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Pappa
USA
76 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 08:07:26
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I'm starting to lack faith in the AU. Can you believe what they're saying no to
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5132692.stm
Africa would forever suffer.
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When opportunity and prepareness meet, it leads to success!
Great Phonecard rates and a lot more, at affordable prices, check it out at http://www.pjoof.com |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 11:40:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pappa
I'm starting to lack faith in the AU. Can you believe what they're saying no to
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5132692.stm
Africa would forever suffer.
pappa ,
this is typical of the BBC bad reporting. focus on Africa is always like this focusing on the bad stories without any substance.
ok , it have been rejected but we are not given any reason why? was it totally rejected or put back on the table to be modified or even improved? no details at all.
i think the AU already has strong democracy stance, automatic suspension upon coup d'etats is something already practiced.
i personally hope that they dont hand over Habre to Belgium. how Belgium can give it self powers to try people for crimes outside Belgium is beyond me, considering their own brutality and mass murder in the Congo only 50-100yrs ago. they should start with themselves!!
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Pappa
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 12:12:55
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Bad reporting it must be, Njucks. BBC didn't clearly state whatever the reason behind the rejection. Obviously, with an issue like this, I would expect a very genuine reason why it gets rejected, because I doubt if an organization of great importance such as AU would just outrightly reject something that would enbetter African's living conditions. That would be totally disturbing.
Hopefully, this issue comes back on the table to get affirmated.
Belgians on the other hand are hypocrites, period!!!!!!!!! |
When opportunity and prepareness meet, it leads to success!
Great Phonecard rates and a lot more, at affordable prices, check it out at http://www.pjoof.com |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 12:34:59
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precisely!,
regarding Habre, i have just learnt that the AU has also decided that he will/should not be sent to Belgium. atleast some people are thinking.
this is what his lawyer had to say
[b]"Belgium is a colonialist. Belgium created a genocide in Rwanda and Congo. Belgium cannot accuse an African man, it is the new colonisation. Why Belgium? Hissein Habre is a Chadian."
you can read more
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=54341&SelectRegion=Africa&SelectCountry=AFRICA |
Edited by - njucks on 02 Jul 2006 12:05:57 |
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Jack
Belgium
384 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 22:31:35
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pfff, 
very low njucks. very disappointed in that kind of oneliners.
a Belgian citizen,where democracy is a fact (not perfect) but a fact. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 22:45:43
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i'm sorry didn't mean to offend any one. but what was posted were FACTs and quoted. but to make it easy for everyone, perhaps you can explain to us how belgian law can apply to foreign citizens for crimes in foreign countries (sometimes their own) yet not applicable to belgian citizens for crimes in foreign countries.
imagine you and i, a gambian have a fight (v. unlikely  ) in the gambia and you go back to belguim and take me to court and i am flown over to be tried.??????
also a quick one is it applicable to Bush, Blair,Sharon & Co??
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 01:02:47
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| Thanks Njucks for providing facts for the readership to be exposed to the sources of your information and the substance and clarity of your position on political issues. Thats impressive boy, carry on! |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 14:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Jede
pfff,
very low njucks. very disappointed in that kind of oneliners.
a Belgian citizen,where democracy is a fact (not perfect) but a fact.
Sorry, Jede, but it is right: Belgium's role in the Rwanda massacre was so dubious that they lost all rights to play the judge. |
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Jack
Belgium
384 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 15:46:25
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First of all Serenata, Belgium didn't organise the genocide . They were there under a mandate of the UN and were not allowed to use weapons. But the effective role of Belgium in Ruanda is not fully know to me, so I won't discuss that further on. But I do know a lot of western countries who have a far more unhealthy reputation .... in hotspots all over the world by playing policeman, without a mandate of the international community.
Secundly about the genocide law, as it is called in Belgium. It's not the purpose of the Belgian state to judge someone. The purpose is to give victims all over the world the possibilty to make judisciary steps towards those who are responsible for war-crimes, genocides. In 2003 this Belgium law has been weakened under pressure of the US and with the chantage of the US to move the headquarters of the NATO out of Brussels. Belgium is by this law just offering a neutral and objective court to victims all over the world. More over those who want to use this service must be a Belgian citizen or living at least 3 years in Belgium on a permanent and legal basis. You can of course have doubts about the objectivity of our system, but I prefer to use the courts in western europe rather than those in Africa (or other countries with a bad reputation for that matter). Furthermore I do prefer our system above the one from the US (Guantanamo) where they deport people and put them into jail and out of sight of any democratic system.
But I do agree that a small country like Belgium is not the best place in the world to organise that. I prefer that the european community would have that kind of courts. But I'm convinced that for severe crimes it is necessary to have courts out of the country or even away form the continent where the crimes happened.
So if someone wants to see Habre for that court he or she must be Belgian or staying at least 3 years in Belgium. I don't see what is wrong with that.
It would be a big advance to the whole AFRICAN continent if they organise fair and objective courts by themselves. But so far I didn't see any progress. Do you ?
And saying Belgians are colonialists as the laywer of Habre said? Sure till 1960. But what country didn't have African colonies in that era ? England, Germany, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, France, That kind of oneliners nowadays is .... not correct and very offending.
So Njucks, don't worry. If we have a fight (I agree it will not happen), they won't give you a free ticket to appear before a Belgian court. And for just a fight they don't jail anyone here. They just let him cool off one night.
ci jamaa |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 17:12:09
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Jede, President Habyarimana’s supporters accused the Belgians of involvement in his assassination, which led directly to the massacre. They never presented any proof, but I remember some articles in German newspapers saying that Belgium constantly fueled the fire by playing off the Tutsis against the Hutus. I'll do some further research, because it is of course not ok to make a statement on vague informations.
The historical roots of this terrible massacre even go back to the days when Rwanda was a German colony. Wikipedia writes: "The turning point was the Scramble for Africa and the Berlin Conference, held in 1885. Rwanda and Burundi were ceded to Germany and administered as a joint colonial territory. Because the Germans did not intend to colonize Rwanda themselves, they sought to rule indirectly by appointing an elite class of indigenous inhabitants which could act as functionaries. Drawing on John Hanning Speke's Hamitic Theory of Races, and recognizing that the Tutsi held political power in Rwandan society, they chose the Tutsi to rule. This development further exacerbated the divide between Tutsi and Hutu both economically and politically; historians speculate that it is to be one of the root factors leading to the extreme hostility between the two groups.
Following World War I, Rwanda became a protectorate of Belgium, whose colonial policy over the territory followed the German example and is considered especially influential in priming the genocide."
On the other hand it is true that the only 'Western' soldiers to help in this conflict were Belgians. But they were few, some of them even lost their lives in April 1994. This massacre is a shame for all who watched it and did nothing; in this sense the whole world is guilty.
As certain states refuse to join the International Court of Justice, in principle I regard this Belgian law as very useful, and I would encourage them to prosecute as many types like Habre as possible. But you can't deny that the fact that Belgium was a colonial master brings some credability problems. So it would be good if another, 'neutral' state could follow its example and pass a similar law. |
Edited by - serenata on 03 Jul 2006 17:14:56 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 20:48:18
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Serenata infact the root of the genocide can go back to colonialism but Gambia was colonised too. why didnt we chop each other into peices? i think the whole point this debate is for Africans to face up to their realities!
countries that go to War have to face up to their immediate past, imagine the Nuremberg trials in NY or London. it wouldnt have the same feeling. Even War has to be conducted properly. Charles Tailor, Habre, Mengustu all should be tried in Africa and punished/jailed there! by taking them to Europe the victims are robbed of the chance to see justice and also it sends that the message that Africa is scared to stand up to these men.
Jede i got your point but mine is that if justice it the primary objective of these type of laws then there should be no time frame to limit their application. Belgian rule in the Congo was an acute classroom lesson for Habre & Co.
Your monarch Leopald II ruled it with breathtaking brutality for Rubber and other resources and if his kingom is to make laws against genocide then it must apply to those invovled and the State itself.
lets not forget the Britain, France, Spain, Portugal etc have not enacted such laws and they know precisely why. Belgium has and that why it lacks credibility.
i have been to your country and infact the first time i was there there was an exhibition about Belgium's past in the Congo. its was in one of the Museums. i can't remember the name.
this is from a missionary
''I was so moved, Your Excellency, by the people's stories that I took the liberty of promising them that in future you will only kill them for crimes they commit''
sound like genocide to me.
its from the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3516965.stm
read King Leopald Ghost and other books on the Congo. or simply google image it and see for yourselve. |
Edited by - njucks on 03 Jul 2006 20:48:58 |
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Jack
Belgium
384 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 21:49:01
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Njucks,
I know the history of my country and we are all well aware (and ashamed) of the behaviour of our royal family, especially the cruelities of Leopold II in his personnal play garden The Congo. At that time the Congo was his personnal possession ??? Later he gave it to the Belgium state.
The museum you visited must be the Museum of Central Africa in Tervuren, close to Brussels.
By the way that was in 1885 till 1908. Since then Belgium was victim of 2 world wars. I think that's history, a painfull one. That doesn't mean that a nation can't say anything on the international level 100 years later.
And if you look at big Brother USA. They killed alsmost the whole autochtone population from Northern America, they even do this these days all over the world and they claim to be the most democratic, fair country of the world. The standard of states ??? |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 22:19:42
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lol
i guess we're all on the same side. i'm equally ashamed of the wars in africa especially since they target not institutions or the military but ordinary people,the population.Darfur is a painful,helpless example. i have friends who have been there and their stories will make you cry.
thats why i think Charles Taylor should have been tried in Africa.
lets face it, in his prison cell within the EU, with a TV etc, he would even enjoy a better standard of living than most people.
the USA is your Brother not mine. |
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Alhassan
Sweden
813 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 12:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
lol
i guess we're all on the same side. i'm equally ashamed of the wars in africa especially since they target not institutions or the military but ordinary people,the population.Darfur is a painful,helpless example. i have friends who have been there and their stories will make you cry.
thats why i think Charles Taylor should have been tried in Africa.
lets face it, in his prison cell within the EU, with a TV etc, he would even enjoy a better standard of living than most people.
the USA is your Brother not mine.
njucks,
I think the fear of Charles Taylors private Soldiers breaking into the prison in Sierraleone is easier than when he is in Belgium. It is for the security's sake that he was transfered. I only hope that the UN finds solutions to how people should be tried for international crimes. Afrikan courts can be totally corrupted easily by money. We have seen such in the Gambia and other African countries. I support the fact that war crime criminals be tried a fair court. I belive the international court is more fair. Even Senegal is corrupt. I hope both Taylor and Habre should face a fair court and tried without the risk of being freed by their private soldiers.
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 20:01:57
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| Pappa and Alhassan the bbc report did not state who is against it, no names were mentioned. Who is to say what is an unpopular president. If is based on the length of terms that is different than getting rid of someone who is unpoplular, think about it. The au is a recommendation panel, it has no enforcement laws. |
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kassma
334 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 20:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
Serenata infact the root of the genocide can go back to colonialism but Gambia was colonised too. why didnt we chop each other into peices? i think the whole point this debate is for Africans to face up to their realities!
countries that go to War have to face up to their immediate past, imagine the Nuremberg trials in NY or London. it wouldnt have the same feeling. Even War has to be conducted properly. Charles Tailor, Habre, Mengustu all should be tried in Africa and punished/jailed there! by taking them to Europe the victims are robbed of the chance to see justice and also it sends that the message that Africa is scared to stand up to these men.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3516965.stm
read King Leopald Ghost and other books on the Congo. or simply google image it and see for yourselve.
we were not divided and manipulated to the extent rwandans were. belgiums are responsible for that massacre, hands down! a man who throws away a lit cigarette which in turn turns into a fire and hurts someone is responsible. in this case, that man would be belgium. |
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