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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 17:25:47
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| Turk, I am happy to be inexperience and what have you so long as such a remark comes from you of all people. Take a hike. I understood you better than you understand youself and all that you stand for. Hence, continue taking the piss. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 19:49:31
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You think you understood! Obviously not. Don't you have inexperience/knowledge in terms of as a Gambian national considering it is only recently Gambia become independence and built its own state for only a few decades ago.
Let me see: UK is a state for how many years? US became a 'american' nations state after how many years? How about China.
Anway, Gambia is lucky not to have people like you, considering you would support foreign forces to bring down the current regime. That is one of the fundamental reason why I don't put much value on people like you from diaspora. You are a liability to Gambia. Let me describe who you are.
You learn some new things there-big deal- and you think now you know a lot. You became very arrogant, further, now you are part of opposition, hoping if Jammeh is brought down by does not matter who, perhaps by France, you can get some position in the new government. For this, co-operating with the British government is normal, god bless queen. because you are doing this in the name of justice and human rights. Right? I will expose people like you. I know who you are. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 16 Apr 2011 13:37:11 |
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Senegambia
175 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 14:25:27
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No matter how long and how loud you whine, the crux of the matter is that Gbagbo lost the support of his people. He refused to act on the wishes of his own people in Ivory Coast, he refused to listen to his fellow africans, from Annan to Wade to Odinga to Mbeki and a whole host of respectable pan africans. He chose to listen to.....yaya jammeh. So the people had to forcefully eject him ouf of his bunker. Now I am sure that Gbagbo, his wife and their circle must have been very very convinced that Ouattara lost the elections but, my friend, how convinced could he be to see hundreds of his own flesh and blood shooting at one another in the streets and still refuse to act on what will be in the best interest of the country: simply step aside. You Turk and I would have been saved from the heartache of seeing a former colonial power actioning in Ivory Coast. You see? So the issue should not be santafara's support for the removal of gbagbo even with the involvement of former colonialist and what ever you think that implies; because he is on the right side. The issue must be how Gbagbo humiliated his country and africans for acting like a power hungry fool willing to sacrifice the bloods of innocent people just so he can be called president.
quote:
Originally posted by turk
You think you understood.......
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Tesito
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 15:15:52
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Senegambia
I will see if the history will prove how significant the point I made. I would never accept to co-operate with the enemy against my own. We will see whether Ivory Coast will pay the high price of getting help from the enemy/former colonial power/masters. The new regime most likely could turn out to be a 'puppet' regime. The leader is already have a western education, IMF man, have family ties to France. Like I said, the history will prove if my point is valid. The history already proved my point many times. It is not new, colonial power supported one side.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 16 Apr 2011 15:40:23 |
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Senegambia
175 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 15:47:34
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There have been many many instances where world powers in the pretext of helping poor people infact end up breaking them out of greed. I agree. I am also very wary of all these help from the so called "enemy". But there are times I recognize that there are people among ouselves, african people, who are many folds worst and more dangerous than the so called enemy. We are all western educated, mandela, gbagbo, wade, mbeki, mugabe etc. That is only good. Now that Ouattara is there, the responsibility of moving his country forward lies with him. The responsibility of ensuring their sovereignty and their independence was what he was sworn in to do. Until he fails to do all that he deserves a chance.
Turk you have to be flexible in dealing with others we dont consider our friends. The world today is different from the one yesterday. Nations no longer do have friends or enemies, but temporal allies. You know the kind of politics going on in NATO, EU, Arab League and so on. Does it feel or look good to see foreign powers operating militarily in Africa or the middle east? No! Are some of those actions necessary? Absolutely! Like I said, its now Ouattara's job to make sure his govt acts right. With coalition members like Soro, he is not free to do whatever.
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Tesito
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 16:27:36
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"Turk you have to be flexible in dealing with others we dont consider our friends. The world today is different from the one yesterday. Nations no longer do have friends or enemies, but temporal allies"
I think this is common sense and a sign of out times ,How say you turk ? |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 16 Apr 2011 16:27:58 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 17:14:03
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Senegambia
Look like you agree on some of my points.
Anyway, you are forgetting something in Ivory Coast and Gambian context. These leaders do have their own support. Look at the election results in Ivory Coast.
Laurent Gbagbo 51.45 % (CC) 45.9 % (IEC)
Alassane Ouattara 48.55 % (CC) 54.1 % (IEC)
The election result was questionable. Regardless of the result, let us assume that Outtara has won the election, but it is slim majority. Gbagbo had legitimate support. So is Jammeh in Gambia. I accept the fact that they are far from ideal democratic regime, however, with the help of former colonial power involving domestic politics, foreign interest groups are taking side with hidden agenda. The only factor here for this 'happy end' is France and foreign intervention. UN goes beyond its mandate taking side in this domestic issue. The people of Ivory Coast did not accomplish this end. They did not accomplish the democracy. We still have close to 50 percent support for the former regime. The only difference is the 'personalities' change with the help of the devil empire France. I mean there is no reason for cheers. There was no consensus of whole nation to let foreign interests to involve. Many did not want France involvement.
I have a question for you. What if China supported the Gbagbo? Would you have same perspective about 'being allies' to be acceptable?
I would prefer the natural course when history is being shaped. And one is talking about it was necessary to stop the blood. What is wrong with blood. Sometime it is necessary to spill blood and sacrifice. Remember Malcolm X, any means necessary quote. Remember French revolution, magna carta, american independence. I don't see any change other than the personalities in Ivory Coast. Based on what I know about Africa, what I know about history, what I observe about the people and society, I can only make predictions about this situation. The hand of colonial power; regime change; things happening in ivory coast looks very familiar to me. I have seen this movie before.
After WWI, the ottoman empire lost the war and the ottoman sultan was going to accept the British protection or american mandate to save the empire and regime. No one was going to get hurt. But Ataturk and people of former ottoman empire did not bow down to British, France, Italy and Ottoman Sultan, from teenagers to grandmothers fought against enemy. Lots of blood spilled, but that was the new beginning in less than 2 years, they established the republic, abolished monarchy and hilafet. The regime has been changed by the people with their own will and sacrifice. The blood spilled but without spilling blood one can't became a nation.
Another example was Arab-Turk war. Yes, Arabs get the independence from Ottoman empire with the help of British and Americans. Look at what is happening now in Arabia. They are in worse situation, they have monarch regimes, under unofficial occupation of western world.
The division of Ivory Coast is not ideological. It is regional. I am not sure if there is tribal/religious division, but looking at the map, it looks does not look like ideological. Correct me if I am wrong. Orange is Quttro and south is Gbagbo.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 16 Apr 2011 17:44:10 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 17:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
...... Nations no longer do have friends or enemies, but temporal allies.
I think this is common sense and a sign of out times ,How say you turk ?
I agree and disagree. If a nation as a whole, with the consensus having an allies of foreign nations, that may be acceptable. However, if nation is divided and only half of the nation has the allies of foreign nations, I see this as a betrayal.
That is why nations forbids foreign funding for political parties. Only the government that represent people can have ally for the nation's interests. In this example, nation is divided and only one side is supported. That is not acceptable to me. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 16 Apr 2011 17:25:30 |
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Senegambia
175 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 18:22:07
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I entirely agree with you that Ivory Coast is a divided nation. From your postings I understand that your main concern is the meddling of foreign powers in our business. A lot of us are concerned. Nothing is for free. France is not there just because they feel they have the moral responsibility to do so. The same would apply to Russia or China. Sad to say but it is also about interest but that issue will be more appropriate later when things normalize. This is why, again, we must be firmer in holding ourselves responsible for atrocities that are committed in our contries. I can keep pointing fingers on France, Britain and the USA for everything going wrong in our countries. But I decide to point my fingers on the corrupt and self made dictators/kings in our countries who keep inflicting misery on their own people with impunity.
I agree we should solve our problems our own way. But how about Gbagbo refusing to listen to his own african fellows. He could evade this conflict not on the basis of the wishes of france or US, but on the basis of what ECOWAS and AU literally begged him to do. Note that the election of Ouattara is not my main point. The point here is that Gbagbo failed to heed common sense and he plunged the country into irreparable damage. The writings were on the wall for him to make a better judgement but no. I wish there are discussions about the way Gbagbo was arrested as we see in the video clips posted in here. It is shameful, and disrespectful for everyone who voted for him. It was unnecessary to be taking pictures of him that way. I strongly disagree with Gbagbo and I hold him responsible for whats going on in Ivory Coast. But I condemn the way they treated him and his wife. It is nasty!Reports are having it that Gambia govt is rejecting Ouattaras govt. Another interesting development.
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Tesito
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Edited by - Senegambia on 16 Apr 2011 18:23:49 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 19:06:47
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quote:
But I decide to point my fingers on the corrupt and self made dictators/kings in our countries who keep inflicting misery on their own people with impunity.
Senegambia
While we have some consensus on foreign involvement and the treatment of Gbagbo and his wife, the above is something I disagree. Yes, you can blame politicians in some degree, but I disagree that leaders are that significant solving problems of Africa. OK, if we have a genius like Mandela, Ghandi something would be different. But unfortunately, these type of leaders come only once in a while and only a few nations are fortunate to have leaders like them. Pointing on the leaders, in general, is simplifying the issue. I point my finger on the social, economic, historical and political cultural realities of Africa. Not that I am blaming that people of Africa are guilty or they are at fault. Africans are no lesser than others to succeed. I mean people are not choosing the failure. But unfortunately, there are some realities on the ground making harder for people to make change, or to establish functioning states.
If there is no serious change in social, economic and political culture, Ouatro, Jammeh, Gaddafi, Mubarak, does not matter who ever are taken from the power, or take the power, nothing will change. Without social, educational, intellectual, economic improvement Africans can not accomplish better governing.
Regime changes, personalities changes will not make much difference which is only temporary change. Eventually, leader will became corrupted and state will fail no matter who is the leader. Fundamental reasons for statehood is not being accomplished in Africa -in my opinion- are:
- African states are not nation state which borders are drawn naturally like Europe for example. Tribes are always divider and reasons for political instability. Read bantaba. We all agree this is one of the fundamental issue. Europe did not have that. Far east did not have that. India, while there are many ethnic groups, they accompished the 'indian nations' while they have still some ethnic and religious division, but much less than Africa. At least India is united. Arabs have same language, same culture, same religion, so it is easier. Africa has so many divisions.
- Establishing a good governance require 'money'. Gambia is lacking wealth.
- Africa does not have the historical process of establishing nation. There were few independence wars, there were no renaissance type of enlightenment due to being under ruling of colonial power, there was no industrial revolution. They were colonies. They are lacking the historical events, process in transitioning of statehood. That is why I brought the lack of knowledge/experience of political process.
Yes, now they are independent and we can't always blame colonization, but it is a fact that during hundreds of years, Africa was left behind. Whether you like it or not, they are poorer, less educated, less intellectual as a society, less infrastructures, less wealthy.
- Lack of of educated/literate/intellectual population is the main obstacle for political participation. Political decision is not based on 'information', 'news', 'idealogy', 'economic decision', 'party programs'. It is mostly based on 'tribe', 'religion','region'.
Other nations had similar issues, but they made progress. Africans are no different from other nations. But there are priorities and sequence of the issues you try to resolve. It looks to me, some think they can accomplished better government with different leaders and without solving the obstacles I listed. To me, that is just wasting of time and energy.
I am contributing to this post, because I believe, the change in Ivory Coast is small. I believe, there is not much progress in terms of improvement of state. The only change is 'personalities' and change did not happen naturally with the demand of people. The change happened due to former colonial power. It looks like one step ahead, two steps back.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 16 Apr 2011 19:15:12 |
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 19:57:27
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I for one believe any war that starts as a result of disagreements over an election result should be resolved quickly, failure to resolve such wars lead to loss of life , serious economic hardship for the living etc. the incumbent leader owes it to his people to see after their welfare rather than his tenure of office, which to me is more selfish than patriotic. Excuse my simplicity but then in the case of honorable Gbagbo he was in power for at least ten years, prior to which he led his people to another war to a certain extent. Now that he is being seen off which he rejected to the point of another war I cannot see any excuse for the failure to unseat him even if it involves foreign forces as it where.Apologists for dictators would start debates about neo-colonial undertones which may or not be real , for me it is more a question of whether the incumbent should not have left office to avert the resultant war of attrition that ensued than that of whether he had a mandate even if that was a percentage of the electorate.I am sorry to differ in opinion with you Turk , for me you seem to be sitting in cloud Cuckoo-land out of touch with realities on the ground where the ordinary people desire to have freedoms and would take these from where ever or whatever source . If you or any one is not happy about the liberation of such people I suggest you go over to the said country and thrash it out with Oattara and his victorious fighters. This same message is for Yahya Jammeh who is bursting with fury at the turn of events.The long and short of this is that the era of impunity is fast getting buried and the sooner those dumb heads get this into their skulls the better for them and every one , peace |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 20:40:40
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Kaanibaa
I am ok with you to differ in opinion with me. I welcome the debate. However, you sound ridiculously funny when you state 'I am out of touch with realities' and 'ordinary people desire to have freedoms'. It is not about freedoms. It is about one tribe/group/region getting power from other. Nothing more than that. I think the reality is that you are making a regime change in Ivory Coast so big deal. You sound like ivory cost did something what Ghandi, Mandela, Mugaba version 1.0 did. Let me break the news for you. There is not much change other than power going from one group to other. The realities of Ivory coasts are still there. If ordinary people have ENOUGH desire to have freedom, there would not be need for colonial master's involvement. Obviously desire/motivation is not strong enough. Also may I point out that almost 50 percent of ivory coast people vote for Gbagbo. So the desire of freedom you are talking about is not really the reality. It is all about power change. Yesterday was Gbagbo, today Quottro, tomorrow who knows?
There are two basic requirements for who have desire to succeed. One is 'ready to die'. Other is 'collective intelligence'. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 16 Apr 2011 20:50:59 |
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toubab1020
12311 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 23:00:58
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Turk, whilst I understand what you have written,you have thrown a complication into the mix by surmising that a nation is split in half as in the case of Libya which is an unusual situation but relates to leadership that is BAD no doubt about that but with support from a noteable proportion of the population. I would say that in MOST cases if leadership is BAD then the people would welcome intervention.
I am not in a position to quote from people more learned in these matters.I just give my thoughts on what I percieve to be a clear cut matter.BAD IS NOT GOOD in ANYTHING.
quote:
Originally posted by turk
quote:
Originally posted by toubab1020
...... Nations no longer do have friends or enemies, but temporal allies.
I think this is common sense and a sign of out times ,How say you turk ?
I agree and disagree. If a nation as a whole, with the consensus having an allies of foreign nations, that may be acceptable. However, if nation is divided and only half of the nation has the allies of foreign nations, I see this as a betrayal.
That is why nations forbids foreign funding for political parties. Only the government that represent people can have ally for the nation's interests. In this example, nation is divided and only one side is supported. That is not acceptable to me.
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2011 : 00:16:21
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quote:
I would say that in MOST cases if leadership is BAD then the people would welcome intervention.
Touby, we have a problem, who decides when leadership is 'BAD'. Please enlighten me the criteria. I mean Saddam was hero when he was fighting with Iran and no intervention, but he is bad when he speak up against Israel and they invaded iraq to bring him down. Mubarak was not bad, and USA supported him, until they realize he is a goner? Osama Bin Ladin was hero when he was against Soviet Empire, then he became devil. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain kingdoms are great but Libya is bad. Who are "BAD" and what define "BAD"?
What is BAD? |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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