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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 13:00:49
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toubab, please help me to understand what you mean by
" western culture - African culture "
I did not know that these are demarcations, or and distinctions.
Is it possible that the term African Culture is an outsider’s view, stereotypical and says more about the onlooker than the being it attempts to describe?
Are you saying that there is no difference between Eastern and Western European cultures,.... in this usage of CULTURE?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 14:52:28
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This quote sums up what I think.
"Without accepting the fact that everything changes, we cannot find perfect composure. But unfortunately, although it is true, it is difficult for us to accept it. Because we cannot accept the truth of transience, we suffer."
~Shunryu Suzuki
OK Janko,it is my opinion that African culture does not wish to develop into what is required in the 21st Century to make a Nation of the place where Africans have their home,in the area we are discussing ,this is The Gambia,OK a place delineated by boundaries drawn up by the white man, so Africans are of a mindset to carry on in ways that their fathers and their forefathers before them , and are of not of a mind to progress into modern times,today's world.
Western Culture on the other hand has evolved into the formation of Nations where you are a member of the Nation where you live and as such have responsibilities to that nation,making improvements,development and loyalty, Culture I would say is tradition and the feeling of being a member of a nation.
Eastern culture is different from both Western and African culture,that's obvious there are different beliefs and ways of doing things,BUT Eastern cultures have seized opportunities in a developing world and taken from western Culture what they want, look at China and India,Malaysia all embraced the opportunities given to enhance the living conditions of their people,by developing new products, sales and ways of working.
Is Standing still where you have been for a long time good ? Is progress good?
Who knows,all it wants is some stupid politician somewhere to issue the order to push the button to start a nuclear war,then of course devastation and we all will go back to the ways our forefathers did things,only one trouble with that,we will have forgotten what to do. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 06 Jun 2012 15:03:04 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 00:52:19
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
This quote sums up what I think.
"Without accepting the fact that everything changes, we cannot find perfect composure. But unfortunately, although it is true, it is difficult for us to accept it. Because we cannot accept the truth of transience, we suffer." ~Shunryu Suzuki
I agree with Shunryu Suzukis statement, but there is nothing in that statement that gives you or the “west” the preferential right of interpreting what CHANGE is or when change transpires.
You are now passing judgment on how and what Africa is, wishes to be and should be.
This in itself did not only say volumes about your mindset but it also show how little you know about Africa/Gambia? These self-proclaimed expertise as to how Africa and Africans are is a problem Africa of the 21st. century has to deal away with. Africa has to do away with people who pass judgment on her base on wishful thinking when they do not have the slightest idea.
For if you are the expert you claim to be, you would know that Africa has not been standing still and accepts change as the only constant. You surprise me sometimes with your centrist views about a Continent/Gambia. Not just because some of your statements are sweeping but also of their partiality.
Statements like “African culture does not wish to develop… Africans are of a mindset to carry on in ways that their fathers and their forefathers before them, and are of not of a mind to progress into modern times, today's world…” , are statements of contempt not truth. What do you expect to achieve with such overwhelming statements?
What I find most interesting is your statement that Africa is standing still, am not sure if you believe that yourself, but on the other hand why would you say so if you do not accept it as truth.
You know, Gambia is not the same Gambia at the verge of colonialism, nor at independence or in the 21st. century.
Do you know how much of Africa is in that you call "Western Culture"?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 13:21:06
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Janko,thanks,I agree with some of your last post, I have never claimed to be anything other than an observer who gives his OWN personal opinion where you pluck phrases such as "For if you are the expert you claim to be" I have NEVER claimed to be an expert nor do I consider myself one on ANYTHING,you also write "You are now passing judgment on how and what Africa is," that is true MY OWN opinion.
You write "This in itself did not only say volumes about your mindset but it also show how little you know about Africa/Gambia? These self-proclaimed expertise as to how Africa and Africans are is a problem Africa of the 21st. century has to deal away with. Africa has to do away with people who pass judgment on her base on wishful thinking when they do not have the slightest idea. " I comment on things and highlight things that I THINK Africa has to deal with,again not as an expert but as a WESTERN Observer,
You take me to task by writing"“African culture does not wish to develop… Africans are of a mindset to carry on in ways that their fathers and their forefathers before them, and are of not of a mind to progress into modern times, today's world…” , are statements of contempt not truth. What do you expect to achieve with such overwhelming statements?"
Overwhelming they may be but from MY OBSERVATIONS in Gambia and other countries in Africa (not all countries )I stick by that ,yes because of my mindset, "Statements of contempt" rubbish, observations, yes.
"Gambia is not the same Gambia at the verge of colonialism, nor at independence or in the 21st. century" of course not, TIME has moved on administrations have moved on thinking has moved on,Gambia has taken what it wants from the movement of time,telephones, mobile phones,BMW motor cars,Mercedes cars.
Health care for the average Gambian ? very limited,articles in newspapers about sick people who are appealing to be helped with their sickness because a lack of fully trained Gambian doctors,Mercy ships pay visits teams from other countries with doctors and nurses pay visits,why? because talented people in these fields can have a better standard of living outside Africa, where the vast majority of money is in the hands of a very few people.
"Do you know how much of Africa is in that you call "Western Culture"?
Of course I don't as I have often written in the posts I have made I am an Expert on no subject at all.I hope that this post has clarified some of the vitriolic pronouncements that you have written in the perception that I have on progress and culture.
Janko, you like me are entitled to go with the mindset that you have there will always be differences because we come from different cultures and as such feelings about who we are are very deep and each person tends to defend that culture,NO CULTURE is perfect. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 08 Jun 2012 13:29:23 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 23:01:32
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There is a Mandinka saying that; if you want your hair done like X’s if you have enough hair you would not have enough wax.
Well toubab, am glad that we agree on something, that you are no expert and that Africa/Gambia is not standing still. Hence standing still and lack of development are two different conditions. Honestly, I still do not understand why you think Africa/Gambia is standing still.
You know am getting allergic to people who visit a couple of countries or know a country or two in Africa with a limited duration of stay making absolutist statements. Be it personal opinion or not does not make such sweeping statements more credible.
Surely you did state your personal view, but that does not make your statement more or less factual.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 00:18:06
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Janko,admittadly personal views are not facts,exactly the same applies to your personal views as to mine,all that you are saying is that your personal views are better than those of outsiders (me) because you were steeped in the culture you come from,exactly the same as I am,I can see many faults in my culture,you apparantly can see none and anyone who dares to have an opinion on your culture is automatically wrong, in this contuing discussion, you make no comment on the state of Gambian health provision for the average Gambian,all that you seem to be highlighting is what personal faults you percieve in the opinions that I hold and have observed over a considerable length of time in Gambia, I accept that I know little of MANY countries in Africa,yes ,that's a fact,you write "Honestly, I still do not understand why you think Africa/Gambia is standing still" and I honestly cannot imagine how you get to make that statement it is self evident.Something else that is a fact is that you and I will never agree,probably a culture thing MAYBE.
We can bang on for ages and ages but both will remain on their own ground with little or no movement. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 16:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
Janko,admittadly personal views are not facts,exactly the same applies to your personal views as to mine,all that you are saying is that your personal views are better than those of outsiders (me) because you were steeped in the culture you come from,exactly the same as I am,I can see many faults in my culture,you apparantly can see none and anyone who dares to have an opinion on your culture is automatically wrong,...
No toubab, this is not about your personal view against mine, rather your personal view about my existence, my people, Africa/Gambia.
The fact is you cannot claim equal knowledge in what you call “Jankos culture” hence the reason you are an outsider is an indication that I am an insider and slightly more versed in it than you are. But then being an outsider does not give you a free mandate or that everything you say is correct, infact that makes you more prone to having it wrong. I am equally prone to have things wrong where it concerns your culture.
For you Gambia is standing still but for me Gambia may have developmental issues but she is not the same Gambia just for 20 years ago not to mention since independence. Where you see “fathers and Forefathers” I see transformation, change of values and the strife to be part of the modern world.
Toubab, I do not have problem with criticism but I have problem with know-alls.
I see things that need to be reformed but that does not mean that anything would do.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 18:25:34
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"Toubab, I do not have problem with criticism but I have problem with know-alls."
I have a problem in civility with those I try to hold a discussion with,I admit my mistakes when I make them I admit that my culture is not perfect far from it,I am of the opinion that development for the average Gambian has not taken place in Gambia for tens of years,why? because MOST Gambians are content not to have development,their choice entirely,nothing at all to do with anyone else,again my opinion.
I think that you do have a problem with criticism.
Thankfully my opinion is my own and does not belong to anyone else.
"No toubab, this is not about your personal view against mine, rather your personal view about my existence, my people, Africa/Gambia."
Janko,the world outside Africa ( I include the Arab world )has poured a great deal of money,and expertise in trying to "make thing better" for Gambia and African countries,
(OK in some cases for selfish reasons like OIL and minerals !) result ? you tell me.!!!!
Janko, it is obvious just like Koffi Annan's peace efforts in Syria, a failure.
Or Europe trying to solve the Euro problem,again a failure
Any form of common ground does not exist between you and I on this topic. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 09 Jun 2012 18:28:08 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 23:19:10
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
...I am of the opinion that development for the average Gambian has not taken place in Gambia for tens of years,why? because MOST Gambians are content not to have development...
It is such baseless statements that, in my opinion, are contemptuous, poorly substantiated and empty of good intentions. I wonder what you intend to achieve with such statements.
You drew a conclusion; Gambians are content not to have development without stating the underlying factors that made you come to such a conclusion.
You see, I do not believe one bit that your personal views in this matter are not tainted with your cultural values, even if that's what you tend to invoke.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 14:03:26
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Janko,you have run out of steam my friend,you expect me to keep posting my opinions and ideas whilst you post no ideas or facts of your own but are happy to keep asking me to explain in more detail what I have written, discussion,evaluation of differing views or personal opinions ? I don't think so I think that all your postings on this topic are all slanted towards demolishing the independence of differing points of view,enough.
I leave the readers of bantaba to examine what has been written and make up their own minds.
As usual,for reasons best known to themselves, MOST bantaba posters,have decided that they will not post on this topic but leave us to interact alone.
There are no winners no losers,just differing mindsets,probably a culture thing ! or just maybe two people who will never agree of how they see the future of Gambia and MOST of Africa,you will remember that I am not an expert ,but I can make observations,most of which appear to be diametrically opposed to how you observe things,and have written about in this topic. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 10 Jun 2012 14:16:47 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 00:35:05
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Differing points of view, indeed… toubab, you amaze me.
Is it my fault that you are unwilling to answer my question(s)? Let me put it this way; what good have your statements for Gambia/Africa.
Finally, “African Culture” exists only in the West and in your mindset, not in Africa/gambia.
Maybe the Bantabarians do not have time for this topic.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 00:49:29
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Janko,"Differing points of view, indeed ? toubab, you amaze me."
I am happy that you are amazed,that's a change from, " toubab can you please explain ".
I will now join "the Bantabarians do not have time for this topic." . |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 11 Jun 2012 00:51:52 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 11:48:03
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| well, well, that is no answer to my question, is it. |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
Edited by - Janko on 11 Jun 2012 11:49:07 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 13:26:46
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Tribe, Cast and Ethnicity
Tribe, Cast and Ethnicity are not just inappropriate but also inadequate terms that cannot describe
the dimension and extensiveness of our social relations, hence they stem from the English language.
They are terms use to explain the unknown, that is why they are perceived offensive.
They are offensive because of their stigmatic inclinations and stereotypical implications.
Understand me well, am not saying the English language is inappropriate but that we should be mindful to use these terms in describing our social relations. Hence these terms are very superficial and do not uncover the complexity of our social relations.
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
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