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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 09:22:34
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The conflict that has unfolded between Russia and Georgia on the 6th of August, 2008 has no immediate end in sight. Russia's invation of Georgia (both were members of the former USSR that has since collapsed following Mikhail Gorberchev's Perestroika and Glasnost (reformations) in the 1980s)really shocked the world.
However, many observers are not supried by Russia's behavior. Despite the collapse of the USSR, Russia continues to nurture an ambition of maintaining strong influence of dominion over its neighbors and former allies such as Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Chechnya, among others. Russia under Vladmir Putin has consistently resisted these countries' democratisation process and their desired gravitation towards United States, Europe and NATO membership. Russia also has an ambition for resource control in this region, particularly the oil pipelines (routes). I would like to say at this point that Russia's disproportionate attack on Georgia is by all indications a displacement of frustration at United States, Europe, and NATO.
I intend to particularly examine the ongoing conflict between Russia and Georgia in my subsequent posts. I will specifically use 'systems theory' analysis to examine the nature of Russia/Georgia conflict. I will also look at the 'sequence pattern' (i.e. the chronology of events that led to the spiral of this conflict), the nature of power imbalance between Russia and Georgia, as well as the style and tactics of conflict both are utilizing.
I will also examine the implications of this conflict on the United Nations, since Russia being a veto power is intent on vetoing any resolution for a cease fire...
...to be continued...
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 10:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
.... Russia's invation of Georgia really shocked the world.
However, many observers are not supried by Russia's behavior.
I would like to say at this point that Russia's disproportionate.
I will also look at the 'sequence pattern'
haha Kayjatta
you raised three good points. One is that most people are not surprised. Two, this pattern of occupation is the new World Order. Third, is the ''disproportionate'' response. The World is used to this as well, Israel shoots Palestinians children with rubber bullets whenever they throw stones at its soldiers.
if the US can invade/occupy Iraq and get away with it, then so will Russia, and why not. this is the new world order. If Kosovo can declare independence because it is backed by the West. The so too can the breakaway regions that Russia suports/backs.
I think the President of Georgia will come to realise that Western rhetoric is just that-empty talk! He will pay a heavy price for his foolishness.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 10:46:19
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| Good observations Njucks..., thank you... |
Edited by - kayjatta on 12 Aug 2008 10:49:39 |
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sab
United Kingdom
912 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 13:08:49
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Your examination K should look at the The Caspian Sea Oil area & could go as far back as 1919 when a journalist asked the audience at the 1919 People's Congress of the East, in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan: 'Do you know how they prounounce Baku in the United States? OIL!'
Apart from America & Europe wanting the Caspian oilfields Hitler in his invasion of Russia also planned the prize of Caspian resources.
Its all about the pipeline map..That is why Russia attacked Chechnya.
I use to post about this area years back and look forward to reading your analysis.
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The world would be a poorer place if it was peopled by children whose parents risked nothing in the cause of social justice, for fear of personal loss. (Joe Slovo - African revolutionary) |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 15:36:06
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I have my roots coming from this region. Very difficult region. I am not sure Russia can attack on pipeline. That pipeline belongs to Turkey some western countries and the other turkish republics like azerbaijan, kazakistan and turkmenistan have interests. If russians attack on pipeline, that may cause wider war. I think russia will not go ahead. They may take south osetia and abazha but they can't go further. They just want to punish georgia as georgia is getting better economically recently. The Batum airport open with free passage to Turkey. Turkey, Georgia and Azerbaijan started the railway construction connecting these three nations. Now this happened. These projects just like pipeline got major destruction. This is move to destablize the region. And they may actually succeed.
Currently, there are no connection between two turkish state, turkey and azerbaijan. There is armenia and georgia between. If the pipeline became unusable as turkey and azerbaijan had invested billions of dollars on it. Turkey would attack armenia to have connection to azerbaijian and other turkish republics. They already have excuse. Armenia invanded part of azerbaijan. As azerbaijan attacks armenia, turkey will have to help his turkish brothers and that would be scary.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 12 Aug 2008 15:38:41 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 15:40:30
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| While russia is the guilty one on this conflict. Yankees set bad example as they attack on iraq as well. It is all about imperialism. Countries like georgia, iraq are the losers of greed superpowers. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 16:32:55
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Frankly the tepid response from the international community particularly the 'big nations' says it all. It is a case of pitting smaller nations and bigger nations for a demolition derby. Only a few nations can invade other nations with impunity and Russia is sadly a part of this select few...we all know who the rest are offcourse.
In one of Robert Kagan's books "Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order" [i stand to be corrected], he shows how nations use dispropotionate force against weaker opponents to inflate their actual strength.
This act of aggression by Russia is one of the tragic dilemmas and realities of intenational ralations today. At the end of gulf war, an Indian General was quoted to have said the following: "If you are going to war with the united states, you better have a nuclear weapon..." Frankly the same can be said of Russia as well. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
Edited by - mansasulu on 12 Aug 2008 16:34:05 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 18:42:48
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Because UN mechanism is wrong. Veto power is messing up everthing. For example, since Russia has veto, UN can't do anything about it.
In another topic i started UN discussion. Under my proposal. Ideally
Georgia must be dealt with the sitution in Regional level. Let us say conferance between Russia, armenia, Turkey, Azerbaijan. If fails, you go to UN general legislative branch and get a solution.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 15:23:28
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This region has many ethnic groups. It is mountinous so you may talk chechen in one mountain, the other you end up speaking turkish. Russians and turks are the main competitors in the area for hundreds of years. It is divided based on religion and ethnicity and ideology. While most muslims are Turkish side, there are christians nations like georgians are willing to be against russians as they want to join Turkey and EU, Nato, liberal market economies. So in addition religion, the ideologic differences play roles in the conflict. And ethnicity. People in the region are very nationalist and radical about their cultural identity.
The region does not have oil other than the turkish republic of azerbaijan. But they are in the middle of rich caspian oil and natural gas resources from turkistan to EU. Russia already is producer of oil/natural gas and has pipeline to EU. But they want to have monopoly to bring european nations on their knees. Turkey is their competititors. Turkey wants to bring Turkistan oil/natural gas from via its land to EU.
Now russians are taking action against this. because they are not willing to share this strategic advantage which is very important against EU.
So what is russian wants:
1. Putin is leading this war. His personality is really a bully as he was ex martial arts fighter and secret service agent. He already act with strong punishment against chechens. Now, it is time to move against georgia to punish them for their desire to get away from russian empire.
2. Russia already in control of abhazia and osetia. These nations are already submitted to be part of russia. Or they were forced to that. They are not russian but obviously propoganda and some other factors make them pro-russian. Now, they want to make this official. Russian wants these two region to join russian empire.
NATO wants to be back to status que ante but it is difficult on the paper or actually on the land. People in these region don't want to stay with georgians. Russian already have military in these places. People do not want to be part of georgia.
3. With this act, russia wants to show that, the region is closed to NATO. Turks is supporting Georgian to join NATO so they can have buffer against russia. Also, turks have great economic interests with georgia. They already built the pipeline, also, they are building railway, roads, airports. Georgia and Turkey want to create free economic zone. This way Turks can directly access to their brothers in azzerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgistan, Kazakistan and Xinjian in China.
4. The messege is also to Georgians. They say, don't trust Turkey, NATO or west. You are in my backyard, recenlty you are being naughty. This is a warning to you.
As oil/gas prices go up. Russian economy is getting stronger. They overcome the crisis after Soviet Empire died. They already have tremendous technology, natural resources, military so they want to show their muscles and tell west, I am your competitor.
Obviously, USA is fighting against their dream, non-existing enemy of Islam, they really forget about their old enemy, russia. The war on terrorism is obviously about oil and protection of israel. So now yankees is realizing they will not win the war on all the fronts.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 11:59:08
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good posting Turk, these days you watch on TV how ordinary Georgian are suffering under Russia occupation. Georgia has troops in Iraq, to support the americans. its ironic.I hope that Iraqis will have the opportunity.
i spoke of a New World Order earlier, apparently some think its the New World Disorder!
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,572059,00.html
the section on Multipolarity 'speaks volumes' of our current situtation! |
Edited by - njucks on 14 Aug 2008 12:07:02 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 14:11:23
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| While I am on Georgia/US side on this issue. I blame US for setting up example. If russian come and say, hey, you did the same thing in Iraq, I guess yankees can't say much, ain't it. |
diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2008 : 02:09:49
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Who are considering the UN Charter permits military force today or Security Council (Article 42). Am afraid none, Not even those who are making it.
Another made in the US/West with they propagation and brain washing.
The case is well knowing by them before even the Berlin conference in 18 centuries, Now renewed by the new world policemens.
The 1999 bombing of Serbia by NATO forces has showing that they have come to across the border. Another formation of provoking.
But to stick with the fact, Whether Russian or the West, No one have right to take peoples live or displacing them. this is their place and having every right to live there!
The UN Charter permits military force to be used only under 2 conditions. (1) self-defense by an individual nation or a group of nations (Article 51) or (2) as part of enforcement action by a UN force authorized by the UN Security Council (Article 42).
The use of military force against a nation by another nation or group of nations in order to protect the human rights of the people within the borders of the offending nation would therefore be legitimate in current international law only when an international force is authorized by the Security Council.
Even people with little known about politics also know what fooling is and which not.
Did they thing they can full the Russian as doing to the third world?
the just to remember that they all went to same schools and if want call it (smartness?) belong them all.
What dose this means by building their so call PROTACTION station(a ATOM bomb?)in Poland through the freighting of Iran. they could base it some where in Arabian peninsula or even israel.
If you look at RT news channel or other part of the world you will relays that our median are here feeding us just what is pleasing us, This have to be get to the top but has nothing to do with the fact.
UN. What is UN or NATO and who are siting there? If you recall of The 1999 bombing of Serbia by NATO forces, which NATO asserted was undertaken to provide humanitarian intervention to protect the rights of the Kosovo ethnic Albanian population, was not only illegal, because the use of an international force for this purpose had not been approved by the Security Council,
UN is a folding Capet, open it when you came end leave it open or not the next one will have idea to it.
example the Peace of Westphalia and smiler to it brought only a
respite to the wars of Europe, which continued during the succeeding centuries.
Recognition of the horrors of war led in the mid-19th century to the drafting of the .Geneva Conventions and the organization of the International Red Cross. Representatives of European nations and of a few other nations met in the 1899 and 1907 Hague Peace Conferences to discuss limitations on inhumane methods of waging war. Representatives of nation-states negotiated in 1919 the formation of the League of Nations and in 1945, after another devastating global war.
So still today nothing has changed, In fact it gets only worst!
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Edited by - mbay on 17 Aug 2008 02:17:53 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 09:29:40
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RUSSIA: THE NEW FACE OF OCCUPATION
kayjatta
Introduction:
The conflict that has unfolded between Russia and Georgia on the 6th of August, 2008 has no immediate end in sight. Russia's invasion of Georgia (both were members of the former USSR that has since collapsed following Mikhail Gorberchev's Perestroika and Glasnost (reforms) in the 1980s) really shocked the world.
However, many observers are not surprised by Russia's behavior. Despite the collapse of the USSR, Russia continues to nurture an ambition of maintaining strong influence of dominion over its neighbors and former allies such as Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Chechnya, among others. Russia under Vladimir Putin has consistently resisted these countries' democratization process and their desired gravitation towards United States, Europe and NATO membership. Russia also has an ambition for resource control in this region, particularly the oil pipelines (routes). I would like to say at this point that Russia's disproportionate attack on Georgia is by all indications a displacement of frustration at United States, Europe, and NATO.
I intend to particularly examine the ongoing conflict between Russia and Georgia in my subsequent posts. I will specifically use 'systems theory' analysis to examine the nature of Russia/Georgia conflict. I will also look at the 'sequence pattern' (i.e. the chronology of events that led to the spiral of this conflict), the nature of power imbalance between Russia and Georgia, as well as the style and tactics of conflict both are utilizing.
I will also examine the implications of this conflict on the United Nations, since Russia being a veto power is intent on vetoing any resolution for a cease fire.
The end of the Cold War marked by the fall of the Soviet Union under the watch of Mikhail Gorberchev and Ronald Reagan’s presidency is both a blessing and a curse for world peace. One of the biggest benefits of the Cold War between USA and USSR was that it helped aligned the world behind one or the other parallel superpowers that kept each other at bay. The end of this bipolar world marked the emergence of what many refer to as the multi-polar world. There are indeed multiple centers of power today, especially with the emergence of China and India with their huge populations and aggressive economies. The oil boom of recent years has provided untold wealth and leverage to countries that otherwise did not matter on the world stage. Iran for example can afford to invest in a nuclear program thereby escalating the security concern in the Middle East, and Venezuela can afford to use its economic leverage from oil sales and giveaways to redefine the geopolitics of Latin America. Many of these countries can afford to create conflict unilaterally or in liaison with other states and non-state entities knowing full well that the United States (and Europe) is resource constrained and lacks the support of their citizens to intervene.
The collapse of the Soviet Union and the gravitation of its satellites such as Ukraine, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Georgia, Chechnya, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and others has not gone down well in Russia, the seat and main beneficiary of the Soviet Union. Russia still nurtures nostalgia for its imperial past. Vladimir Putin particularly aspires to maintain a strong political and economic dominion over its neighboring countries that were once under the Soviet Union. Russia aspires to create and maintain a soviet empire as a replacement of the Soviet Union, especially after its 1998 failed attempt at capitalism.
The support given by the United States to these nations in Russia’s backyard to help and facilitate their democratization, security and economic independence from Russia, as well as NATO’s perceived encroachment on Russia’s sphere of influence, by expanding its membership to the former soviet countries on Russia’s border leaves Russia quite isolated and uncomfortable politically, economically and security wise. Russia has consistently resisted U.S. and European presence and influence in its backyard “pocket empire”. U.S. and NATO intervention in the Balkans, and the recent independence of Kosovo from Serbia were vehemently opposed by Russia. The agreement between U.S. and Poland to build a missile shield in Poland is also likely to generate fury in Moscow. Russia has in turn used both trade (mainly oil) and military muscle to coerce its neighbors into compliance. It has also undertaken series of steps on the world stage to undermine U.S. and European interests especially with regards to Iran. Russia under Putin/Medvedev regime is Iran’s most important ally in the Middle East today. Iran has said that it will wipe Israel off the map and that the holocaust is a myth.
Putin is very focused on strengthening Russia’s economy through the sale of arms, oil, and natural gas as well as selling high tech goods such as nuclear reactors, and expanding business ties abroad. Russia’s relation with Iran is a long history, but in recent years starting from Boris Yeltsin through Vladimir Putin to Medvedev, their relationship is defined by the nuclear reactor Russia is helping build in Bushehr, Iran that has become the worry of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Russia also sells jet planes, tanks, and submarines to Iran. The problem with Russia’s arming of Iran is that it could backfire on Russia some day. Russia and Iran had a conflict before over Chechnya; therefore Iran under Ahmadinejad (a religious fanatic) cannot be a trusted ally of Russia. Russia and Iran are friends not because they love each other, but because they have a common enemy, the United States and Europe. Watch out for a ‘blow back’ some day.
I have to return to the conflict raging between Russia and Georgia presently. Russia’s conduct in Georgia is consistent with what it is doing or has done in Chechnya and Moldova. But the conflict with Georgia is perhaps Russia’s last recourse to showcase its lost power as well as its new found power. There is no doubt that Georgia made a huge tactical mistake by attacking South Ossetia, perhaps thinking that United States will intervene if Russia reacts; however Russia’s disproportionate military operation in Georgia reveals a lot about Russia’s long standing intention in the region as well as its displacement of frustration. Like the kid who is angry at his bigger brother (but cannot do anything about him) venting his anger by smashing a plastic doll, Russia punishes Georgia in order to avenge the perceived wrongs U.S. and Europe committed against her.
One of the methods to analyze and understand conflicts is the systems theory approach as espoused by Bateson, G (1972, 1980) and others. This is the approach I have taken to discuss this conflict between Russia and Georgia.
Systems theory:
A complete analysis of the Georgia/Russia conflict will have to take consideration of the following:
1. The dynamics of the overall system involving the relationship between and among Russia, Georgia, U.S., Europe, and the other former soviet republics
2. The recurring actions and behaviors inside this system that are associated with this conflict
3. The individual contribution of each and all of these countries to the overall system that generate the conflict.
This approach to analyzing, understanding, and intervening in conflict is rooted in systems theory. We have to examine the whole system, not just the relation between Russia and Georgia. The recurring issues of NATO membership, arms and oil trade, and East/West power politics are what continue to define Russia/Georgia relationship.
A chronology of events:
Many of the former Soviet republics adopted a western style market economy after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Russia was hit by an economic crisis in 1998.
Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Moldova created a group (GUAM, a subsidiary of the Commonwealth of Independent States) to counter Russian dominance and influence.
In 2005 Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova were joined by Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania to form the Community of democratic Choice, which is another group intended to stifle Russian Interest in the region.
Since 2003, several revolutions in the former soviet republics have witnessed the rule of the mainly anti-Russian opposition. The Orange revolution in Ukraine brought in Viktor Yushchenko, the Tulip revolution in Kyrgyzstan led to the resignation of Asker Akayev, and the Rose revolution in Georgia led to the fall of Eduard Shevardnadze, a pro-Russian and former USSR secretary of State under Mikhail Gorberchev.
Many of the military conflicts in the post-soviet era are related to the separatist activities of Chechnya, Transnistra (in Moldova), Nagorno-Karabakh (in Azerbaijan, and Abkhazia and South Ossetia (in Georgia). These so-called “Frozen conflicts” with a significant population of Russian-speaking people makes this region a political and security hot bed.
On august 7th, 2008 Georgia launched a surprise attack on south Ossetia to get control of the break-away enclave. Then within hours Russia launched an all out invasion of Georgia on the pretext of protecting its citizens in South Ossetia even though South Ossetia is within the internationally recognized borders of Georgia.
What is Russia’s approach to this conflict? How is Russia utilizing its power to wage this war? What power does Georgia have, and how is it utilizing it?
Power play:
It appears clear that Russia has the upper hand in this conflict. Russia is the high-power country and Georgia is the low-power country. Therefore, Russia by all indications is utilizing high-power tactics of conflict, while Georgia is utilizing low-power tactics. This is illustrative of the power imbalance that exists between Russia and Georgia today.
Russia’s invasion, bombing and rampaging of Georgia, and its continued denial or downplaying of the atrocities and long term ambitions in Georgia’s sovereign territory are high-power tactics. However, with regards to its relation to U.S. and Europe, Russia could also be using low-power tactics. Russia’s rejection of international norms and standards to invade and plunder a sovereign country, and have the U.S., European Union, and U.N scrambling to contain the situation obviously gives Russia a sense of elevated power, real or perceived. Wilmot, et al (2007) argued that people and nations can increase their power by investing less in a relationship…
Georgia, on the other hand is playing low-power tactics. The attributes of low-power tactics that Georgia is utilizing are its interpersonal linkages (interpersonal connections) in the international community, especially with U.S. and E.U., as well as its communication skills (that is Georgia and Shaarkasvili’s ability to eloquently tell the world its side of the unfolding story about Russian atrocities and why U.S. and E.U. should intervene. If you have ever had a conflict with an African woman (let’s say a typical Gambian woman), you will probably get an idea of what I am talking about here. The woman’s ability to weave her story well, tell it loud and build a coalition around the children, friends and outsiders can often be a formidable force of power. This is consistent with the relational theory of power. Power is a property of the social relationships rather than a quality of the individual or nation (Wilmot, et al, 2007). Therefore, Georgia’s tactic is also a relational tactic. Georgia’s real power lies in its relationship with the U.S. and E.U., not its military power.
I think it is this relational power of Georgia that is capable of damaging Russia’s standing in the world. This conflict could therefore equally hurt Russia’s reputation as much as it does Georgia’s economy and infrastructure. Russia could be dismissed from the G8, and its entry to the World Trade organization (WTO) could be further delayed. Other countries in Russia’s sphere of influence could also be scared into a precipitated NATO and E.U. membership, thereby increasing Russia’s relative isolation in the world.
Final note:
Russia seems to be arguing that since U.S. invaded Iraq without a U.N. mandate, it should also be able to invade Georgia on the pretext of its national security interest. In my view, Russia’s argument in that respect is redundant. Russia needs to learn from the U.S. tragedy in Iraq instead of repeating it.
I will also have to say that Georgia’s president has over-estimated the amount and nature of support he could get from the U.S. I do not think U.S. is going to engage Russia militarily over Georgia. United States does not have the resources, not even the political capital right now to do so.
Meanwhile, Russia is under intense pressure to withdraw its forces from Georgian territory. We will see if Russia honors its promise of withdrawing on Monday, August 18, 2008.
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Edited by - kayjatta on 19 Aug 2008 06:29:19 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 12:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by kayjatta
..........If you have ever had a conflict with an African woman (let’s say a typical Gambian woman), you will probably get an idea of what I am talking about here. The woman’s ability to weave her story well, tell it loud and build a coalition around the children, friends and outsiders can often be a formidable force of power
 , not that i have anything against African women but you have made some very good points.
i agree, the thing is the West realise that a good relation with Russia is more valuable. imagine with the Winter coming, all the Russians have to do is squeeze the valves on the oil and gas pipeline to Europe.They have done it before, last year. Infact they would make billions overnight. They dont have to fight with anyone. So you see its a Zero-Sum game that the West is avoiding. They can only loose whilst Russia gains.
i disagree that the argument that the US invade Iraq is redundant. this illegal example, where Iraq was invaded because of 'WMDs',is what is giving eveyone the courage to invade these days. Turkey invaded Iraq, Afghanistan threatened to invade Pakistan (yes not a joke) some months back, Israel was flying planes towards Iran. This is our world today. anyone can invade anyone and nothing comes out of it.
dont you see, the very members of the security council are the ones breaking international law, and they even get to VETO against any differing opinion.
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Edited by - njucks on 18 Aug 2008 12:18:27 |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 12:36:27
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| You got real good points there Njucks. i think Turks proposal for a 'new U.N.' is also compelling... |
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mansasulu
997 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 16:07:47
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| great analysis, Kay. I enjoyed reading the piece. |
"...Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest..." Sura Al-Rad (Chapter 13, Verse 28)
...Gambian by birth, Muslim by the grace of Allah... |
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