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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 11:07:10
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emergent from the misery-laden ethereal gloom of a month of loss, i would like to ask those muslims amongst you the following question.
a question of islamic law, rather than local tradition or custom.
if a child is born to a mother who is a muslim and to a father who is of another religion, is the progeny simply not muslim, as the father is not, or is the offspring assumed to be automatically of the father's faith - whatsoever it may be?
thus, if i am a zen buddhist and i married a muslim, is my child lost to islam, and undenominated, or do the muslim community take the child to be a zen buddhist?
a muslim woman who marries a jew would presumably mean that the child has neither religion , as islam comes paternally and judaism maternally.
The jews would consider the child neither muslim, nor jewish. would the muslims consider the child not muslim but jewish?
what happens if a non-muslim converts to islam for the sake of marriage, albeit without serious intention (unbeknownst, maybe, to the mosque in which he converts) and then a child is born? is this child now a muslim in the eyes of islam as the father is nominally now an accepted convert?
can scholars please answer within the terms of the written islamic law.
some of us talked of this interms of logic, tradition and custom but they do no allow for the actual islamic legal position.
Does anyone feel able to settle these issues?
enjoy your day.
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Edited by - lurker on 14 Sep 2008 11:08:26 |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 17:39:05
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I will attempt to answer your question, but may I stress that I an NOT A SCHOLAR, I am just a student trying to learn more.
I think you ask a good question, the short answer to which is that under islamic law the child is by default a muslim regardless of the parents religion or lack thereof. There is a concept in islamic theology called FITRAH. This is an innated human nature of tawhid (belief in the oneness of Allah) and according to islamic theology all humans are born with it.
There is also a hadith reported by Abu Hurairah that supports this position. "No child is born except on Al-fitra (Islam) and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?"
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"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 14 Sep 2008 17:42:59 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 17:45:30
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salimina
253 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 18:05:55
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Lurker,
In sharia muslim women are not allowed to married a non muslim.So if a so called muslim woman married a non muslim then islam categorised it as if non believers married to each other.If non believers got a child where do you think that child belongs to? As the first commentator said every child is born a muslim but if non believers brought them up obviously that child will be a non believer in most cases.
In addition, you cannot married just for the sake of seeing a nice face. If that is the intension then being a muslim is void. |
Edited by salimina |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2008 : 20:10:03
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Fitra does not require for any of the parents to be muslim. In a nutshell, all humans regardless of their parents' religion are born muslim because they have the primodial human nature of tawhid. Now a child may grow up to be a follower of another religion or no religion at all because of what they are exposed to, but under islamic theology they are muslims. This is so because until someone matures they are not held responsible for anything and therefore are by default muslims according to the laws of Allah and islam for this matter.
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"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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musa pembo
United Kingdom
154 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 01:18:45
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Hello Lurker,
I am incline to concur with the answer given by Salimina.This is the Quranic injunction that guides our action in this regard: "...Nor marry(your girls)to unbelievers until they believe:A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever,Even though he allure you."
Surah Baqara verse 221.
I hope this helps.
Musa. |
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Bodwick
United Kingdom
60 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 04:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by musa pembo
"...Nor marry(your girls)to unbelievers until they believe:A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever,Even though he allure you."
Surah Baqara verse 221.
To find a man slave in this day and age you would have to go to someplace like Mauritania. Now as a person thats been there a great deal I can tell you that your not welcome there. Thats the reason so many people jump on the boats from Senegal rather than risk the wrath of the desert people. Last time I left with a Gambian I was told never to bring another one with me by a very senior officer.
I guess if you have enough money they might sell you a slave which would make a change from buying a wife. Maybe this is just another dig at westerners and it doesn't really mean man slave...
Are the Kuffar realy so bad? Where do say Gambian or Muslim men that marry stand? Is it ok for men but just a total nono for women?
Regarding the buying of wives, is this old idea also causing the selling of young girls of 12 and up to the travelling men wandering around Gambia buying extra wives who should maybe have more choice in their futures rather than being sold which is itself slavery...
An interesting thread. |
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert A. Heinlein The Notebooks of Lazarus Long |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 08:56:58
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quote:
Originally posted by musa pembo
Hello Lurker,
I am incline to concur with the answer given by Salimina.This is the Quranic injunction that guides our action in this regard: "...Nor marry(your girls)to unbelievers until they believe:A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever,Even though he allure you."
Surah Baqara verse 221.
I hope this helps.
Musa.
"...Nor marry(your girls)to unbelievers until they believe
This could be the reason" Islam insanity: Father secretly circumcision son and mother charged him -!"
I read it this morning in some Germany's news lines.
I don't know if they were belonging to same religion will be that problematic, but Allah (sw) Knows best.
Yes every child born as Muslim but as we know also that a child has more right on the father side than the mother, and the same also with the mother self!
Some may see this on other perspective, but we are being instructed why.
If the father doesn’t accept that the son being Muslim, the mother must accept it until the child grows and decided by him self but the mother cant get blames on the father, while she know this shouldn't’t be in the first point. But if opposite the father as Muslim, then of cause (should) automatically be seen as a Muslim.
Allah(SW)knows best. |
Edited by - mbay on 15 Sep 2008 08:57:26 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 10:16:39
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thank you all, so far, for your input.as i feared, no-one has an absolute answer, but people seem to have a belief based on certain verses, their own experiences and hearsay.
is there not a simple law that says that the child's religion goes with the fathers? this is what i have been told by some(most?) gambians i know.
the variations have obviously been assessed by scholars over the years. but what is the actual rule of islamic law?
i understand musa and salimina talking of not marrying girls 'til they have found a believer as a husband, but that does not address the religious status of the offspring in a mixed marriage. sorry if i am being a tad thick.
this has implications in marriage, birth, death, inheritance etc.
as for all children being born muslim....i suspect the other earthly 5 billion souls may have a thought on that one....but the reality is not one of a child being born a muslim and then making a choice later.that idea is theological or philosphical.
the reality is that children follow their parents.
they are not given free religious choice 'til older , by most.
so that comforting notion does not really apply in reality.
a child will generally be taught it's pattern of behaviour, thoughts and religious identities by mum and dad and school and peers.
so...
when a child is born to one muslim and one non-muslim, in this day and age,
does the child follow dad or mum's religious identity in islamic law.
i get what people have said, but the thread has thrown up inconsistencies and contradictions, don't you think.
please continue to debate as it is very interesting and important that we know where the kids stand in such issues without confusion.
again, thank you for your contributions.
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 10:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by lurker
thank you all, so far, for your input.as i feared, no-one has an absolute answer, but people seem to have a belief based on certain verses, their own experiences and hearsay.
is there not a simple law that says that the child's religion goes with the fathers? this is what i have been told by some..
what i means here has no defernt with what you ask.
If the father doesn’t accept that the son being Muslim,(which means that he blong to different religions)the mother must accept (which means she has to understand that she and child blongs to the mans rule) it until the child grows and decided by him self but the mother cant get blames on the father, while she know this shouldn't’t be in the first point |
Edited by - mbay on 15 Sep 2008 10:30:53 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 11:01:14
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Lurker, I didn't want to get into this discussion because of the inherent subjective nature of it, but I will have to say that if you ask muslims about this intensely personal question you can, at best, only expect an islamic answer.
I think children in mixed-marriages should be allowed to know and experience as mush as possible about the religion (or lack of it) of both parents, and be left to choose what they want to be when they reach maturation. I think each family can set their own ground rules with respect to this, but largely children borned to mixed parents (especially in the western world)generally take up the dominant religion of the society they grow up in. They may increasingly debunk religion completely ...
The kids should not just be an extension of their parents, instead they should be educated and groomed to make their own rational choices about life and living... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 15 Sep 2008 11:02:24 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 11:03:02
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| i agree with you.simply wanted to know which side of the family passes on the religion. varies in different religions. which is the muslim way? |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 11:15:22
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| Well, the Muslim way will perhaps be what mansaulu and others said, even though there is a variation in their positions.I personally do not think religion is passed on like a family business, but I might be wrong... |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 12:41:08
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let me add something to this, my christian friends who have married muslim women have not enforced the religion on the child just because the women have been relaxed about the religion, they are happy for the child to know the muslim religion, but the mother accepts that the child will probably go to a christian school or private school. Also the child has a christian/gambian name, is normally registered with the local church, this is for identity for the child, church records are a recognised form of idea.
the religious implications have never arisen, it has never
raised any problems. but i think that is to do with the gambia as a whole being understanding. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 15:22:19
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Lurker, I didn't know you were not looking for a 'theological or philosphical' answer? The reason why muslim men can marry non muslim women and muslim women cant do likewise perhaps gives you the precise answer you are looking for. Men tend to have more influence [dominance] over women than vice versa, so with that we can deduce that the children from a 'legal mixed marriage' will follow the religion of the most influencial [dominant] mate.
Some scholars have gone as far as stating that it is not allowed for muslim men to marry non muslim women if they cannot have more sway on them in matters of religion as is more often in the west. This is so because muslim men are encouraged to marry non-muslim women because of the expectation that even if the women do not 'revert' to islam, the children bore out of such marriage will become muslim. Even the Vatican recognizes this fact when it cautioned catholic women against marrying muslim men in May 2004.
This is the way I see it will my little knowledge, and as Kayjatta put it, the issue is a "ubjective" in as much as the question is subjective. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2008 : 15:45:10
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thank you mansa. (i did originally ask for the legal ruling).
so it seems that what i was told is basically the trend. the father's religion is the religion that is passed down to the kids.
(the reasons for this might appear unfortunate to some minds- male domination, women's lack of importance/influence etc, but that is for another day.)
so , if i am getting the gist of this, theologically, all children are muslim until they choose otherwise.
male dominance dictates that the kids follow the male religion, so it is ok for men to marry out of islam, but not the reverse.
in a mixed marriage with a muslim father, the wife may choose not to convert, but the kids are muslim anyway, with the basis that this is creating more muslims anyway, irrespective of the mother's position or religious sensibilities?
fascinating.
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