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andersbranderud
Sweden
1 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 22:43:30
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I hope you will find this text interesting.
According to science our universe (space-time) has a beginning (Read page 660 – 661 in the book “The future of theoretical physics and cosmology: celebrating Stephen Hawking”. The specific section is written by the cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of the Tufts university.)
It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause. Since space-time has a beginning there was a first physical occurrence. Causality requires that the first physical occurrence had a cause. Causality and the fact that space-time has a beginning implies that this Prime Cause is non-dimensional and independent of space-time.
To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)
Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.
It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah, see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Some of the text is a quote from www.netzarim.co.il)
The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.
The most common counter arguments are answered here: http://bloganders.blogspot.com/search/label/counter%20arguments)
Anders Branderud
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 23:05:46
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"I hope you will find this text interesting"writes andersbranderud , Errrrrr.....Yes very,only one problem though,I couldn't understand any of it,sorry its far too deep for the ordinary fellow.
I think to even understand just a LITTLE of what you want to discuss you would have had to study theology for 10 years at least.There are quite a few Muslim Scholars on this Bantaba in Cyberspace who would be pleased to join in and discuss these deep matters with you.I unfortunatly am not educated to the schlor level. |
"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 01:59:03
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Why shifting attention; assigning responsibilities or challenge to Muslims as stated; "There are quite a few Muslim scholars on this Bantaba in Cyberspace who would be pleased to join in and discuss these deep matters with you."
What is forwarded is a general theology theory on "Proof of the existence of an Intelligent Creator" that may sound logical or contradictory However Muslims understands "LAA ILLAHA ILLAL LAA!" {THERE IS NO GOD EXCEPT ALLAH} AND THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO SUBMIT THE WILL OF ALLAH.Attributes of ALLAH denotes "MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND CREATOR" and would appreciate to point out any contradictions of the Muslim belief from this article!
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toubab1020
12312 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:30:59
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Very simple as I know nothing about religion and there are people on Bantaba who do,that's their way of life and they are very knowledgeable about that, so why shouldn't they take advantage to discuss deep matters that I know nothing about?
If you noticed this is the first time that this person has posted,and presumably wants to discuss things,and give his views,who have I "assigned responsibility" to,no one,who has challanged Muslims? me, I don't think so. "Shift attention" shift from what?
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"Simple is good" & I strongly dislike politics. You cannot defend the indefensible.
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tamsier
United Kingdom
557 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 08:54:11
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I have not read the book and can only go by your quotation. If that's what he said, that does not necessarily destroy the scientific theory or prove your case of a creator deity.
'It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause. Since space-time has a beginning there was a first physical occurrence.'
Any physical occurence in the universe has a cause does not necessarily mean it was a deity that caused it. For example, the cooling down of hot gas which turns into liquid then to solid would undoubted creat dust. This is what happened. As the sun was forming from gas cloud it began to shrink because of its own pull in gravity. This enabled it to spin even faster the 'cause' of which was to release lots of gas. This gas cooled down and turned into dust. This huge amount of dust led to things being pulled together by gravity, which began to get bigger and bigger. The result of this was meteors, astroids and yes planets.
Planet earth formed as a result of gases. There reactions and the activities that followed led to the formation [cause] of planet earth. That does not mean the gases and activities occured primarily with the 'intent' of creating planet earth. They just happened. Because of planet earths hospitality to life to evole compared to other planets, there was life. These evolved and changed and adapted in order to survive. That's why you have imperfections - and hence destroy the nortion of a pefect god as stated by the so called 'great world religions'.
Stars form, evolve, radiate energy and change in size. A star does not have intent, nor does a galaxy act in order to bring about a particular result ordained by particular god. You confused 'causation' with 'intent'. These two are totally different. |
Tamsier
Serere heritage. Serere religion. Serere to the end.
Roog a fa ha. |
Edited by - tamsier on 18 Oct 2009 08:59:46 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 19:31:37
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Some scientists use their science to argue against a GOD, but equally many scientists believe in a creator.
Who created the big bang? Is all of creation totally by chance?
Richard Dawkins is at the extreme end of the scientist view. His brand of humanism is almost a 'religion'.
I have an open mind....I am humanist (but not extreme, I respect others views)....but I am open to conversion!!! |
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