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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 18:26:45
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I don't want to be drawn into deep discussions about something I do not know about,and have no wish to learn about ,in order that I can discuss with authority I am perfectly content for people to worship whoever they like,in whatever way they like,provided that way does not hurt anyone , your veiw I think is that Islam is the only religion and as such anyone who fails to follow the beliefs that you follow is not worthy to be on this earth.
"Using the Quran as a basis for turning children into slaves and beggars has no basis is Islam. Rather it is indeed such dispicable behaviour that islam comes to change." Well said.
"Fast forward to today. The Almudu marabouts in question today do not want to farm or work a day in life. They will rather enslave children than live on their own sweat or efforts. In short they have turned such a solemn and sacred endeavour into a sophisticated scheme bent on enriching themselves at the expense of others. So blame them for their greed, but do not conclude that it is a problem that islam created. It is not." Again Well said.
"If you truely want to prosecute islam, do so on the evidence it came with and lets see if you get anywhere. Using muslims to to debunk islam ain't gonna take you anywhere. In fact, I challenge you to continue try that method and see if you get anywhere."
I certainly don't want to prosecute islam,why ? I have expressed my feelings above
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 19:17:56
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It is totally fine if you have no wish to learn, study or care about islam. Your absolute right and choice. At the same time, if you keep on trying to play the role of "innocent moderator" in topics you claim to have no interesting or care about it exposes your true intentions.
To reiterate, I am totally fine with what ever people choose to believe in and that includes you. For some reason, you seem to have a problem with stuff you claim to have no interest in. What I will not stand by and watch is people peddling lies and false statements against islam just because they dont believe in it. This is exactly what Tamsier has been engaging in and you are becoming his enabler. LIVE AND LET LIVE. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 21:03:56
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| What you say is very good,I accept that,what you do not appear to accept is that people should not be browbeaten by those who hold views with which they have a problem,when this happens on bantaba it concerns me as I don't like to see people verbally abusing each other with violent words,I am not a moderator here Momodou is,but I see no harm at all in making a posting showing moderate views of a topic under discussion,you will think I suspect ,that if I know nothing about a topic then why am I posting ? answer is that topics here are for discussion only and in a discussion differing views have a place.I hope that this has clarified my position. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 08 Jul 2010 21:04:46 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 08:34:56
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Brillaint Mansa. From the past month a gun man killed 12 people in England, and regularly we have folks committing horrendious crimes against innocent people, countless numbers of raes and what have you. and today we are looking for another gun man terrorising a whole community, the vast police resources wasted for one man.
Dowe have to generalise that, British men can be physcos when love goes bad? How many occassion we have to generalise indiviudal crimes? What is is pushing folks to commit horrible crimes? Is it religion or personal issues?
The truth is clear, yet clear cut individuals failings are catelogued and branded as a collective crimes. This is funy to say the least. When John kills someone, we don't try Andy for his crimes, do we?
Why try to make Muslims appologise for things they largerly have no part in? Toubab1020's playing innocent is baffling. We have lived in the west for long. we know the culture, the jokes, the comedy, the intrinsic relationships and many more dynamics just like some of you know us and our baggages. we have inter-marry and share children, love etc. Let us respect each other a little. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 08:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
I like many other people here studied how to read the Quran from other people besides our parents. My oustas's name (may Allah have mercy on him) is Sellu Jallow. He was a firewood seller from Guinea who never charged a single butut, nor sent anyone on the streets to beg. He sold his firewood and fed his family till the day he died. It is because of examples of such unmeasured selflessness that I have an enormous amount of respect for the Fulas. In my case, Sellu lived in my neighbourhood so all I had to do was show up three times a day and learn how to read the quran free of charge. May Allah reward him abundantly
The Almudu problem today however started in totally different circumstances. The original almudus worked together with their masters or members of the master's original family members fully in tow on their masters farms as a way of paying for their way towards getting their education. This is subsistence farming going on here not any form of commercial farming. The proceeds of these farms are used to feed and clothe the family in which the almudu now fully belonged in. Such an arrangement was feasible to all parties because of the level of poverty in those days. There was nothing like monetary tuition in those days.
I didn't pay tuition for 'Dara' either. It was all free, well largely. It was like one day in a month or two when all of us the students would go help the Oustass in whatever work he was doing at the time. It was not only us; all his family-wives and kids would be around helping too. So it wasn't backbreaking or degrading work either. But he didn't have to lodge or feed us, we return to our parents everyday after classes.
But by the time I entered high school, my interest in religion was on a free fall. I did drop religious studies in high school, partly because I thought I already knew what was being taught and partly because I was losing interest.
So I cannot share belief in Tamsier's 'Serere Animism'. I think it is outdated, and has no substance in either science or reality. But that is just my opinion.
There are still some respected Gambian scholars, in the SIC, who accept children from across the country into a boarding establishment in very struggling circumstances where food, love, hygiene, and sanitation remain in short supply. I have a friend who could not resist snatching his younger brother away from one of these schools far away in the Kombos against the will of his parents. Another friend's mother cries all day whenever she visits her son in one of these faraway places, but could not bring the little boy home for fear of the wrath of her husband.
My concern is that we must not try to brush these problem under the carpet by arguing that it is "regional" or that it is "Tam and Touby"'s crusade (the 'Terrible Two'), or that the practice is separate from Islam and Muslims. As long as these parctice operates under the facade of islamic studies and by people who present themselves in society as Muslims and Muslim scholars (whether they are many or not, and whether they are from Guinea or elsewhere),the problem will continue to haunt muslims in the Gambia. Gambian Christians do not have this problem as such, but I am aware that child homelessness and "street children" are a problem in other countries too especially in Latin America. The fact that (the acclaimed sociologist and the Gambia's foremost intellectual), Halifa Sallah's experience has corroborated this story requires us to focus on solutions rather than bickering.
Any solutions? |
Edited by - kayjatta on 09 Jul 2010 08:54:36 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 09:26:33
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I think kayjatta right. There is a need for a solution. This is when secularism and social services come in. While respect the families' religious education preferences for their pupils and the religious freedom of expression as part of liberal secularism, government must have regulations and standards to protect children from these abuses. Government should not involve in the content of religious education but it can regulate the standards on how the religious education, activities are delivered especially when it comes to the children. If the government has a standard of teaching i.e. science, the teacher must be qualified, for example a degree is required. Religious education must have similar standards too. Boarding schools have different problems in under Catholic religious education even in developed and wealthy countries where high quality social services exist. There were hundreds of victims by Catholic schools in the world today.
When Islam institutionalized, it became vulnerable because it is no longer divine thing, it became power, money and interest. So this issue is not particularly about 'Islam'. It has social, political and economical dimension. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 11:44:50
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Thanks,well written. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 11:50:24
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Kay,you write;
"My concern is that we must not try to brush these problem under the carpet by arguing that it is "regional" or that it is "Tam and Touby"'s crusade (the 'Terrible Two'), or that the practice is separate from Islam and Muslims."
I agree (only if anybody really wants to know my opinion though) except for the words "Tam and Touby"'s crusade (the 'Terrible Two')"  Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
[quote]Originally posted by mansasulu
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 14:22:29
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Kay,
I agree with most of your points but disagree with the aspect on `Serere Religion´
“…So I cannot share belief in Tamsier's 'Serere Animism'. I think it is outdated, and has no substance in either science or reality. But that is just my opinion….”
Referring to the “Serere religion” as animism clearly shows your position, but that it lacks substance in both science and reality is not only bold but also imaginary. Tamsier’s post on the said religion is a clear indication that it is real and serves a purpose for the practitioner, here and now.
The scientific relevance - below is an example of how such a belief (Dogon cosmology) has and is contributing to science.
Griaule and Dieterlen were puzzled by this Sudanese star system, and prefaced their analysis with the following remark:-
The problem of knowing how, with no instruments at their disposal, men could know the movements and certain characteristics of virtually invisible stars has not been settled, nor even posed.[23]…”
Griaule and Dieterlen describe a world renovation ceremony, associated with the bright star Sirius (sigu tolo, "star of Sigui"), called sigui, held by the Dogon every sixty years. According to Griaule and Dieterlen the Dogon also name a companion star, po tolo "Digitaria star" (Sirius B) and describe its density and rotational characteristics. Griaule did not attempt to explain how the Dogon could know this about a star that cannot be seen without telescopes, and he made no claims about the antiquity of this information or of a connection with ancient Egypt.*... |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 15:30:32
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| I agree with Kayjatta, this issue can't be ignored, but at the same time we have to recognize that the issue is little bid different than it was portrayed initially. The crusade on Islam has hidden agenda to bring up on this issue. The original author does not bring this issue as a social problem, the hidden agenda is to discredit Islam as Mansa explained very well. This issue is social problem and political problem rather than religious problem. It is more related to the government policies than the religion. There is a lack of authority/policy/social services by government that is why this is happening. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 15:37:17
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Kay, in your friend's case did they have to pay tuition for the kids to attend the quranic school? Just curious... I am not in any way disputing the problems you highlighted in the lack of "food, love, hygiene, and sanitation." This may well be the case. However to present the case as "...a side of islam in our region no one wants to discuss..." as Tamsier is claiming is disingenious. We should talk about these problems for what they really are.
These are societal problems not islamic problems. I think it is very important we distinguish between the two. Just to give you an example, I spent numerous rainy seasons in the Kiang around the areas straddling the Gambia, Senegal boarder. To this day I still have relatives there. In those days, proper food, hygiene and sanitation were lacking. We spent herding cows and sheep on an empty stomach all day. All they had were not even pit laterines but holes in the ground. Today, they are better off in so much so that they have flush commodes and don't engage in farming anymore. I was not even a teenager then but I enjoyed it. Today I credit that experience for beinga valuable character building tool for me.
quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
quote:
Originally posted by mansasulu
I like many other people here studied how to read the Quran from other people besides our parents. My oustas's name (may Allah have mercy on him) is Sellu Jallow. He was a firewood seller from Guinea who never charged a single butut, nor sent anyone on the streets to beg. He sold his firewood and fed his family till the day he died. It is because of examples of such unmeasured selflessness that I have an enormous amount of respect for the Fulas. In my case, Sellu lived in my neighbourhood so all I had to do was show up three times a day and learn how to read the quran free of charge. May Allah reward him abundantly
The Almudu problem today however started in totally different circumstances. The original almudus worked together with their masters or members of the master's original family members fully in tow on their masters farms as a way of paying for their way towards getting their education. This is subsistence farming going on here not any form of commercial farming. The proceeds of these farms are used to feed and clothe the family in which the almudu now fully belonged in. Such an arrangement was feasible to all parties because of the level of poverty in those days. There was nothing like monetary tuition in those days.
I didn't pay tuition for 'Dara' either. It was all free, well largely. It was like one day in a month or two when all of us the students would go help the Oustass in whatever work he was doing at the time. It was not only us; all his family-wives and kids would be around helping too. So it wasn't backbreaking or degrading work either. But he didn't have to lodge or feed us, we return to our parents everyday after classes.
But by the time I entered high school, my interest in religion was on a free fall. I did drop religious studies in high school, partly because I thought I already knew what was being taught and partly because I was losing interest.
So I cannot share belief in Tamsier's 'Serere Animism'. I think it is outdated, and has no substance in either science or reality. But that is just my opinion.
There are still some respected Gambian scholars, in the SIC, who accept children from across the country into a boarding establishment in very struggling circumstances where food, love, hygiene, and sanitation remain in short supply. I have a friend who could not resist snatching his younger brother away from one of these schools far away in the Kombos against the will of his parents. Another friend's mother cries all day whenever she visits her son in one of these faraway places, but could not bring the little boy home for fear of the wrath of her husband.
My concern is that we must not try to brush these problem under the carpet by arguing that it is "regional" or that it is "Tam and Touby"'s crusade (the 'Terrible Two'), or that the practice is separate from Islam and Muslims. As long as these parctice operates under the facade of islamic studies and by people who present themselves in society as Muslims and Muslim scholars (whether they are many or not, and whether they are from Guinea or elsewhere),the problem will continue to haunt muslims in the Gambia. Gambian Christians do not have this problem as such, but I am aware that child homelessness and "street children" are a problem in other countries too especially in Latin America. The fact that (the acclaimed sociologist and the Gambia's foremost intellectual), Halifa Sallah's experience has corroborated this story requires us to focus on solutions rather than bickering.
Any solutions?
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"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 16:25:38
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It reminds me of the saying of the egg and the hen, the difference is, in this case we can certainly determine which came first.
It is as much a social problem as it is religious, hence the category would not exist if it where not for religion. That does not make it a religious dictate but an individual responsibility, grown under a long period of time.
The question is where do we draw the line between social and religion?
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Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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toubab1020
12306 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 16:42:22
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Lets get real here,I don't think anything is being resolved about what we all percieve as a "problem" ,it is imaterial if that problem is percieved to be religious or social,why cannot discussion take place along problem solving lines instead of percieved critisms about what is or what might be.?
Men taking young boys away from their homes for whatever reason and illtreating them so the family connection and origins are no longer present in their memory because when they were removed for whatver reason and abused that is evil and must be condemmed,that is making that child a non person,someone who has no idea who he is or where he is from when he reaches manhood. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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Edited by - toubab1020 on 09 Jul 2010 16:46:01 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 16:48:02
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It is social issue that has many dimensions (economic, cultural, political) and one of them is 'followers of a religion'.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 16:51:40
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| For solution. The issue requires social services i.e. education (including religious education of members of a religion), welfare and regulation/legislation. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 09 Jul 2010 16:53:50 |
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