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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 10:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by jammin
........... However The Actions of Obama are in total contradiction with his word. ............. then offered an excuse why he reneged.
.................. but the Republicans had a valid question in asking about Obama's depth( or lack thereof) as it relates to leadership skills. Another example of Obama's flip-flop tendency.
I would rather have a purple leader, ........while advocating justice for all, than a black one,
Jammin the Campaign is over. the people have voted for Barack Obama. You cannot change this no matter how much contempt you have for Obama. Obama has crossed the Rubicon.
You are continously trying to bring to us a side of Obama you think is his weakness, lack of depth, flip-flop, etc. Fine
lets assume you are right. these qualities that you think Obama lack, I presume you are implying that Bush, Cheney, Rumpfeldt, Wolfowitz all have them. Fine, then despite all these sterling qualities look at where they have taken you (the USA) and the world. take a moment and pray for the thousnad who are dying everyday in Iraq and Afganistan. Just last month a US missile killed 90 afghans mostly children.
even if the War is one day short. If Obama can achieve just that, the world woul dbe a better place.
stop picking on Obama, i think you should condem the neocons and the MESS they have made. it is the gap they have created that other have come to fill.
you cannot lead a people if the people themselves dont believe in themselves. This is what Bush gave the US. Obama inspires them to believe in themselves again. Americans are very resources people. despite all your fears they will be out of this mess sooner than you think!
the trick, which i think you dont get, or refuse to accept is that Obama has a chance of being a BETTER PRESIDENT THAN BUSH or McCain.
that a lone is a success story. give the guy a chance,
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jammin
Jamaica
149 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 03:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
Jammin
You cannot change this no matter how much contempt you have for Obama.
You are continously trying to bring to us a side of Obama you think is his weakness, lack of depth, flip-flop, etc.
stop picking on Obama.
give the guy a chance,
Argumentum Ad hominem |
Like a colossus He doth bestride the Narrow World |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 21:21:41
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jammin
Your arguments are valid. Don't listen to njucks. he has been on a lots of presure nowadays as he has lost millons of dalasi in stock market due to financial crisis, he is getting personal with you. He thinks obama is messiah with some holy power to get him his millions back.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 13 Nov 2008 22:50:41 |
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Janko
Gambia
1267 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 01:04:44
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| Good points Njucks, don´t listen to turk he is an agitator. |
Clean your house before pointing a finger ... Never be moved by delirious Well-wishers in their ecstasy |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 01:36:58
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| janko is right. I am agitator of turkism. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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admin
130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 18:50:52
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Reply author: njucks
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 20:24:15
Message:
turk;
if i can borrow some words from the great Simon Jenkins, i dont think ''Obama Stocks are over priced'' nor will they crash as many are hoping. i buying more Obama Stocks.
neither do i think its fair to judge a presidency when the President hasnt taken office.
finally i also think its, misguided to believe that someone cannot deliver because they dont have a 'record','experience' etc when those who supposedly have it have not only failed they have made a mess of it all.
those who believe so much in experience,should be asking how Bush;Cheney managed to get it so wrong and also get away with it.
thats the issue to attack.
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 20:31:10
Message:
Njuks
For once we can agree. My believe is that experience is the worst teacher because it provides the answer before the test.
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 20:55:10
Message:
njucks
I support Obama. However, I am not convinced he is a 'messiah' or 'prophet'. it is ok to question 'what are his connections'. With only three years 'federal government political experience', also having big advantages being the alternative to the 'one of the worst president of the history, dubya', Obama is overrated at the moment. However, you are right, we can't judge his presidency before he became president. Neither can you about him being good president ever before he became a president.
Reply author: njucks
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 22:14:11
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by turk
njucks
.................. However, I am not convinced he is a 'messiah' or 'prophet'.
........... Neither can you about him being good president ever before he became a president.
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Kondorong, i dont agree with you, perhaps the answer is to get it right somehow, greed can become very powerful force. this is what happenned in this instance with Bush & co.
Turk,
on the first point i dont know where that came from. its as silly as the fear that Obama would paint the White House Black!! its just inherent fear.
on the second point. fair enough.but without twisting it, i was advocating that we give him a chance after Jan 20.
i would have said the same for Clinton or McCain, anyone can,should be able to do better than Bush.
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 14 Nov 2008 22:53:07
Message:
njucks
In this post, my focus was more if obama made a deal with the devil. Jammin had very valid point. Obama had only 3 years of Federal Government Experience. Media obviously (other than fox) supported him. Would Obama became the 'handsome, popular, black, well liked by Kenyans, Africans, Middleeastern, Europeans and the village of Obama in Japan.... a messenger of Devil'?
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President-elect Barack Obama's White House chief of staff apologized to the Arab-American community yesterday for remarks his father made to an Israeli newspaper. Last week, Benjamin Emanuel talked about his son Rahm Emanuel's new job, saying that "obviously he'll influence the president to be pro-Israel. Why wouldn't he? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to be mopping floors at the White House." The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee called on Rahm Emanuel, who is Jewish, to condemn the remarks. Yesterday, Rahm Emanuel called the group's president, Mary Rose Oakar, to apologize on behalf of his family. Oakar said the apology was accepted.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 10:46:17
Message:
From what I read on this topic, the historic significants of Obama's presidency has not been mentioned or explained.
First, his color is significant because colored people were far too long and still regarded as inferior in many corners of the United States and the West. Having lived in the US and work in Corporate America, you are looked upon as incapable until you proof yourself.
It is absolutely clear that colored people are as brilliant as anybody else on this universe. Obama's Presidency reaffirms that and for the first time in history without denial he will be looked to as a role model and the leader of the world.
Second, his Presidency sends a clear signal to young people of all color that with hope and hard work you can reach any height. Until recently, many young people could not imagine reaching that stage in life Not in the United States.
Third and probably more significant, is the principles of Democracy that propelled him to the highest office in the world. Remember hundreds of thousands of people (black people) lost their lives for simply being black and for wanting to participate in a democracy that is guranteed by the constitution of the United States.
Imagine, the likes of Dr. Martin Lurther King Jr, and thousands of others who fought for equality or simply freedom for colored people in the United States. All they were asking for is an equal participation to this great democratic process.
So Obama's Presidency represents:
. Those three beautiful little girls who were blowned up in a Church for simply being black
.Those millions of slaves who were forced to build a country only to be refused the liberty that country gives.
. Those thousands of people who were masacred in the streets of the South, some tied to backs of trucks and dragged for being black
. He represent those millions of Africans and other immigrants who left their love ones in search of the American dream and never realized it.
. He represent the hope of those millions of Africans who are being supressed by their own so called leaders. That they too can be free some day.
Obama's historic election (credit to the American people) truly represents the TRUE COLOR OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD.
This is some of the historic significants of the Obama candidacy.
Finally, I hope African leaders who were watching that night, will realized that the world has changed and that our people deserve better too. I also hope that Obama will look at those leaders in their eyes and tell them what it means to give hope to our people.
This is the reason why so many people were so emotional on this historic night. It simply means something to be treated as equal, as people who belongs to this great democracy.
Hope that help highlight the emotions and jubilation around Obama's Presidency....
Thanks
Reply author: MADIBA
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 20:25:41
Message:
DBaldeh,
That was a very insightful commentary. I am still stunned by the Obama victory. Still trying hard to make the most out it. This thread has helped me alot to piece together the emerging sober reflections of this great victory.
Keep them coming guys.
Reply author: kaanibaa
Replied on: 15 Nov 2008 23:58:59
Message:
DBaldeh, Chi dega dega touchngha yah be.You could not get it better than this for me my friend, wondrous wonders , your words have power,in them you summed it up so nicely for me. Halel kula jangal ?My hat is off its true man!
Reply author: jammin
Replied on: 16 Nov 2008 07:36:29
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
From what I read on this topic, the historic significants of Obama's presidency has not been mentioned or explained.
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That, my friend, is not accurate. In my opening post, I had asked what was the hoopla(significance)about. Indeed the title of the thread also made the query. Sister Omega in a response did make mention of its significance( as she saw it). Then again "Mention" can be limited to semantics.
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
First, his color is significant because colored people were far too long and still regarded as inferior in many corners of the United States and the West. Having lived in the US and work in Corporate America, you are looked upon as incapable until you proof yourself.
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Why should his color be of any significance? Wasn't he always at pain to make the point that he is an AMERICAN and campaigned on that platform? He had totally buried his blackness to the white electorate, so that he could ingratiate himself to the white votes and thereby nullify Hillary and Mccain lest they be accused as racist,while he himself used his skin color for the non-white votes.
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
It is absolutely clear that colored people are as brilliant as anybody else on this universe. Obama's Presidency reaffirms that and for the first time in history without denial he will be looked to as a role model and the leader of the world.
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Here I play the Devil's Advocate. While I agree with you on the brilliance concept, can you please enlighten me WHY most if not ALL African led countries, and I mean both on the continent and in the Diaspora are poorly organized, with the majority black population living in poverty? It is said that the development of a country is a reflection of its intelligentsia. On that basis then, isn't it an incongruity for African Nations?
Obama's victory reaffirm that any candidate with the right team can win a presidency. This was fittingly demonstrated with Bush's Election eight years ago.
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
Second, his Presidency sends a clear signal to young people of all color that with hope and hard work you can reach any height. Until recently, many young people could not imagine reaching that stage in life Not in the United States.
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While Obama may have secured himself a presidency and in the process sold millions of people this fiction of hope, The reality is, the opportunities for young people are dwindling rapidly, while simultaneously, economic power is being consolidated in the hand of the few. Many who are hoping for a better tomorrow, will not move beyond hope.
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
Third and probably more significant, is the principles of Democracy that propelled him to the highest office in the world. Remember hundreds of thousands of people (black people) lost their lives for simply being black and for wanting to participate in a democracy that is guranteed by the constitution of the United States.
Imagine, the likes of Dr. Martin Lurther King Jr, and thousands of others who fought for equality or simply freedom for colored people in the United States. All they were asking for is an equal participation to this great democratic process.
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This principle of democracy, this buzz word that Americans and Europeans use to deify their system of organisation can be deconstructed and expose for what it really is. I shall limit myself by saying that it is a construct design to maintain the status quo. That explain why blacks and non white remain at the bottom of the economic totem pole, Why blacks fill the prisons, Why justice is synonymous with wealth, why recent tokenism is heralded as a new dawn, why hope and change is promised, but the structures of privilege remain unaltered.
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
So Obama's Presidency represents:
. Those three beautiful little girls who were blowned up in a Church for simply being black
.Those millions of slaves who were forced to build a country only to be refused the liberty that country gives.
. Those thousands of people who were masacred in the streets of the South, some tied to backs of trucks and dragged for being black
. He represent those millions of Africans and other immigrants who left their love ones in search of the American dream and never realized it.
. He represent the hope of those millions of Africans who are being supressed by their own so called leaders. That they too can be free some day.
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RACE was never a part of his campaign, therefore it should not be seen as a victory for the black race. Obama made his challenge as an American not as a Black American and as such cannot be linked to the works of those who fought for black civil rights, there is a subtle distinction, but a distinction nevertheless.The rest of the World saw his skin color as secondary, they were more concerned to see the backs of Bush and his Republicans.
Reply author: Janko
Replied on: 16 Nov 2008 14:08:13
Message:
Thanks, dbaldeh and jammin
Very insightful point of observations, its a very complex issue, keep it up
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 16 Nov 2008 16:34:37
Message:
Obama's election is a great leap for people of color. On the mainland, there is none like him. Demba is right that the democratic process that brought him to power is remarkable.
But i have grown too well to know politicians will always do what they have been good at doing all along. They must be checked at all times and my fear of a hero worship, will make that process elusive and Obama might go scotch free.
I do not trust politicians of any kind. They must be watched and checked. A blank cheque is a dangerous idea to even entertain.
Reply author: jambo
Replied on: 18 Nov 2008 09:40:43
Message:
DO NOT THINK THAT RACE WAS NOT PART OF HIS CAMPAIGN, he did not make it an issue, but look at his grassroots support in america, som eof them MADE IT AN ISSUE.
yes he won because of his campaign, but a black man, by default would have some support because "IT IS OUR TIME".
did he not have the support of 106 year lady first time voter, whose mother was a slave,
READ some of the background stories.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 18 Nov 2008 10:11:12
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by kondorong
Obama's election is a great leap for people of color. On the mainland, there is none like him. Demba is right that the democratic process that brought him to power is remarkable.
But i have grown too well to know politicians will always do what they have been good at doing all along. They must be checked at all times and my fear of a hero worship, will make that process elusive and Obama might go scotch free.
I do not trust politicians of any kind. They must be watched and checked. A black cheque is a dangerous idea to even entertain.
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Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 18 Nov 2008 10:15:56
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by kondorong
Obama's election is a great leap for people of color. On the mainland, there is none like him. Demba is right that the democratic process that brought him to power is remarkable.
But i have grown too well to know politicians will always do what they have been good at doing all along. They must be checked at all times and my fear of a hero worship, will make that process elusive and Obama might go scotch free.
I do not trust politicians of any kind. They must be watched and checked. A black cheque is a dangerous idea to even entertain.
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Kon, the greatest thing about the democratic process is that the people can always come back in 4 or 8 years and undo what they did this time around. Should Obama and his team screw up and move the country to the wrong direction, we will come back and show them the exit.
Despite all the painstakes George Bush but this nation and the world through, he is finally history in humiliation. I bet you he has regret being a politicians.
The ballot is the greatest asset and power the ordinary people have to get rid of their politicians.
This is what African leaders cannot stand. They fail and never want to admit that they have failed. They hang on to power over and over until untimely death find them unprepared. They never have a chance to redeem their wrongs and see the world with a different set of eyes. Sad but is the reality.
Thanks
Reply author: anna
Replied on: 18 Nov 2008 12:27:41
Message:
Am wondering about the 'cheque' all the time. I think you mean a 'blank cheque' instead of a 'black' one. Funny, 'blank' in Dutch means 'white'. Is the cheque black or white ?
Anyway, we should never trust politicians to fulfil the promises they make during election time, so no 'cheques' - whatever colour!
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 18 Nov 2008 18:04:16
Message:
Demba
You are right. African leaders dont want to admit failure. They push on to the grave. Even Bush recently is beginning to admit to some regrets for a man who never thought hhe ever had faults. He gave examples like " Mission Accomplished" Banner "Bring it on", "Dead or Alive". For me these are still minor on a long laundry list.
Anna
I meant to write "blank cheque" instead of "black cheque". Trust no politician. I dont. The devil's dictionary defines politics as:
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.
It defines a politician as:
An eel in the fundamental mud upon which the superstructure of organized society is reared. When we wriggle he mistakes the agitation of his tail for the trembling of the edifice. As compared with the statesman, he suffers the disadvantage of being alive.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 19 Nov 2008 10:01:34
Message:
Kon thanks for the usual insightful comments.
I am just wondering - Should you become a politician or hold elected office, should the people trust you?
I think it is misleading to make a blanket statement that all politicians should not be trusted. If we the people politicians represent cannot trust them, why should we elect them to represent our interest?
What does it say about us electing people we don't trust? I think that is a dangerous precedence even though I can understand many people may be distrustful of politicians from personal experience.
Politicians like business people should always work to restore that public confidence. When public confidence is low then images suffer but at the end of the day politicians manage our daily bread and butter and we have to have them....
Just an observation...
Reply author: anna
Replied on: 19 Nov 2008 11:34:25
Message:
..and a justified one, Dbaldeh. But if the democracy works well, there is the Parliament calling the Government representative(s) back to come and explain to them why he/she/they deviated from the original promises or plans.
Western democracies are reasonably transparent (not totally alas, i am aware things go on behind closed doors still) so not much can be swept under the carpet - in the end there is always someone who finds out and questions decisions. What goes on in some African countries' governments (where governing is done by a president's lackeys and mostly by intimidation), could not happen in the Western world (anymore).
Kondorong, was it a typo? What a strange one....it (unbelievably) made me seriously think there might be something like a 'black cheque' for a moment. Anything is possible now that we have a 'black' president elect in the US. But no, there's no such thing - it will forever be 'carte blanche' and so 'blank cheque'.
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 19 Nov 2008 18:13:38
Message:
Baldeh
You see, merely being elected is no consolation for society to rest on their laurels. It’s the distrust of public officials that society created separation of powers. Why did you think the Executive, Judiciary and the Legislature are separated?
It’s simple. Power concentrated in one individual is a recipe for abuse of office and totalitarianism. Even if Halifa were to become President, trust me, I will continue to monitor his every movement and policy.
Nation building is never completed and that an election is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. I believe in the words of Karl Max when he said “Doubt every thing” a famous literary document he produced. I could not remember the spelling of the latin equivalent but it goes thus: UMNI BUS DUBI TANDUM.
If I were elected as a representative at any level, the first thing I will ask society is to scrutinize my every action because in the end, power always tries to corrupt and what may initially start as a genuine intention may get derailed unintentionally. To err is human and those who think they are not capable of mistakes are the most dangerous to be trusted with public office. I would like to EARN the trust of the people who elected me into office, but i would like them to keep me ACCOUNTABLE also.
If you know how public office operates as i do, you will appreciate the potential dangers of misinformation.
Obama recently said that what he is missing most right now is his privacy. His inability to go to his barbers shop for a hair cut or go for a walk. Now his Barber is brought to him at an undisclosed location. Obama has now started to put on dark glasses a sign of the trappings of the office. When he was looking for votes, he never for once covered his eyes and now that he has the mandate of people, his face is often covered.Slowly slowly he will begin to drift away.
The trappings of the office means direct contact with the common man on the street is almost impossible. You rely on a handful of people for information and those trusted with this role, almost always tamper with it for personal gains.
Thats why a free press becomes very important to enable you hear what your close aides would not like you hear.
In a democracy, you cannot afford to blink for a second.
Reply author: jammin
Replied on: 19 Nov 2008 20:25:12
Message:
Maybe you have already seen it... maybe you didn't,since it is not outside the vein of this thread, I thought I would drop the link here.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081119/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_al_qaida_obama
I am wondering how many Muslims and non-Muslims agree with the essentials of this article.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 09:42:09
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by kondorong
Baldeh
You see, merely being elected is no consolation for society to rest on their laurels. It’s the distrust of public officials that society created separation of powers. Why did you think the Executive, Judiciary and the Legislature are separated?
It’s simple. Power concentrated in one individual is a recipe for abuse of office and totalitarianism. Even if Halifa were to become President, trust me, I will continue to monitor his every movement and policy.
Nation building is never completed and that an election is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. I believe in the words of Karl Max when he said “Doubt every thing” a famous literary document he produced. I could not remember the spelling of the latin equivalent but it goes thus: UMNI BUS DUBI TANDUM.
If I were elected as a representative at any level, the first thing I will ask society is to scrutinize my every action because in the end, power always tries to corrupt and what may initially start as a genuine intention may get derailed unintentionally. To err is human and those who think they are not capable of mistakes are the most dangerous to be trusted with public office. I would like to EARN the trust of the people who elected me into office, but i would like them to keep me ACCOUNTABLE also.
If you know how public office operates as i do, you will appreciate the potential dangers of misinformation.
Obama recently said that what he is missing most right now is his privacy. His inability to go to his barbers shop for a hair cut or go for a walk. Now his Barber is brought to him at an undisclosed location. Obama has now started to put on dark glasses a sign of the trappings of the office. When he was looking for votes, he never for once covered his eyes and now that he has the mandate of people, his face is often covered.Slowly slowly he will begin to drift away.
The trappings of the office means direct contact with the common man on the street is almost impossible. You rely on a handful of people for information and those trusted with this role, almost always tamper with it for personal gains.
Thats why a free press becomes very important to enable you hear what your close aides would not like you hear.
In a democracy, you cannot afford to blink for a second.
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Kon, once again you are spot on. I totally agree with your notion that "Nation building is never completed and that an election is not an end in itself, but a means to an end".
Nothing can be more true than that and that is why that same election can be used to justify the removal of elected officials.
I still strongly believe that mans' strong principles and decency supercedes their quest for power. Yes power corrupts, and it surely comes with its own ups and downs. However, great honest leaders have been able to survived the temptations that come with power.
This I believe is deeply routed in their core principles and how they view society in general.
The creation of separation of powers is absolutely designed to give checks and balances on leaders ability to derail from the interest of society. Where there is no accountability, there is likely to be actions with no consequence. Therefore, the founding fathers of democracy created these levels of checks and balances to hold those willing to abuse their authority into account.
Those pillars of checks and balances are measures to curtail some of the weaknesses and or abuses leaders may show intentionally or not. So as a result, they think about the consequences.
My take is that, those politicians and soldiers are people like you and I. As you said, if you can ask the people to hold you accountable for your actions, so do I and so do other people as well. So I see no excuse in saying or believing that these group of people change because they have become politicians. When you look deep down corrupt leaders, you may find something (selfish)deeply routed in them.
To conclude, I believe all humans must be held accountable regardless of whether they are politicians, scientists, Journalists, or soldiers. It is our human conscience that separates the good and the bad among us regardless of profession.
For the record, Halifa is no different than any other politician. Neither do Obama. They got to be watched and call upon should they derail regardless of what role.
Got to run... but thanks for the debate.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 09:54:43
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by jammin
Maybe you have already seen it... maybe you didn't,since it is not outside the vein of this thread, I thought I would drop the link here.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081119/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_al_qaida_obama
I am wondering how many Muslims and non-Muslims agree with the essentials of this article.
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Jammin, to me there is no difference whether one is muslim or whatever religion of ones' choice. These people are simply bad people and when they are out to kill they don't discriminate.
Just so you know, these kind of groups start with their own blood. They kill their people the same way they will kill other people they called enemies.
They are struggling to control this world and it has nothing to do with religion. They use religion to rally support and gain the power they are looking for.
They know, when it comes to global extremism, there is no difference between Obama or Blair. Extremist idealogy need to be confronted in whatever form they come. It doesn't matter, it is the same brutal godless people who used Islam or Judaism to promote their agenda.
Watch Obama do something about global terrorism. It is not a military fight, but a law enforcement issue. With global cooperation across the world, extremism find itself in odd situations. That is the last breath they are fighting for.
When all nations realized that extremism is a common threat to society, then the fight gets harder for the extremist. Just a thought...
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 17:39:12
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
quote:
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Originally posted by kondorong
Baldeh
To err is human and those who think they are not capable of mistakes are the most dangerous to be trusted with public office.
In a democracy, you cannot afford to blink for a second.
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I still strongly believe that mans' strong principles and decency supercedes their quest for power. Yes power corrupts, and it surely comes with its own ups and downs. However, great honest leaders have been able to survived the temptations that come with power.
This I believe is deeply routed in their core principles and how they view society in general.
For the record, Halifa is no different than any other politician. Neither do Obama. They got to be watched and call upon should they derail regardless of what role.
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Baldeh
can you loook at the three paragraphs of yours again. If you believe that with power comes tendencies for corruption, if you also believe that Halifa is no different from any politician and that they must must watched, i guess we can agree on this issue that we should not trust politicians to a point that we can afford to not even bother to find out what they are doing.
Politicians are not Saints by the way and as such susceptible to errors. Sometimes such errors are not their faults but sometimes they are by design. So like my grandfather once told me, if some one tells you that there is a snake in a hole, do not put your hand in it to try to pull it out even if you are told it had no teeth.
Incase it had a teeth you are still safe and even if its true that it had no teeth, you are still safe.
So in your own words " They got to be watched and call upon should they derail regardless of what role"
Thats just what i was trying to express here. Perhaps the only few politicians i can comfortably say are honest are Ghandi and Nkrummah. Both died poorer than they were before they entered politics. The priviledges of leadership never advanced them.
Reply author: turk
Replied on: 20 Nov 2008 21:16:13
Message:
quote:
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it is the same brutal godless people who used Islam or Judaism to promote their agenda.
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You are right about the extremism. But The problem is usa only picking up on extremism when it fits its agenda. How about zionism that has an agenda to wipe off all palestinians from the map? Wait a minute, they already done it.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 21 Nov 2008 08:48:39
Message:
Kon, I looked at the paragraphs again, and yes you and I are in agreement on the needed oversight on politicians. Yet this doesn't justify the blanket statement that politicians cannot be trusted.
Rather than not trusting the people, how about if we agree that in fact the checks and balances are meant to protect the interest of the people instead of putting them in because we don't trust the politicians.
Am saying if we don't trust them, then why put our lives in their hands?
On the list of honest politicians, I will add Thomas Sankareh of Burkinafaso, Nelson Mandela of South Africa and others whose names have never been mentioned.
Thanks for a lively debate always. You have earned my trust even if you become a politician. I will still institute checks just incase.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 21 Nov 2008 08:58:40
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by turk
quote:
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it is the same brutal godless people who used Islam or Judaism to promote their agenda.
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You are right about the extremism. But The problem is usa only picking up on extremism when it fits its agenda. How about zionism that has an agenda to wipe off all palestinians from the map? Wait a minute, they already done it.
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Turk, Zionism is as terrible as extremism. The two labels are interchangeable in that are like what the West call bribery and Corruption in Africa, but they call the same dubious dealings Lobbying in the West. The double standards are clear and we all see them.
On a personal observation, I think Israel is mentally suffering as much as the Palestinians are physically suffering. Israel to me lives in constant fear of the people they fight daily. Despite the fact that they have a heavier handed hand, they are on an equal footing with Palestinians when it comes to security.
It just will never end between those two enemies. It dates back to time memorial and no solution in sight. The saddest part is that Palestians are fighting among themselves and Israelis at the same time. Who will lose more?
I just wish the good side of both sides will recognize that extremism on both sides need to be confronted and neutralized. Only then they can hope for some form of peace. There is nothing worst than hate and ignorance and that is a good part of what is going on there.
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 21 Nov 2008 18:05:43
Message:
quote:
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Originally posted by dbaldeh
Kon, I looked at the paragraphs again, and yes you and I are in agreement on the needed oversight on politicians. Yet this doesn't justify the blanket statement that politicians cannot be trusted.
Rather than not trusting the people, how about if we agree that in fact the checks and balances are meant to protect the interest of the people instead of putting them in because we don't trust the politicians.
Am saying if we don't trust them, then why put our lives in their hands?
On the list of honest politicians, I will add Thomas Sankareh of Burkinafaso, Nelson Mandela of South Africa and others whose names have never been mentioned.
Thanks for a lively debate always. You have earned my trust even if you become a politician. I will still institute checks just incase.
If you believe that the oversights in Government arenot indications of mistrust of politicinas, i dont know what is then. If you trust someone you dont create oversights around him. The best example of trust is a one party state where citizens just decided that one person should be leader for life. In such societies, the separation of powers dont exist.
Its like what the Wolof call: DOE JI TAL NIT, DIKO FAKATAL. It means you should not let some one infront of you and then try to make him fall. In other words, if you trust someone, why mount checks or investigations in his dealings.
In the United States for example, convicted felons can still run for Senate positions whilst felony is a grave issue for some. Infact my understanding is that convicted felons in the United States cannot vote. The denial to vote must also extend to the denial of not being elected. But it would not pass.
Whilst Senators have very good health care benefits for themselves and their families, they then turn around and tell the masses who elecetd them that there is no money for Universal health care
So these are some examples of why politicians must not be trusted at any time. Investigate, Investigate and investigate.
Infact convicted Senators are still entitled to a pension from the tax payer and some convicted felons are right now earning over $100,000.00 per annum as pension. Interestingly, they recently amended the law to exclude felons from getting pension but the law will only apply to newly elected Senators I have never heard of a situation where one pardons oneself. But thats what they just did.
So, instead of being honest and punish their own, the law will only apply to new comers in the Senate as if their seniority should protect them even if they are felons. Remember, these rules are made by a few, "trusted" by the majority but most often, its the majority who are at their mercy.
Reply author: dbaldeh
Replied on: 22 Nov 2008 11:44:13
Message:
Brother Kon, you and I can go back and forth on this and there is no end in sight. Our difference is that you narrowly define these checks and balances while ignoring the fundamental principles of checks and balances.
Let me take you outside of the political arena and direct you to business. In corporations there are internal and external audits. These system are put in place to make sure that policies that are in place and the system does exactly what it is designed to do.
It doesn't necessarily translate into lack of trust, but rather it acknowledges that humans are not perfect and they can make errors. This is kind of a universal principle where even we check ourselves or our work twice or more to make sure we are doing things right or don't leave something behind.
Once again, it is simply design upon recognition that humans are fallible.
check this statement:
"The best example of trust is a one party state where citizens just decided that one person should be leader for life. In such societies, the separation of powers dont exist".
Am afraid this statement above is a myth. One party systems are almost never embraced by citizens. It is rather imposed on them to believe that it is best when in all honesty it represents only the elites in power. A good example is Monarchy or kingship if you may. Citizens are forced to worship the king or queen.
I would rather have a politician I can check on than a minigod.
Our diagreement is to make a blanket statement that all politicians cannot be trusted. It is this believe that is partly responsible for citizens to disengage in their civic duties.
In Gambia for example, people will tell you why vote? because all politicians will do the samething. There is serious ignorance in this unfortunate believe. So I disagree, and generalizing statements like that are counter productive.
You are definitely well in tune with US politics and I see that you are a fan of CNN.
The facts are though there are different levels of felony convictions. Some felons can have their voting rights restored after they serve some punishment. Some are simply not because of their level of crime.
The samething applies to members of Congress. Am surprise that you have "never seen someone pardon themselves" That is what African leaders are greatly known for. Yahya Jammeh gave amnesty to himself and his Junta when the 1970 constitution was amended. The samething is happening across the horns of Africa.
I agree with you Members of congress in the U.S also pretty much acts in a similar way. They give themselves raise and yet fix a minimum wage. John MaCain has enjoyed universal healthcare through out his life as his family has always had free government healthcare ahd yet he think that is socialism.
All said and done, many politicians are not to be trusted, but credit should be given where it is due. Citizens should be fully encourage to participate in their political process which entually restores public confidence into a political process.
have a great weekend....
Reply author: kondorong
Replied on: 22 Nov 2008 16:40:45
Message:
Baldeh
May be i should be a little bit clear here. The reason i gave a one party state as an example of trust is that it is the only nearest you can give and if we agree that that itself has problems, then the issue of trust does not exist.
What you fail to admit is every one of us is selfish. To believe that some people cannot is a fallacy. We all have prejudices nd therefore there are no political saints.
The example of internal audits you gave did not come up as business practices out of the blue. Historically busniess never had one. It was after abuses of offices that infact internal audits were separated from the accounts departments. Before, an auditor used to report to the Chief Accountant. Not any more. Before the Purchasing Department used to be part of the stores department. Not any more in a good business environment. I dont want to star a business class but if you want to, we could go down that road too. I think i have some fair understanding of how business works.
Today, why do you think that in adition to an Internal audit, another unit called Management Accountants have cropped up in ourganisations?
I will finish this later. Just in a hurry.
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