ‘73, onwards, before the massive immigrations from Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Lebanon, Afghanistan, all North Africa , Pakistan, Ethiopia(Sweden’s favourite country in Africa, from the days when the Emperor of Ethiopia and the King of Sweden were good friends)Eritrea, and all the other nations that arrived and now in co-existence of more or less integrated within the Swedish nation and its norms, creating and compounding the drama of integration and multiculturalism, all of which is very interactive, not separative or segregated….
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-46,GGLJ:
en-GB&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Autobiography+of+Emperor+Selassie&spell=1
Swedish immigration has been very dramatic – almost overnight …..(30 years)
Don’t forget that there are a total of 25, 000 Jews in the whole of Sweden (Twenty Five thousand) and that there are some 400,000 Muslims in Sweden as of now – including Somalians, Bosnians and Albanians …….
Some call it fortress Europe… and I don’t blame them
The two latter categories previously mentioned – the Jews and the Muslims, have this problem in common: permission for ritual Kosher and halal slaughter (they are not the same)
All said and done (from a Swedish perspective) we have much to learn from others: from USA, Canada; Holland; France and the United Kingdom. |
Edited by - Cornelius on 22 Nov 2006 08:34:34 |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 17:06:46
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It seems really strange to me that the issue of womens headwear can create wars.
Alhassan you are in sweden, regarding Niqab did you ever hear of a teacher saying she coul dnot do her job in front of a man because that would mean her face would not be covered.
Also a 15 year old girl saying that a school denied her humand rights because the uniform she was made to wear was not correct for her muslim beliefs.
In the past people accepted that they lived in the west and got on with it, it was never about your rights, it was about acceptance.
secondly where is it that they cannot wear the garments in public, name the places, are they places they women can avoid.
i went to school with muslims, sikhs and hindus and they all abided by schools rules because they wanted an education, outside of the school gates the girls covered their heads with scarves. We all got along. I cannot remember them wearing the Niqab and definately never saw the Burka. They dressed modestly but stylishly.
Alhassan you are right to be aware/ alert. But unless you challenge the authorities you should be okay.
Is the dutch government which has been very tolerant towards north african muslims facing some internal backlash for their leniency, remember it was one of their MP's who spoke out against violence against muslim women in their homes, and for this he was shot.
I also wonder who will take this case to the courts of human rights. I wait for wednesday.  |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 08:03:52
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Already in 2005 a Dutch MP was asking the government to investigate if it was legally possible to prohibit the wearing of burkas (nothing of the face is shown) and niqabs (only a small slit to show the eyes). This started when some local authorities wanted women getting unemployment benefits from the state, to apply for jobs so that they could earn their own income (quite a reasonable demand, isn't it?). Of course no employer would hire a woman wearing a burka.
This is a very difficult issue. Dutch law says everybody has to be treated equally and no person should be discriminated against because of their sex, their age, their colour, their religion or their sexual preference. No employer has the right to reject an applicant on the grounds of clothing, UNLESS this employer can rightfully prove that the clothing in question endangers the employee while doing her job (working on a building site in a burka?) or when the nature of the job makes direct communication with customers necessary. In our society, communicating with people means looking them in the eyes. Doing otherwise would be considered impolite. Can you imagine a bankclerk or a hotel receptionist in a burka? Or a nursery school teacher? The children would be frightened.
A few weeks back a secondary school fired a women teacher because she refused to shake hands with men. She had been a teacher at that school for some years, had shaken hands with colleagues and visiting parents without any problem so far. When she returned to school after the summer holidays, she told the school management her religion no longer permitted her to do this. In the meantime an independent commission on legal rights told the school that the teacher should be reinstalled. The school managers will take the case to court, also because the teacher will not come back to school as long as it is not guaranteed that they will comply with her request (demand, really).
This is mostly a complicated legal matter and i think our law will not make it possible to ban religious clothing on principle. As Serenata rightly said, this issue has come up again in election time. I am no fan of our Minister of Immigration, but i still think she is brave - all the time going into debates with representatives of the Muslims in Holland, she is certainly not afraid to tell them how she feels. But on the other hand, it is 'electiontalk', these issues are popular with the (mostly) right wing voters of her political party.
Today is election day - don't expect too much of it. It is common knowledge that promises made during the campaigns are seldom kept.
I have never seen anybody wearing a burka in the Gambia, by the way. I am surprised that this would mean much to Gambians. I live in a 'black neighbourhood' of one of the big Dutch cities - when i go to the supermarket i see more women wearing headdress (only now and then a burka, and my Gambian partner is always staring at them - muttering something like 'what does she have to go around like that for') than i would see even if i stayed in the Gambia for 6 weeks.
The Belgians are prohibiting wearing a burka in the street, the women get a fine.
There are some inaccuracies in the postings above: Jambo, no Dutch politician was murdered by a muslim. You probably refer to Pim Fortuyn, a right wing politician who was shot in May 2005 by a member of an environment activists' group. In November last year Theo van Gogh, a writer/journalist/tv-presentator, was murdered (I should say slaughtered) in broad daylight in the center of Amsterdam by a Muslim (i should say terrorist, because that is what he is). The murderer was a member of an extremist group, de Hofstadgroep - a lot of members of this group have been picked up by the police, the trials are still going on. These young men are dangerous, the other day a video was shown on tv of one of them - it was a video he made himself with a webcam. It was a 'goodbye-video', a testament Palestine-style - he wore a belt of explosives.
Are the Dutch bad, because they want extremists like that removed from their society?
Cornelius, the Minister of Finance in 1986 was Onno Ruding. The name Weethoven does not ring any bell. Maybe you are talking about Wim Deetman, then Minister of Education and Science, now mayor of The Hague.
Dalton1, what is so typically Dutch about all this?
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When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 08:23:42
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I disagree with Daltons implication about Dutch people. I have always found them to be liberal minded and fair. Very different to Germans, more like the english mindset.
Anna my own view is that in peoples private life they should be allowed to go about in whatever they choose to wear. A christian should be allowed to wear a cross, and so on.
BUT in public life we have to be able to conform to the expectations of a school or work place. These expectations should be reasonable.
So women should be allowed to dress modestly if that is what they wish, but in most public jobs covering the face would make a barrier between you and the public you are dealing with. Perhaps people wishing to do this shouldnt have 'frontline' jobs? They could work in the back office and answer the phone, for example, and noone would know what they are wearing!!!
As to the teacher not shaking hands, well until recently in the UK shaking hands was something MEN did, and not WOMEN. That has changed in recent times as women have taken more professional high level jobs. It is quite easy to aviod shaking hands in most situations if you want to , without it being a big deal!!!!
BUT the bigger question is WHY are people suddenly feeling the need to be more strict or extreme in their relgious practice? WHat does it say about a society when women feel the need to cover up completely and feel uncomfortable shaking hands? I dont think it has ANYTHING to do with religion. It has EVERYTHING to do with mens attitude to women in the culture of that religion. That is why you see a variety of practice from one Muslim country to another.
Often when people are away from their homeland their racticeof religion is more extreme than those at home. So a Gambian in Gambia may be relaxed, but in UK he may suddenly be stricter. That is because his religion becomes more important as part of his identity! |
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anna
Netherlands
730 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 08:52:18
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Bev, i agree to your remark about people being allowed to wear anything they like in the privacy of their homes but should adapt to the requirements of the workplace. But what can you do if a woman applies for a job as a civil servant behind one of the information desks at the town hall and she still wants to wear the burka? She would not get the job and she could go to court because she has been denied the job because of her preference of clothing! I think this will be the most difficult issue for the government, how to avoid situations like this springing up all the time. It will be a big task for some think tank of experts in legislation.
I know people sometimes become more strict religiously when they live abroad, so as to find more security in him or herself in this strange country. Unfortunately, the young men (boys, some of them) of the Hofstadgroup were all born in Holland as was the killer of Van Gogh. |
When an old African dies, it is as if a whole library has burnt down.
Amadou Hampate Ba (Mali) |
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Cornelius
Sweden
1051 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 09:04:39
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The wonderful English Gambiebev made my morning, with this:
“I disagree with Daltons implication about Dutch people. I have always found them to be liberal minded and fair. Very different to Germans, more like the English mindset.” (GambieBev)
No foaming at the mouth here: I agree that when it comes to post-war football the Germans are not very popular in Holland but look at the English mindset as represented by one of its official representations and tell us whether Muslims are entitled to their RIGHTS (not only Human but also conceived as DIVINE) and certainly ratified by article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the right to counter-distinguish themselves by fashions of dress, even if they live in the wild West
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Jack Straw on the Muslim veil
http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&rls=ADBS%2CADBS%3A2006-39%2CADBS%3Asv&q=Jack+Straw+on++the++Muslim+veil
&meta=
Jack Straw on hijab
http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&rls=ADBS%2CADBS%3A2006-39%2CADBS%3Asv&q=Jack+Straw+on+hijab&meta=
Jack Straw vs. hijab
http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&rls=ADBS%2CADBS%3A2006-39%2CADBS%3Asv&q=Jack+Straw+vs.+hijab
&btnG=S%C3%B6k&meta=
Otherwise GambieBev is reasonable in her assessment of the scene. But she has to try to see it from the Muslim point of view, or even the Catholic Nun’s point of view. They also wear some head covering don’t they?
Very important (serious) paragraph:
“BUT the bigger question is WHY are people suddenly feeling the need to be more strict or extreme in their relgious practice? WHat does it say about a society when women feel the need to cover up completely and feel uncomfortable shaking hands? I dont think it has ANYTHING to do with religion. It has EVERYTHING to do with mens attitude to women in the culture of that religion. That is why you see a variety of practice from one Muslim country to another.” ( Gambiebev)
It will not be easy for you to show that “people SUDDENLY” feel the need - to be more strict or extreme in their religious practice” because the hijab tradition goes back to the Sunnah of the prophet of Islam and Straw law is not about to abrogate or abolish it even ina Inglan.
I think that the upsurge or increased visibility of the hijab in society is not only because of “men’s attitude to women in the culture of that religion” or men’s attitude to women in the culture of dar-al Harb or in the culture of Merry England. But I do understand that there is a sort of renaissance in fundamentalist consciousness among Muslims and converts to Islam, which has also contributed to the increase in Islamic numbers and that quite naturally because of the tendency to reassertion and strengthening of identity in the face of what many perceive as Islam under siege, there is now a PUBLIC PROBLEM where they are even in ALLAH's ENGLAND" and your attitude also contributes to the idea of “us and them” and dear Gambiebev, keep in mind that no Muslim has asked you to wear the hijab , although I think that you would look quite nice in it and still be/feel very British.
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Edited by - Cornelius on 22 Nov 2006 16:44:58 |
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kiwi
Sweden
662 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 11:32:29
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| Please note that it was SANTAFARA who wrote "so typical of the dutch", not Dalton |
kiwi |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 11:54:58
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I really don't see what the problem is of women wearing headcoverings or the veil by choice. What is the big deal? Or for that matter a crucifix, aren't there more important things for governments to concentrate on than how people dress. I find it more offensive for women wearing mini skirts just covering their behinds or men wearing shorts of the same length in public but this seems to be acceptible depending on the dictates of catwalks. Am I missing something here or isn't this an example of xyenophobia creeping into European legislature under the guise of anti-terrorism laws.
Peace
Sister Omega |
Peace
Sister Omega |
Edited by - Sister Omega on 22 Nov 2006 12:02:46 |
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Cornelius
Sweden
1051 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 13:03:42
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Sister Omega,
Just a few thoughts in reaction:
“isn't this an example of xenophobia creeping into European legislature under the guise of anti-terrorism law?” asks Sister Omega.
No, Not exactly. There is the idea of “Open Society”
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Karl+Popper+and+the+open+society&btnG=Search&meta=
Soon Hollywood will be making a movie of someone dressing up as a woman with the full Islamic undercover woman’s regalia to rob a bank…… we could write the manuscript…..
Wayyas, the speaker of the Nigerian House of Assembly, escaped from Nigeria after that 1983 coup, and he got through passport control and customs dressed as a nun. (That's a good illustration of resourcefulness - a good national value.)
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=+Wayas++%28Nigeria&meta=
The more permissive Western Culture offers a cultural bulwark against what is most feared even more than the fear of a black planet
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=fear+of+a+black+planet&btnG=Search&meta=
namely the rapid and total Islamisation of Europe. So delegitimising Muslims and cultural social rights is one way of stemming the flow of Europeans embracing Islam and making them more conscious of their own cultural traditions and values.
I used the term Islamic Renaissance – as if the post 911 world of blood, death, fire and war is “a golden age” such as the Golden Age in Spain, when what I actually meant was that Islam under stress is going through a phase which Christians would call a REVIVAL at this time when in England, Churches are being converted to mosques, such as the one at Seven Sisters Road which a Malaysian prince purchased and in which (out of curiosity) I attended a majlis held by Sheikh Muhammad Nazim al-Qubrusi al-Haqqani, a Naqsbandi Sheikh, from Larcana, Cyprus. The cross was still standing on the roof on that occasion, and the whole thing was simply not my cup of tea…..
The Golden Age of Spain
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=The+golden+age+of++Spain&btnG=Search&meta=
But when you think of Islam-Muslim relations since before the Crusades and Pope Benedict XVI’s definition that Europe = Christianity (remember that Armenia is the oldest Christian community in Europe) then we begin to understand that Islam-Christian relations have been sour for quite some time, and not only are the two religions competing for converts in Africa – a competition which Islam seems to be winning hands down in the dark continent and also in Europe ( by emigration and the petro-dollars spent on Islamic propagation) the we see the fear of Turkey as the possible TROJAN HORSE in the EU. But the EU is much stronger with Turkey as a member ( not just because Turkey has the biggest army of foot soldiers in Europe NATO) and since Turkey borders Syria, Iran, ( click on the map) and see how important Turkey would be in a military conflict between East West or even between Europe and it’s more Southern neighbours……
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=The+Crusades&btnG=Search&meta=
Because of 911 some of the West is fighting in Islamic lands, ostensibly to teach and establish democracy. Which has to be taught and then established – now by force after Saddam has been toppled by force?
Map of Europe
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Europe&meta=
Pope Benedictus XVI concept of Europe
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Pope+Bendictus+XVI+concept+of+Europe&btnG=Search&meta=
Pope Benedict
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Pope+Benedict+XVI
%27s+concept+of+Europe&spell=1
More Pope Benedict
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Pope+Bendict+XVI+%27s+concept+of+Europe&btnG=Search&meta=
Pope’s definition of Europe
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Pope+Benedictus+XVI+
definition+of+Europe&spell=1
World Pope on Europe and Islam
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=World+Pope+on+Europe+and+Islam&meta=
I asked a friend from Algeria, why are the Iraqis fighting against the Americans?
His answer was that if the Iraqis did not fight, Syria and Iran would be next……
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Edited by - Cornelius on 22 Nov 2006 16:34:52 |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 14:13:51
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Cornelius, once again I have to deal with your offences against Germans, the more as you seem to have infected others with your dirty venom. What do you have against the present Germans - in toto? What did they do to you? You say you have German relatives; so you must be at least partly German yourself. If you have problems with your own genealogy, you should work on them (if it is not too late - I mean in your age..), make peace with this part of your DNA and stop bothering others.
I don't like US politics, but I would never say 'THE AMERICANS'. It is discriminating, and it is the same like the Nazis saying 'THE JEWS'. For me, you are not better than them. All your vain pseudo-intellectual blabla, your permanent (and, as we can see now, fake) name-dropping cannot hide your 'simple' (ahem!) structures.
Some time ago I thought to cross intellectual weapons with you, but as time goes by I can see you are unarmed. |
Edited by - serenata on 22 Nov 2006 14:14:52 |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 15:47:36
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anna sorry for the in accuricies but you get my point, when people start talking about "rights of" it creates tensions.
Look at the case you state, the teacher had been at the school for a while and was respected returns from holiday "When she returned to school after the summer holidays, she told the school management her religion no longer permitted her to do this" since when if that was the case then she should not have had the job in the first place. How can she say the school is at fault.
Secondly if a person covers their face and is in a public job that is wrong, because for security purposes you have to have your picture taken, this is not about covering the head which is accepted but it is about covering their faces.
Many corporations have made allowances for peoples religion but not it is coming back to bite them. there will be astrong reaction against some of these "human rights" issues. |
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Alhassan
Sweden
813 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 16:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by jambo
It seems really strange to me that the issue of womens headwear can create wars.
Alhassan you are in sweden, regarding Niqab did you ever hear of a teacher saying she coul dnot do her job in front of a man because that would mean her face would not be covered.
Also a 15 year old girl saying that a school denied her humand rights because the uniform she was made to wear was not correct for her muslim beliefs.
In the past people accepted that they lived in the west and got on with it, it was never about your rights, it was about acceptance.
secondly where is it that they cannot wear the garments in public, name the places, are they places they women can avoid.
i went to school with muslims, sikhs and hindus and they all abided by schools rules because they wanted an education, outside of the school gates the girls covered their heads with scarves. We all got along. I cannot remember them wearing the Niqab and definately never saw the Burka. They dressed modestly but stylishly.
Alhassan you are right to be aware/ alert. But unless you challenge the authorities you should be okay.
Is the dutch government which has been very tolerant towards north african muslims facing some internal backlash for their leniency, remember it was one of their MP's who spoke out against violence against muslim women in their homes, and for this he was shot.
I also wonder who will take this case to the courts of human rights. I wait for wednesday.
Jambo,
your question "Alhassan you are in sweden, regarding Niqab did you ever hear of a teacher saying she coul dnot do her job in front of a man because that would mean her face would not be covered. "
The answer is no. These problems are too minor to fight. The Quaran does forbid you to force your wife or daughter to were these garments. It should come from them. If they feel comfortable then it is ok . I think it must be between the women and GOD. It is not for the MAN or husband to decide. One could give advice and guids but not force them. This is how I understand the tex about the dressing of women.
On the other hand, one sees both Christian prists and muslims were long garments to cover their body oth during and after prayers. This we see every day in the mosque and church. |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 16:43:28
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Anna, your arguments are differentiated, and this is how the matter should be treated. I think it goes without saying that working women should show their faces (maybe it is a prejudice but I doubt that women wearing the burka or niqab get their husbands' or male relatives' 'permission' to work outside the house). Besides this, I am in doubt if it should be prohibited to wear them. I regard it as a personal decision to wear a niqab/burka, and if the Western societies are really granting religious freedom nobody must be hindered in its practice. E.g., who would prohibit kippa and peijes for orthodox Jews? On the other hand one should not be too naive about the patriarchal traditions in many Muslim countries. Regarding the high rate of domestic violence in e.g. Turkish families, the veil may be abused to hide injuries from the public.
Whatever we may think about the burka - I noticed that western media successfully conveyed the impression that it is an 'invention' of the Taliban. This is not at all true. In Afghanistan, the burka has been a part of women's clothing for centuries, up to our times. If you look at photos from the 1960ies, -70ies, before the Taliban came to power, you'll see almost all women in Afghanistan wore it in public. |
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