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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 13:44:26
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Toubab 1020! Would like to hear more from you?
1. I disagree that "no party is prepared to join up with another party, for that's not what is well articulated under P.D.O.I.S ON A UNITED FRONT 
2. What's the rationale or fundamental reason "To join up with another party"
3. Any simple advise on HOW political parties can "join up" together? |
Edited by - kobo on 15 Oct 2011 13:56:01 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 17:03:57
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Kobo,I would love to be able to add input to solve the impasse of the reasons why " no party is prepared to join up with another party" I am not into politics at all but offer my perception to the question.
1) None of the party leaders want to share power
2) Tribalism is endemic in Gambian culture,with the result that Gambians are MORE than likely to vote for the party leader who is from their tribe.
3) EFFECTIVE Negotiation cannot take place between the parties because of tribal distrust.
4) There is no sense of Gambia as a nation,only tribal allegiance
5)ANY administration looks after its own tribe members by giving jobs,contracts, whatever ,not on merit of being good at a particular function but by being well connected to tribal members in high places.
6)Once ANY administration is in power it has access to money,from the people,from banks,from "donor countries",from customs revenue,and I am sure from other sources,therefore any administration,will remain for a long time.
7)There appears to be no election rules on how much can be spent and on what (open to correction from those who know)
8)The Gambian people APPEAR to want a single strong leader who can tell them the direction to take,because they feel they are not wise enough to understand the complexities of government,(not being a Gambian this may not be true)
9) Any party who is not in power has not got money to mount a campaign to have an effective voice at ANY election.
It is my belief that the existing system will persist for many years to come because the people are not really interested and do not understand.
These are the thoughts of a Simple man and not a politician I want to make that very clear. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 15 Oct 2011 17:07:04 |
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Senegambia
175 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 18:12:34
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| Toubab, I disagree with your so called perceptions. In addition- I know that you are not Gambian and you dislike politics- points 2, 3, 4, 5 only shows that you really do not know gambia or gambians. Infact I am disappointed that you you would take us to be this tribal.. Tribe has very little, if any, to do with any failure or success of opposition talks. You can take that from me. |
Tesito
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 20:05:10
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OK that's fine Senegambia ,all that you have written is that I am wrong about tribalism,I can only write from my experience, I am not Gambian,agreed, can you advance any ideas as to why unity failed ? this will help educate me into my knowledge of Gambia and Gambians which is very far from complete I grant you.
I stress that I am not knocking anyone,all I can do is compare what I know and the way that I am used to in a culture that I am used to.
I look forward to your ideas to educate me to show how wrong my perceptions are in your response. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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buba
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 20:31:51
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| Toubab, i think you are right to some extent, but sadly, this is universal, not only a Gambian problem. There may be no tribal politics in UK, but a lot of stigmatisation. I was at Hackney Central Library when two elderly white ladies walked in, sat across the table saying: '...i heard he is jewish' in reference to Michael Howard when he was elected Tory Leader. I wonder what his background got to do with his political life. Back to Gambian politics, i believe it is more of self interest-driven to tribal-driven! For example, the total votes for the President during the last election was 300k+. Although we do not know the identities of these voters, but i can put my hand on my chest to argue that they were not all jolas. The same goes for other candidates! In short, tribal voting alone cannot produce a president, even for a mandinka , who form almost half the population because it is impossible for them to unanimously vote for one candidate only. One area i agree with you is prevalence of political unawareness. Short-term gains, unware of one's basic rights, general perception that real power comes not from the people, but the other way round, etc, etc... I am not also a politician, but i'm interested in how they run my country as a tax payer. |
Edited by - buba on 15 Oct 2011 20:40:38 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 21:54:09
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buba,Hackney,has always been a social melting pot full of socially aware extreme left wing people,I have no doubt at all that that comment was made,not because he was specifically jewish but he came from a perceived class of well off people who had power,many of who are jews.
Gambia now,"tribal voting alone cannot produce a president, even for a mandinka , who form almost half the population because it is impossible for them to unanimously vote for one candidate only" point taken ,it is interesting that you chose to specify mandinka as an opposition,what is the tribe of the previous president ? who if I remember rightly has the title "father of the nation" and has returned to his homeland after a period in exile.
There have only been two presidents of The Gambia since "the former colonial power" gave back the country to the Gambians to rule.
Have you any opinion as to the other points that I wrote?,if so would you like to add your input? listed in my previous post numbered 1 to 9
As regards your tax payer comment,to be fair I do not know of any administration who specifically lists exactly what "they" spend the tax payers money on,I suppose in the UK there must be lists of numbers where all the money is spent somewhere,although I have never heard of such lists being in existence,just pay up mate,like the rest of us,the financial chaos in the world at the moment is very very serious and just like this topic we are discussing now seems unsolvable and could lead to catastrophic consequences for everyone |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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buba
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 22:48:44
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| Toubab, i think you misunderstood my posting regarding the mandinka bit. What i meant was that if voting is tribal or were to be tribal, i do not believe any candidate can win. The reason i mentioned the mandinka tribe is because they are closer to half the population, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE IN OPPOSITION AS YOU IMPLIED. It is difficult to write...i hope this clarifies. You are right, Gambia had two Presidents, one being mandinka and the other jola, but that cannot justify your tribal voting argument because neither Jawara nor Jammeh were single-handedly elected by their respective tribes. This is what i was trying to put across in a nutshell. Please do not insinuate, this topic is always sensitive... |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 00:06:48
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buba,I didn't mean to insinuate or imply anything,sorry if I gave that impression,I stated a fact that was that the first president was from the mandinka tribe,and the existing administration the president is from the jola tribe,there have only been two presidents and there are several tribes in Gambia,this discussion is why different political parties cannot find common ground for unity ,political parties who have different agendas but the make up of each is a majority of one tribe or another,none of the parties can get to grips with anything,and a major cause of that is the make up of the membership of those parties,I hope that helps.
I concede that winning an election cannot be carried out without the participation of other tribes,BUT whichever tribe is in administration MANY good jobs and contracts go to members of that tribe,even if that person or company is not the best candidate for the function or contract for which they are employed .
Belonging to a different culture,I find it difficult to understand tribal matters,I understand citizenship and nationhood better,I cannot understand the reasons behind your firmly held view that "this topic is always sensitive..." But that's my problem because I am not of the same culture as you,so as I cannot understand it is far better that I do not get involved in matters that I do not understand,sorry.
I don't understand politics I have made that very clear,but here I am writing words about a subject that I dislike and don't understand,however the views of others outside a system of any sort can sometimes be useful. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 16 Oct 2011 00:11:45 |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 10:08:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Senegambia
Toubab, I disagree with your so called perceptions. In addition- I know that you are not Gambian and you dislike politics- points 2, 3, 4, 5 only shows that you really do not know gambia or gambians. Infact I am disappointed that you you would take us to be this tribal.. Tribe has very little, if any, to do with any failure or success of opposition talks. You can take that from me.
1. It would be interesting to see your reactions and inform us the reasons you understand for "failure or success of opposition talks"
2. WHY CAN'T THEY UNITE TO SALVAGE THE COUNTRY; AND WHAT IS UNDERMINING, "NATIONAL INTERESTS", "NATIONALISM", "UNITY", "PARTNERSHIP", "SOLIDARITY" FROM "OPPOSITION CAMP"
3. Why these vocal militants namely Mathew K. Jallow, S.S. Daffeh & Sountou (as kinsmen/militants of UDP and NRP so-called "majority or popular constituency") don't argue on credibility and strategic proposals with Halifa Sallah/PDOIS but direct personal attacks and prejudices on any consideration for a coalition building strategy, discussions and negotiations? Halifa Sallah is most hated politician, not accorded due respect befitting to ANY ORDINARY CITIZEN (ESPECIALLY A SENIOR COMMUNITY LEADER, SENIOR CITIZEN, MENTOR, FREEDOM/HUMAN RIGHTS FIGHTER FOR NATION & AN ASSET TO THE NATION IN TERMS OF POLITICS, SOCIAL AND NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT); always castigated with all sorts of caricatures and the villain by those individuals cited as example, when opposition parties are trying to work on coalition/alliance/merger against Jammeh/APRC; on what grounds
4. WHY IS HAMAT BAH (MATHEW K. JALLOW'S LEADER & KINSMAN) CONSIDERED A CREDIBLE POLITICIAN AND NOT A LIABILITY WITHIN OPPOSITION CAMP; AS HE IS ALWAYS GIVEN A LEEWAY TO GET AWAY WITH ANY DIRTY TRICKS, DOUBLE STANDARDS AND CREATE CONTROVERSIES THAT HAMPERED OPPOSITION PROGRESS TOWARDS UNITING? HOWEVER THIS TIME AROUND HAMAT BAH IS INDEFENSIBLE, AS MATHEW K. JALLOW BLAST HIM WITH THESE;
"Hamat Bah on the one hand,a man who seems to lack even the most basic reverence for the Gambia’s dire predicament....
NRP’s Hamat Bah on the one hand is driven not by an insatiable lust for political power, but by a dumb inability to take into serious consideration both the political ramifications of contesting in the elections as an independent NRP candidate and the tribal dynamics that overshadow Gambian politics.
The National Reconciliation Party’s Hamat Bah had one hell of an excuse to not fall in line behind Ousainou Darboe, and it is as lame as it is laughable."
5. REFLECT ON THESE OPINIONS FROM A HIGHLY EDUCATED UDP MILITANT & KEY MEMBER OF UDP-UK? BY BAMBA K. MASS Opinion: Mandingos In The Gambia Should be to Blame for Keeping The Dictator Yahya Jammeh In Power when he is Declared Winner of November Elections
6. BAMBA K. MASS ON 5. ABOVE PLAYING THE TRIBAL CARD TO MOBILISE FOR UDP QUOTED;
"Self eluded pride was destroying a lot of mandinkas thus barring them of achieving anything. It was evident while other tribes continue looking for plan B, the mandinkas sit and talk about each other who supports Yahya Jammeh and who does not. Some believed they are most backward of all the tribes in the Gambia as a result of their own infighting. Where other tribes continue to secretly see each other to resolve issues, the Mandinkas monger telephoning agents of Yahya Jammeh about the activities of each other. What length a Mandinka would be prepared to see a fellow Mandinka sacked by his/her job, become mad or even dead was believed by some to be immeasurable.
I sometimes wonder if the actual Mandinka problem of disunity did not start far back by the "Kaabu Turubang Kansala war with the Fulas". Please if so, I appeal to the Fulas to release the Mandingos of the charm they inflicted on them thus their disunity because hatred, disunity and self destruction has and continue to be venom in the mandinka vein to this day."
7. WHY IN SOME CIRCLES; HAMAT BAH/NRP IS MORE SUPERIOR POLITICIAN THAN HALIFA SALLAH/PDOIS
8. WHAT ARE THE STRATEGIC REASONS FOR UDP PREFER TO ALLY WITH HAMAT BAH & NRP THAN OTHER OPPOSITION LEADERS AND PARTIES; AS WITH THE UDP/NRP 2006 ALLIANCE
9. ARE THESE OPINIONS WRONG FOR GAMBIAN OPPOSITION BECAUSE "TRIBALISM" AMONGST OTHERS ARE THERE ON THESE QUOTES;
"Opposition parties constitute the other part of the counter-force. In too many places, the opposition lack focus, hopelessly divided, disorganized and prone to bickering. Even worse, the message of freedom has become contaminated with religion, ideology, tribalism, secession and other sectarian issues. This has enabled African dictators to become masters at outsmarting their opponents and quashing protest. " George B.N. Ayittey, Ph.D.
"The fragmentation of opposition parties on the basis of nationalist tribal politics and selfish individualist ambition of power struggle for leadership, have continued to put The Gambia in the map of nation-states stuffed and starved for a political change, for yelling to functioning democracy and rule of law. Abdou Karim Sanneh's opinion with The Daily News |
Edited by - kobo on 16 Oct 2011 15:33:25 |
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Senegambia
175 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 17:54:20
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Hi Toubab (and Kobo)! To avoid being hypothetical, I can tell you why I think the talks fail if and when they do - which I hope will not happen. I believe the talks are still ongoing...
Toubab, I may disagree with you here and there but I do appreciate your take on issues. Keep coming with them no matter who thinks what :)
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Tesito
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 18:08:39
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THAT'S REALLY NICE!
I HAVE COMPILED A SPECIAL PAPER AND ALSO WOULD PRESENT IT AFTER CONCLUSION OF ON-GOING TALKS
AM NOT PRE-EMPTING BUT I WOULD APPRECIATE THEM ACHIEVING THESE;
1. AGREEMENT ON COMMON GROUND BEYOND PARTISAN OR ANY INDIVIDUAL(S) INTERESTS
2. RESOLUTIONS ON FORMATION FOR A GRAND COALITION; "UNITED NATIONAL FRONT" PARTICULARLY A "MERGER OF POLITICAL PARTIES" TO REPRESENT ALL COALITION PARTNERS; RATHER THAN GLOSSING IT WITH AN AWKWARD OUTLOOK LIKE THE PARTISAN IMAGE ON "PARTY-LED COALITION"
3. DRAFT AN M.O.U AND INCORPORATING A BINDING PACT FOR TRANSITION OF COALITION/ALLIANCE
4. TEMPORARY PUTTING ASIDE ALL PARTY MANIFESTO TO UNITE UNDER "ONE UMBRELLA" AND WITH A COALITION FLAG-BEARER, SERVING COALITION PARTNERS DURING TRANSITION
5. AGREE ON "CONSENSUS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE/FLAG BEARER"? PLEASE TAKE NOTE, THAT THIS TIME AROUND LAWYER OUSAINOU MAY BE LEADING CONTENDER AND THERE MUST BE A CRITERIA OR SELECTION PROCESS TO GRANT HIM MANDATE TO LEAD THE COALITION/ALLIANCE/UNITED FRONT; WHICH CANNOT BE CONSTRUED AS "PARTY-LED" BUT CAN BE ENDORSED OR BLESSED THROUGH "UNANIMOUS" OR "CONSENSUS"; CONSTRAINED BY TIME AND AVOIDING SETTING A BAD PRECEDENT
6. BUILT ON NADD EXPERIENCE, ADMIT THE FAULTS, ADDRESS OR ADJUST ALL TECHNICAL/CONSTITUTIONAL MISTAKES ON NADD; ESPECIALLY AGREEING TO REGISTER IT FOR UNIFORMITY/CONFORMITY AND PUT FORWARD ALL CANDIDATES AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE UNDER "NAME OF UNITED FRONT" / "COALITION" / "ALLIANCE"; DESIGNING SPECIAL BANNERS, SYMBOLS, COLOUR AND PROPER MISSION STATEMENT; AS THERE IS NO ROOM TO JUMP INTO BAND WAGON OR REGISTER THEM UNDER ANY OF RIVAL POLITICAL PARTY NAME; FOR INSTANCE IT CANNOT BE UNDER UDP, NRP, PDOIS, GMC, PPP AND/OR GPDP
7. BUILT NETWORKS, ESTABLISH A CENTRAL BUREAU, RELY ON MEDIA (PRINT & ON-LINE) TO DISSEMINATE THE FREEDOM MESSAGE, TO MOBILISED DIASPORA AND BE SPONSORED BY ALL MILITANTS (IRRESPECTIVE OF PARTY & NON-PARTISAN), CIVIL SOCIETIES, RIGHTS GROUPS AND ANY POTENTIAL SPONSOR THAT CAN GIVE MORAL OR FINANCIAL SUPPORT |
Edited by - kobo on 16 Oct 2011 19:10:48 |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 19:15:26
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Thanks for that, I am very pleased that you "do appreciate your take on issues." and not consider me to be interfering with matters that do not concern me.
quote:
Originally posted by Senegambia
Hi Toubab (and Kobo)! To avoid being hypothetical, I can tell you why I think the talks fail if and when they do - which I hope will not happen. I believe the talks are still ongoing...
Toubab, I may disagree with you here and there but I do appreciate your take on issues. Keep coming with them no matter who thinks what :)
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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