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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2010 : 19:37:58
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Mr.Baldeh
Your post has even convinced me more that the problem is more to do with the voters and the realities of Gambia. I have been saying this all alone, usually it is taken as I am looking down Gambians but Halifa basically saw what I have been saying all alone and it seems that you also confirmed that ‘most voters in the Gambia haven’t reach level of political consciousness. And there are reasons for it.
In Gambia, there are people (elite and small minority) who understand politics, for example Halifa and in bantaba here there are politicians who understand the politics. But democracy requires ordinary people (voters) more than politicians.
Supporting opposition (who is not going to win) would bring a nightmare, which is correct, that could happen even in western democracies too. The reason I have been saying Gambian realities, in western democracies there are checks and balances to prevent this nightmare or reduce this. I will give you example. My home town, near Istanbul, there are two kinds of elections, one for the Central government and one for the local government. Most voters may vote strategically for right wing (demographic of my town, secular, liberal, high income folks) for the central government, but they vote left wing without any fear for the local government. They do it because; local government has their own taxes, authority independent from the central government. Can you see how the ‘wealth’, ‘decentralization’ could have impact on voters decision. Gambia’s realities that are obstacles are too much to overcome to establish democracy. Can you see how lack of wealth and in this case centralized government would make difference in Gambia. Gambian has too many dependencies to Government due to lack of wealth and lack of de-centralized /horizontal government services. Gambian government power is vertical.
As you mentioned pocket voters, in Gambia still voters are vote for the ‘power’, they are more realistic than idealistic to vote for opposition. This is very difficult obstacle to overcome whether by Halifa or Mandela or Gandhi.
And you brought tribal, they are too motivated by the leader they identify themselves. These voters are not amazed by human rights, liberty or even economic reasons. They are mostly voting like they are supporting a football team.
Whether you understand the voters’ profile, there is very little to do for politicians to get the voters support. It does not matter to change the course, because it is not about leaders, it is about the voters and Gambian realities. So, to establish democracy, instead of focusing the personalities, Gambians need to be realistic and have long term vision and try to focus on development. As Gambia develop government system, in this case, the choice of system democracy will fit better to Gambian society.
So I found it wasting time to bash Jammeh because lack of democracy in Gambia is not about Jammeh or the opposition leader, it is due to its realities.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2010 : 20:10:48
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Turk,what a surprise,a very sensible and well put together post, I am impressed that you can get your mind to work in this way,I think that it is going to be an uphill struggle to "educate" voters in primary concepts of elections.I can envision no idea at all how this is going to be achieved in the medium term,as younger people take to the stage having had the benefit of schooling,albeit basic because MOST teachers in The Gambia are not paid their low saleries on time or are not well enough qualified to teach,these factors bring discontent into the profession which is not helpful. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 06 Aug 2010 20:12:19 |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 00:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
Mr.Baldeh
Your post has even convinced me more that the problem is more to do with the voters and the realities of Gambia. I have been saying this all alone, usually it is taken as I am looking down Gambians but Halifa basically saw what I have been saying all alone and it seems that you also confirmed that ‘most voters in the Gambia haven’t reach level of political consciousness. And there are reasons for it.
In Gambia, there are people (elite and small minority) who understand politics, for example Halifa and in bantaba here there are politicians who understand the politics. But democracy requires ordinary people (voters) more than politicians.
Supporting opposition (who is not going to win) would bring a nightmare, which is correct, that could happen even in western democracies too. The reason I have been saying Gambian realities, in western democracies there are checks and balances to prevent this nightmare or reduce this. I will give you example. My home town, near Istanbul, there are two kinds of elections, one for the Central government and one for the local government. Most voters may vote strategically for right wing (demographic of my town, secular, liberal, high income folks) for the central government, but they vote left wing without any fear for the local government. They do it because; local government has their own taxes, authority independent from the central government. Can you see how the ‘wealth’, ‘decentralization’ could have impact on voters decision. Gambia’s realities that are obstacles are too much to overcome to establish democracy. Can you see how lack of wealth and in this case centralized government would make difference in Gambia. Gambian has too many dependencies to Government due to lack of wealth and lack of de-centralized /horizontal government services. Gambian government power is vertical.
As you mentioned pocket voters, in Gambia still voters are vote for the ‘power’, they are more realistic than idealistic to vote for opposition. This is very difficult obstacle to overcome whether by Halifa or Mandela or Gandhi.
And you brought tribal, they are too motivated by the leader they identify themselves. These voters are not amazed by human rights, liberty or even economic reasons. They are mostly voting like they are supporting a football team.
Whether you understand the voters’ profile, there is very little to do for politicians to get the voters support. It does not matter to change the course, because it is not about leaders, it is about the voters and Gambian realities. So, to establish democracy, instead of focusing the personalities, Gambians need to be realistic and have long term vision and try to focus on development. As Gambia develop government system, in this case, the choice of system democracy will fit better to Gambian society.
So I found it wasting time to bash Jammeh because lack of democracy in Gambia is not about Jammeh or the opposition leader, it is due to its realities.
Turk, your response is well articulated and hit on the nerves of the problem in the Gambia.
However, I think you have narrowly missed the fundamental cure or long term solution to the problem of political conciousness and voter maturity.
Let's agree for the purpose of this discussion that the problem is mainly the voters' lack of civic education... who would you say is responsible for bringing civic education to the masses?
Well, I strongly believe that everything starts with the leadership of the country. It is government's sole responsibility to fomulate policies that will create an environment where civil society groups are encouraged and allowed to educate voters if the government is not going to take the responsibility.
This is why many of us here are strongly opposed to Jammeh's policies. We believe that he doesn't understand the essence and long term benefits of a free and democratic society.
He continues to rule with decrees and under the disguise of Democracy. Democracy is not about elections, else Saddam Hussain would have been branded Democratic because he used to get 99% of the votes in Iraq.
So in essence, the ordinary voters cannot get themselves out of this predicament. There has to be government policies and or an educational system that will educate its citizens of their fundamental rights and civic duties. Off course this would mean he would no longer be able to take advantage of the people... thus one of the main reasons why even President Jawara kept the Gambian population at bay on civic education. Thus the reason he was able to stay in power for 30 years.
In fact, I further believe that this fundamental rights and civic responsibilities are even lacking in the civil service. The institutions that nurtures democracy are missing. Many civil servants sees government as someone's tool. They try to grab as much as possible at the expense of the masses thus the rampant corruption in every corner of government.
This is where the role of the leader(s) become pertinent. The President should demonstrate to the rest of the citizens that everybody is responsible for the advancement of the country. That he should NOT say do as I say BUT not as I do...
I will give credit to Halifa and the rest of the PDOIS folks because that is the kind of leadership they try to show even outside of office. They try to live below their means, act humble and not aspire to accumulate as much wealth or social class as the elites. All those folks in that group are well educated and they could have been looking for greener pastures as many did, but they decided to stay the course well pass their mid age.
Having said that, I think they need to understand that they are dealing with a society that gives more weight to class and wealth than collective prosperity.. it is going to take a long time and different kind of leadership to change that.
Therefore, the very reason why some of us are calling for them to put aside some of their rigid principles, form a coalition, change the governing structure of the country and create a society that is independent and mature... Until they are in a position where they can influence governing policies, there is nothing they can do to change the mindset and policies of the country...
This is why I think they are partly responsible for the continuous setbacks in our democracy... They should be part of something bigger than themselves and that is what we are calling for!!!! |
Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
Edited by - dbaldeh on 07 Aug 2010 00:16:17 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 00:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by dbaldeh
We are still crying over spilled milk. The fundamental question is what are these political parties doing to increase their chances of winning?
What is the way forward out of this predicament? What do we get from repeating the same painful down fall of NADD, UDP, PDOIS, NDAM, NRP etc?
As far as I am concern, I did not see anything different being done to get the opposition out of their sorry situation..
I advice that we should probably allow these present opposition leaders to contest the next elections anyway they wish... in fragments most likely.. then we can all revisit this and see the next phrase.
I humbly believe that the present opposition leadership must run its natural course and the end date is post 2011 elections.
Hopefully, a new more dynamic leadership and party platforms will emerge. The present parties have hit their life cycle and I only wish that they leave on a high note!!!
Thanks, dbaldeh,
you did smash the nail on the head there.
The obsession with “opposition unity” as the only way out is in itself a sign of weakness.
Banjulians, have no course to fight. The “villagers” do the fighting and at the end of the day they would support any government in power.
Whose duty is it to mobilize, sensitize and motivate the voters?
Don’t be carried away by turk’s mishmash that: “The failure of opposition is more to do with the voters than the leadership.”
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 00:32:04
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quote:
Whose duty is it to mobilize, sensitize and motivate the voters?
Don’t be carried away by turk’s mishmash that: “The failure of opposition is more to do with the voters than the leadership.”
Normally the political parties/leaders however, since the "Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices", that does not happened in Gambia. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 00:59:06
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| This is very interesting people talking sense about things, instead of spouting irrelevant words,sorry I won't interefere here ,all go to it work on a consentual programme,so that The Gambia can develop,its very complex. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 07 Aug 2010 01:01:44 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 02:56:24
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In my opinion, fundamental cure and long term solution have been what I have been saying for a long time and I will say it again: Improvement of wealth, human development (Check the HDI for Gambia which is within last 30 in the world), education etc. This topic, I particularly focused on wealth and horizontal government hierarchy.
I agree about civic education. And who is responsible for it. Of course government, but considering Gambian has the one of the lowest GDP per capita, where is the money for civic education? Gambian government can’t even provide basic education and literacy level is about 50 % and I would rate much lower than that when I rate in terms of quality rather than quantity of the literacy rate. I have relatives in Gambia. This girl who is going to high school can’t even write proper essay together, has no clue about government, civic duty…. There are a few good educational institutions in Gambia and students are above universal standard (High school) but most students are getting the education much below world standards. Look at the Gambian budget
http://allafrica.com/stories/200912211420.html
which is 5.474 Billion Dalasi it is about 150 Million Euro. This money is for town budget is Europe. That means government has to spend 100 Euro per a Gambian citizen per year. 8 euro per month and 2 euro per week.(1.5 Million population) That would include debt payments, health services, education investment, teachers salary, security, investment in economy.
Leadership helps but without money you can’t do much. The government does not have resources to do that. Not even civic education; there is no proper literacy education in Gambia. In order to established proper government system, the leaders alone not well enough.
Free and democratic society is not going to generate wealth and socio economic development; it is socio-economic development and wealth causes the free and democratic society.
It took 500 years, one renaissance, and enlightenment, one industrial revolution, creating capitalist class for Europe to establish democratic and free society. It took 80 years for Turkey, still struggling. Gambia did not pay its due to become free and democratic society. There is no socio-economic accomplishment yet. Look at Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Thailand.
To be honest I don’t put so much value on democracy. I guess that is my fundamental differences from you and many others in this board. In the long term, it would be nice to establish a western democracy, but I think for now Gambia should consider other models from third world countries. Cuba, Singapore, Malaysia, Turkey, Korea are much better model for Gambia than western democracies.
I agree with your evaluation of civil services and civic responsibilities but to improve this it takes wealth more than leadership. Even though you teach a police officer about his civic duty, with the 3000 dalasi, he will ask for bribe. How can a teacher to be idealist about civic education while he is struggling for bag of rice. Leadership help but it takes much more than that to establish a better system in Gambia.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 07 Aug 2010 02:58:35 |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 03:28:14
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Turk, we are in agreement in several key areas but our approach or recognition of the reality of the Gambian situation is where our disagreements are:
You keep talking about building wealth and somewhat dismissing Democracy as a means or system which can enable such a process...
First government does not build wealth, they create an environment and fomulate polices which allows citizens to be innovative and entreprenuerial.
I must tell you incase you did not know that Gambia has plenty of wealth that remains untapped. It has a dynamic and some of the smartest young enterprenuers who florish in the West and occupy key strategic positions that helps create wealth in the West.. Gambians can excel in almost any situation you put them despite our late exposure, lower level educational standards and the general size of our country.
What do I mean Gambia has pently wealth that remains untapped... First of all let's look at some factors that destroys wealth over night - natural disasters... this is almost non existence in the Gambia and the subregion. No earth quakes, no hurricanes or unavoidable floods, landslides, ethnic clinching etc just to name a few...You can argue that outbreak of diseases is an occurence but that because of a lack of decent healthcare system and even that there is pretty much no epidemics that cannot be controlled.
So that means you can actually build wealth without fear of it being wiped out overnight due to natural disasters...
Turk, Gambia has a population of a little over 1.5 million inhabitants according to the last census. That is the population of a single city in some countries..
Gambia has plenty of fresh water that can be used all year round for agricultural purposes that can produce enough rice to feed the population. If put into good use this can provide not only revenue generation but also food supplies for 3/4 of the population in the countryside..
Gambia has plenty of ariable land where almost any tropical plan or vegetable you plant can grow and be harvested within 3 - 4 months. Groundnuts aka peanuts as you may call it used to be and still remains our cash crop. One or two regions in the Gambia if put into good use can literally provide enough groundnut to produce oil, soap, hay for animals etc. This can employ a large chung of the population...
In fact factories can be built to produce groundnut oil which can be sold in local markets and even be exported to neighboring countries...
Guess what, in addition to groundnuts, there are several other cash groups like corn, millets, cassava, potatoes, coscoos and cotton that can all be cultivated within a span of 4-5 months to produce plenty of food for the population.
Turk, I have not talked about the fishing industry. Do you know that international fishing boats from Protugal, Spain, and several other countries illegally fish in our waters daily and literally catches millions of fish away from our waters? Do you know how much fine is levied against such ship when they are caught fishing in our waters without a permit? Millions of dalasis and I have been an eye witness to at least 3 boats caught in the waters one early morning and the marines were called to escort them offshore. If these boat owners are willing to pay millions of dalasis to get away how much do you think they get from the fish they catch in the Gambian waters?
How much employment would 50- or 100 of these boats provide to Gambian citizens if they are given the opportunity to own and operate such boats? What about all the fishing factories that can process fish into so many different foods...
Livestock can be reared anywhere in the Gambia and they will literally multiply in thousands. How much milk, meat, geese/butter, cheese, cow dunk for farming, not to talk about the skin which can be exported too...
Turk, the service sector Banking, insurance, telecommunication, transportation, the seaport etc etc are areas that can boost the Gambian economy that will provide enough employment to build the very wealth you are talking about.
In essence and in the interest of time, I just want to add that Gambia does not need 50 years to overcome these barriers. What we need is a leadership that has the vision and the will to create the environment that will once again put Gambia back to its name of being the smiling coast of Africa.
The point is the wealth, the resources, the man power and the will is there. It is a matter of tapping into it and turning Gambia into a mini industralized country in its own fashion... Democracy and freedom to innovate is what enables citizens explore their fullest potentials...
To be continue: education and health and tourism to follow...
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
Edited by - dbaldeh on 07 Aug 2010 04:46:55 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 03:39:45
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Baldeh
Some article about the concepts we are debating.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization
http://www.fiuc.org/iaup/esap/publications/umu/detecgrowth.php
Let me know what you think about this.
p.s. they are not my opinion, just a reference and discussion points.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 07 Aug 2010 04:27:58 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 04:58:45
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| This rosier picture is nice to dream, but how will you do that? Give me a few example countries as model. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 10:30:21
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quote:
Originally posted by turk
This rosier picture is nice to dream, but how will you do that? Give me a few example countries as model.
Turk, excellent reading on the links you provided pertaining to our topic of dicussion.
I found Dr. Peter John Opio, Dean of Business Administration and Management- Uganda Martyrs University more convincing and a clear presentation of some of the major problems confronting Africa.
His presentation partly quoted below butressed on my points that freedom and democracy is a pre requisite for an independent society. his quote below touches on my key argument that the drive for economic prosperity and mature political civic society has to be engineered and led by government.
From capital accumulation to capability enhancing policies: the indispensable role of freedom
"Economic development in Africa cannot be built and sustained on models of economic growth, which places self-interest and profit maximization over and above all other values, including the concern for the vulnerable. Economic development in Africa ought to be built on values of caring, so as to narrow the highly unjust and unacceptable gap between the very few rich and the majority, that live in insecure sub-human conditions. This requires that African governments give priority to policies and programs, which promote the common good and enhance the capabilities of their citizens"[/i].
It is mainly because of this argument that I respectfully decline to give you any model that can be mirroed towards an economic model for the Gambia and other countries like it.
I think every country has its unique situation and universal economic policies may not be application to that society simply because of other factors like education etc.
This is the deadly trap that many African governments find themselves accepting IMF and World Bank Economic Recovery Programs without due consideration to domestic and local competencies and other factors. Therefore, these countries as Dr. Peters said simply adapt these policies for credit worthiness instead of genuine economic and monetary policies that suits the reality on the ground.
Dr. Peter John opio also concluded that:
"The challenge of attaining sustained economic development in Africa includes both the removal of constraints and the setting of people sensitive policies. Developing and strengthening a democratic system is an essential component of the process of development. It calls for partnership and collaboration between donor agencies, national governments, church institutions and local communities. Above all, African development must be built on values, which are at once social, economic, moral and religious. True development must promote capabilities to achieve the desired functionings, as Sen underscores".
This concluding paragraph from Dr. John Opio also validates my argument that human development oriented policies and social conscious policies to uplift the moral and civic education of the citizry is essential.
Turk, I know am going to get in trouble for saying this, but this is where I give tombs up for PDOIS for having a unique platform that advocates a kind of socialist democracy that is almost non existence anywhere in the world. It can be argued that some countries in Europe like Sweden, Demmark and a few others practice this form of Democracy where the government is heavily invested in social policies and at the same times maintains a free market economy and democratic values.
In other words, PDOIS led by Halifa and Sedia has long established that Gambia's economic and governing policies has to be realistic and practical to accomodate the social status of the populace. In essence a socialist democracy where government heavily invests in the social welbeing of the society and at the same times encourage democratic participation and free market ingenuity. This is a model that I strongly believe will work for a society that needs so much uplifting and leadership from government...
Great discussion Turk, I love it and it is very educative. Keep them coming....
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2010 : 17:37:55
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there is potential the question is how you turn the potential to reality. It is nice to hear these kind of positive visions in terms of development. I am kind of tired of Jammeh bashing and liberty, human rights. thanks.
Looks like Lebanese businessman are very successful in turning potential to the reality. As the development progress, thing will get better in Gambia. That must be the first priority.
I did not heard comments about my 'democratization link'. There are obstacles for progressing to democracy listed. Are you agree on that list or not?
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 07 Aug 2010 17:42:43 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 00:02:50
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" … This requires that African governments give priority to policies and programs, which promote the common good and enhance the capabilities of their citizens"…
…Above all, African development must be built on values, which are at once social, economic, moral and religious. True development must promote capabilities to achieve the desired functionings, as Sen underscores"…
dbaldeh, thanks
The quote above is a very interesting perspective and a valid analogy, in my opinion.I did advice you to be mindful of frying fish given to you by turk in the night, you might fry a frog.
The only thing that can get you in trouble here is your attempt to justify your position by using our learned Brother’s analogy. Let me explain.
There is a difference between “social policies” resulting from a genuine study of the social realities and needs and policies resulting from a political ideology, “Socialism”.
Social policies derived from understanding the social realities usually involve the people in the policymaking process. Hence, policies derived from social knowledge and directed to solve social problems would be based on everyday reality.Whiles, policies derived from a political ideology, ex. “Socialism”, are idealistic and utopist therefore exclude people from the policymaking process; the “big brother” attitude or “I-know-what-is-good-for-you- mentality.
To be able to effectively address the needs of African societies; social policies should be consequent with everyday reality and not utopist ideas (Socialism). .
The key is a broad representation that is inclusive. |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 00:24:08
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Above quote is actually supporting what I have been saying overall. Thanks.
quote:
in my opinion.I did advice you to be mindful of frying fish given to you by turk in the night, you might fry a frog.
Oh yeah. Blame the turk. Turkish man's burden in bantaba.
I am supporting the idea of social policies derived from the genuine study of social and economic realities in Gambia case. Based on the Gambian values.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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dbaldeh
USA
934 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 03:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Janko
" … This requires that African governments give priority to policies and programs, which promote the common good and enhance the capabilities of their citizens"…
…Above all, African development must be built on values, which are at once social, economic, moral and religious. True development must promote capabilities to achieve the desired functionings, as Sen underscores"…
dbaldeh, thanks
The quote above is a very interesting perspective and a valid analogy, in my opinion.I did advice you to be mindful of frying fish given to you by turk in the night, you might fry a frog.
The only thing that can get you in trouble here is your attempt to justify your position by using our learned Brother’s analogy. Let me explain.
There is a difference between “social policies” resulting from a genuine study of the social realities and needs and policies resulting from a political ideology, “Socialism”.
Social policies derived from understanding the social realities usually involve the people in the policymaking process. Hence, policies derived from social knowledge and directed to solve social problems would be based on everyday reality.Whiles, policies derived from a political ideology, ex. “Socialism”, are idealistic and utopist therefore exclude people from the policymaking process; the “big brother” attitude or “I-know-what-is-good-for-you- mentality.
To be able to effectively address the needs of African societies; social policies should be consequent with everyday reality and not utopist ideas (Socialism). .
The key is a broad representation that is inclusive.
Uncle Janko your advice is well taken but I don't think we are too apart with what our learned friend Turk is also advocating... I think he may misunderstood our position because we are not advocating for the application of Western Democratic values and or economic theories.
Democratic principles are not entirely new to our society. These have long been practiced within our local communities, our religious establishment etc. So we don't have to apply what we have seen in the West but we can create our own models that suits our societies.
This is mainly why I did not give a lot of weight on the Democratic theories outlined through the link he sent. A lot of them seems universal academic theoris rather than applicable to each individual society.
So Turk sorry I did not elaborate on the link or make reference to it but I acknowledge the valuable information provided.
"The only thing that can get you in trouble here is your attempt to justify your position by using our learned Brother’s analogy. Let me explain.
There is a difference between “social policies” resulting from a genuine study of the social realities and needs and policies resulting from a political ideology, “Socialism”".
On another point, I think the quote above; will not get me in trouble as I clearly defferentiate between socialist policies and socialism. The reason why I gave Sweden and Denmark as examples of a balance between socialist policies and a free democratic society is because that is the kind of socially oriented policies which involves the people that I was referring to.
I did not make reference to Russia, Libya or Cuba because those countries clearly has or had in the case of Russia Socialism which has largely failed.
I also mentioned that the kind of socialist policies PDOIS folks advocates is pretty much nonexistence anywhere but they are policies that can work in our society, one that involves the full participation of the people in determining their manner of government and how local policies can be implemented..
I also want to mention that sometimes the idea of the big brother, know it all can also work if you have the right people with the right vision.
A clear example is the time when countries like the United States were being turned into industralize nations and during the massive infrastructure developments. The United States was virtually closed for 10 years while roads, bridges, tunnels, major highways, rail roads etc etc were being built. It was both the local and federal goverments that were involved in the construction of those infrastuctures.. So the role of big brother is crucial and I do not think we shouldn't dismiss it outrightly. It has worked in other nations like China etc..
I also think a true government of the people, by the people and for the people in fact involves the people, look out and protects their rights to liberty and ownership of personal property. I don't mind a big brother who respects these principle even if they act as if they know it all... after all government is not some kind of creature but an institution made up of the people...
Thanks
Demba
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Baldeh,
"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi
Visit http://www.gainako.com for your daily news and politics |
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| Bantaba in Cyberspace |
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