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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 13:43:15
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this is a question for africans, mainly. i think we know the european views in general.
is mugabe an african hero , a man of honour, a good leader, a liberator , a statesman, an honest, misunderstood african leader/
or is he one of the biggest stains on the map of africa?
what do his fellow africans feel about this man?
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Momodou
Denmark
11826 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 14:08:45
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| He was a liberator and a hero but now he is a ruthless villain. Like other dictators, he has over stayed. |
A clear conscience fears no accusation - proverb from Sierra Leone |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 08:12:40
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Mugabe’s Zimbabwe
The man who will not be forgoing so soon.
The man we remembers as one of African hero has turns the page on the red side. I think the man is not willing to understand anymore that Between laughter and playing the souls become healthy.
The tendency in Zimbabwe is strained. Policemen patrolling in the capital Harare, in order to hold the situation under control: After the elections on Saturday the country waits for results. And those are long in coming unusually. Debt to it is according to opposition and choice observers a president Robert Mugabe. One assumes the Zanu PF the results are already present and the choice was manipulated. Thus only the results of 90 of the 210 electoral districts for the parliamentary election were present up to the late . Therefore the oppositional MDC lay in front with 47 seats. The Zanu PF achieved so far 43 seats. The foment delay concerns the opposition, Mugabe can let the results falsify. The suspicion: Phantom voters would blow up the register of voters artificially.
Long queues before two polling stations supplied food for the rumours at the edge of an uninhabited property, where 8500 peoples had been registered as inhabitants entitled to vote. The electoral committee defended the delay with the reason that finally for the first time presidency -, parliament and local elections were at the same time held. Besides the results would have to be examined very exactly. Already on Sunday the opposition party had choose itself as a winner. Mugabe warned its opponent, a victory explanation equals an attempted coup. And it would not bear that. Typically dictatorship. but who digs others a pit, falls self in.
The autocratically governing Mugabe is supported by the safety forces. They rejected reproaches of the choice manipulation. Also it appeared and stressed in the nationally controlled daily paper Sunday Mail a ballot became it also in the case that no more of the candidates unites than 50 per cent of the voices on itself does not give this regulation prescribes the condition. But Mugabe turns out ever more under pressure. There are even rumours, the autocrat fled abroad. Because he was no more seen. But a government spokesman disclaimed however: “the president is further in control”. As one cannot cover the jets of the sun, so one cannot extinguish also the light of the truth.
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 10:52:45
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momdou ,you have been a little bit simplistic with your judgement on mugabe. mugabe like many other former african leaders, under estimate corperate west. the zimbabwe issue is unique ,in that mugabe left it too late to redistribute land. the western banks ,especially british banks has heavy vested interest in zimbabwe, that is why the britsih press were unrelentingly attacking mugabe left,right and centre. the lands must be redistributed ,not tomorrow ,but now.
why should zimbabwe be sanction on flimse grounds? how many african leaders over stay? why is mugabe so villified? there are countless books explaining the symantics at play. to me, mugabe should have redistributed land earleir and then he would have been a western villian sooner rather than this late. the mdc campamp shouldn't even dream of destroying mugabe's legacy. he over stayed true but that is not why he is been haranged and villified. if mdc wish to return backs land to white farmers ,there is a possibility of civil unrest. economically the country has been brought down on its knees, it is sad for africa, others can just criple us just with the flick of a finger. so terribly sad. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
Edited by - Santanfara on 02 Apr 2008 10:54:54 |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 11:50:46
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Santanfara,
thank you for pointing our the FACTS, the real problem here is that British Interest are at stake and so the British Press/ govt can harp/rant about anything.
ofcourse we as Africans shouldnt falls for this crap. if no single WHITE FARMER had been killed the situation in Zimbabwe would never have recieved such personal and high level British Govt. attention. Just down the border in South Africa, do you know how many blacks have been killed by WHITE South African Farmers between 1994 -2006!
It was the same stupid politics as during the Aparthied years when British Interest made the British govt forget Human Rights and vetoed UN Security Council Resolutions when Black School children where being shot dead by a racist govtment. If white school children were shots Apartheid would have been over years before.
i dont know how long you have been in the UK, but this whole turn of events started after PM Blair's Dev. Minister Claire Short said she was not comfortable with British Tax payers' money being paid 1000 of miles away to White Farmers in Africa.
the funds which were agreed at the end of the Rhodesian War, stop flowing and Mugabe went mad. I remember there was the War Vateran who used to call himself 'Hitler' in the last 1990s.
Mugabe might have been wrong for failing to maintain law and order but its not wrong to promote African interest and fight subtle neo-colonialism.
French NGO staff kidnapp black African todlers and look how cheaply Human Rights and Justice can be bought. imagine the reverse! If you follow African politic you will see what happened in the Comoros last week with France directly underminng the AU.
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 13:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by njucks
Mugabe might have been wrong for failing to maintain law and order but its not wrong to promote African interest and fight subtle neo-colonialism.
Right, njucks - you hit the nail right on the head. |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 13:49:18
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NJUCKS, THE REAL ISSUE HERE IS MONEY. i am conducting a course work on FDI's in africa at present and to my horror a britsih researcher unearth the involvement of banks in zimbabwes affairs. the book is title foreign companies and international investement in zimbabwe by D.G.CLARKE 1980 . foreign investemnt is aim at creating what d.g clarke refer to as '' a company government''. this is deep word with deep meanings. when a country is made ungovernable ,the vultures will circle and the people will reject their once true sons and history wil start doing injustice. dehumanising is a sytematic strategy the media has in its arsenal. when they unleash it at pressured leaders, hell is ready for you. no one feel sorry for you. african media houses need to strike a balance ,ofcourse we need good governance, we need the safety of the rule of law, but every thing in life comes at a cost. the media need to avoid reppeating what the western press are regojitating over and over .
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 13:50:47
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He is hero as well as living legendary ,no doubt and will not be squandering so easily (good or bad), And most blames of this human malfunction will be counts in book of the west. (A revenge)?
But if want be a realistic, he himself had being too hard in the last couple of the years.
so his legacy may littlebit be effected already.
Yes,No one can be loved from every one. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 14:18:18
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Mugabe might have been wrong for failing to maintain law and order but its not wrong to promote African interest and fight subtle neo-colonialism.
ITS ALL ABOUT GREED, HE THREW OUT THE WHITE FARMERS AND DID NOT DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THE AFRICAN FARMERS HE PROMISED LAND TO. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 14:45:55
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a -ha! finally.
mugabe's land grab was an initiative to promote his name into the folklore of african redeemers, to gain the votes of the nation, to ensure his place in the history books from the african perspective.
it was also, and MAINLY, an act of utter selfishness and greed in which the people who benefited were the party members and cronies and not the very people who were supposed to get their land back.
the land was fertile when run by the experienced professional white farmers.
it is now dead and barren, owned by fatcats and businessmen who farm nothing-which is why the real zimbabweans are starving.
it made him rich and his fellows rich, but he mainly got revenge on the white people, who despite being born in zimabawe, he does not see as zimbabweans.
he did not give a damn about the 750000 black people who lost their jobs,accommodation, their kids schoolfees, their clinics and medicines etc etc, those that worked on the farms.
it was purely political and economical manouevre , based on a justifiable premise of inequality but carried out in the wrong way for the wrong reasons and for the wrong people.
land redistribution needed careful planning and consultation so as not to create mass unemployment, destroy the agricultural capacity of the country and benefit the correct potion of the population.
HOW MANY OF THE ABOVE CAME TO PASS? NONE!
now the country is ruined and he is richer and his people are bankrupt.
So this whole orchestrated land grab was a disaster and a greed-based move carried out by a corrupt, greedy, megalomaniac tyrant.
I am fascinated to read above that some people actually believe Tsvangirai will just hand it all back!!! madness.
mandela pleaded with the white people who were leaving in 1994 to stay and pass their skills on to the black new generation of empowered workers, blue and white collar, and young professionals.
Mugabe, if he really gave a sh-t, would have transferred the land carefully and in time, so as to allow the incoming people to learn the extraordinarily complicated skills of managing vast technologically based farms , the modern cultivation of all the kinds of produce etc etc. then the incomers could keep the farms and their income going, they could provide the food for the country. they could earn a living and teach their kids to sustain the industry. the farming exodus of this particular inmtelligence is lost. the farms are dead. the food has gone. the money has gone. it will take billions to get them running properly again.
so please do not tell me that mugabe did all of this beacuse he wanted to make his people's lot a better one. they never got the land. his buddies did.
look see the evidence.
acalculated effort to enrich the party faithful. a crime against humanity.
GREED. |
Edited by - lurker on 02 Apr 2008 14:47:21 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 19:06:09
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utter nonsense . the country became backrupt because it was sanctioned. again the white farmers were growing more tobbaco than food crop. don't mislead people. how did those farmers get the lands in the first place? was that an equatable way to get land by drawing colonial bounderies. who named the whole zimbabwe after himself? stop messing about.
mugabe was deceieved into believing that the deal aggreed with the european union to redistribute lands or compensate former land owners will work out. for decades nothing happen. why wouldn't he take drastic measures to gain back the lands unjustifiably acquired by former colonial rulers?
the corruption, that is big topic. who isn't corrupt? there are different types of corruption. exploitation is the biggesst ever type of cooruption. what did the white rulers did before independence? care to talk about that. what happen to mugabe when he was imprison for years and his son died yet they refuse to allow him to attend the burial. yes many things have mixed up along the years but land redistribution or no land redistribution mugabe is a galant african who fought to end colonialism. that my dear you cannot tarnish. as for crime against humanity ,well ,just look arround you,there are many guilty high profile of them all over the place. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 19:18:22
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well, i am just going to have to beg to differ with you on this, my friend. youa re an apologist for a murderer. youa re so blinded by your hatred for what has been done to africa that you lionise a corrupt crook, a malicious murderer, an ingenious trickster and a hopeless liar. this attitude is what we are discussing on the other thread. your attitude is a barrier to africa's progress cos you are locked in the past, whinging about your perceived version of events and unable to take any of the blame and protecting the architects of your stunted development i.e. your corrupt leaders. your argument reminds me of an angry child who always looks to answer a hurtful criticism by making an attack on the criticiser, instead of looking to see if there is any value in the criticism. you have chosen to blame the british and the white farmers for the totality of the current problem. you call a murderous tyrant gallant. i do not think the dead and starving zimbabweans would use that particular adjective. you say there is corruption everywhere. SO WHAT?
that fact does not make his any more excusable or better than any body else's version.
until people like you, Santa, who are wise and intelligent, take your blinkers of blame off, whether they be justified or not, you will live in the past, you cannot progress, you cannot ensure a viable future for your children. you are reactive and not proactive. no longer good enough , i am afraid. you need to make changes and stop whinging.
doubtless, lots of your points are valid, but they are not going to get your continent anywhere until you shoulder some responsibility for affecting change, for some kind of reconciliation and forgiveness. be bigger than your foes.hatred never got anybody anywhere.
by the way, i lived there when this all started and i know what it was like for both sides there. you repeat press cuttings of your favoured commentators and media, presumably without ever having set foot in that country. if you had, then you would surely know that what i have said is not exactly "utter rubbish" which are angry words from you, normally such a placid and considered commentator. |
Edited by - lurker on 02 Apr 2008 20:01:04 |
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:04:30
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| My opinion is that rulers of African countries and rulers every where in the world need to know that staying too long in power can lead to erosion of trust and endanger their good work if they did any in the first place, Mugabe was a hero indeed and stood to defend the rights of his people , when that phase passed away he was left to tackle the daily problems of governance and this invariably involves tackling issues of international and national dimensions. He needed to solve the problems and where they become tacky move on to dealing with issues that would lead to solving the countries urgent and strategic needs. Staying stock on to difficult matters which I liken to a truck stuck in muddy waters may mean staying for too long solving such affairs and the resultant blame game of opponents and detractors which he/she is bound to have along the way. In Mugabe's case he took on the mighty western backed white settlers who had invested so heavily in that country and seized assets belonging them ; this attracted some high and mighty reactions from their supporters and what did he have to fall back on to but African solidarity which in my unconsidered judgment is paper tiger. The South African and Mandela's approach of conciliatory mode was I daresay better. It is true that The settlers unlawfully acquired the lands that Mugabe took from them but they developed them to huge money churning establishments and simply taking them from the owners though in Mugabe's opinion unlawful ones , he needed to be able to get the farms to continue churning the wealth and keep the workers on those farms engaged in gainful employment otherwise and as it turned out later. that would be an exercise in futility. What the people of Zimbabwe needed before was liberator and now that he came he did not have to send them back to much more suffering than they had endured from the former rulers. We can blame the west for all our woes in the Third World but our leaders need to know what load they can carry for us as no one is to blame for the failures in these matters but them. In Mugabe's case I suggest he over stayed and tried to hang on to the seat of power using the taking over of the farms and other settler based industries to appease his followers which inevitably failed to come to fruition.Twenty eight years in power was more than enough for him to do something meaningful for his country , what is evident is that he failed to get them a better deal, what he had to show for this is country with a n extraordinary inflation rate , food shortages and investors scared away by his hardliner stance. |
Edited by - kaanibaa on 02 Apr 2008 20:19:05 |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:50:26
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Good debate. Both sides have points.
I was in Zimbabwe some years ago and had many questions unanswered. My Driver, who was an independence war veteran had many issues to talk about from land to jobs to distribution of wealth.
Its all just too muddy to understand.
I also noted the few Africans who could afford to live in Harare and by 5.00pm, Harare is a ghost town. Very expensive by all standards but well planned city, wide boulevards and high rise buildings that can challenge many western cities.
Interestztingly, to make an international call, i had to go to the Post Office and get connected by an Operator just like our Cable and Wireless in the Gambia during colonial times. Zimbabwe has two telephone systems, one that is working just like in Europe and for those who have such lines, a call to that country is very cheap. The other milks your phone card in a second. Probably an analogue system.
I like the weather, very cold but good enough to support growing of fruits and vegetable, good rainfall. In the shops, especially in downtown harare, prices were too prohibitive by Gambian standards. In the end, the only souvenir i could buy were Xhosa and Zulu music tapes to which i still stretch my legs to the beat.
Zimbabwe's story is replicated all over Africa, rich, full of promise but at the same time a liability to her people. The sense of patriotism to one's country needs reawakening in Africa. Look at Sierra leone,Liberia, Nigeria, Congo,Angola, Mozambique. All endowed with resources, but have infact become more dependent "aid" each year. Like Youssou Ndour said: NIT KU KNEUL, DAFA BOOGA NGOO RAY ( The black man likes to govern for too long). Every African wants to be president, and president for life.
Mugabe should learn that to succeed, is to build capacity around him for others to contribute to nation buliding. If he thinks that he is the only capable person to rectify the wrongs of colonialism, then he has wasted 28 years without a core critical mass of people in his country.
His support to Mandela (ANC) and to Tabo Mbeki in particular who was based in his country as head of propaganda radio ( Radio Free Africa, i believe), makes it difficult for South Africa to go against him. One good turn deserves another. The same goes for Namibia, Angola. He made many independent fighters comfortable in Zimbabwe.
In the end, Mugabe's fate is very much like that of Kwamme Nkrummah and unfortunately, the former might suffer the same set backs. Mugabe's "believe" that he is the African Moses, well positioned to lead his people(Africans), reminds me of Nkrummah who on Ghana's independence said "...Ghana's independence is meaningless without the total emancipation of the African continent... Long live the African Inter-continental Government that must be...."
Let the debate flow. I am liking it. |
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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MADIBA
United Kingdom
1275 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 22:30:32
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Mugabe is a HERO to Most of the AFRICANS and those against IMPERIALISM.
It is true he like , Bongo, Eyadema, Conte etc overstayed or stayed too long in power which is bad for Africa. But who is talking? Britain. Why? Becos she has been told to cease MILKING. She got upset as the world has come to an END. She thinks she owns Zimbabwe and her people.No! no!. Britain can't still apologise for her part in the most heinous crime, of slavery and colonialism. Who asked them to come in the first place? Mugabe's 'Greed' today has been preceeded by a greater GREED of slavery and colonialism.
Britain and her allies are known to cry foul anywhere their interest lies. The day the Saudis cease to buy arms from her HELL will break loose again.
Mugabe has my BACKING if you ask me, for re-distibuting the land to its rightful owners. Even if they starve its their birthright.
Sekou Toure of blessed memory is quoted to have said , HE PREFERS TO BE POOR AND LIVE IN LIBERTY RATHER THAN BE WEALTHY IN BONDAGE.
Africans should be ALLOWED to decide their DESTINY.
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 00:15:13
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Madiba
I rememeber the Referendum of independence. Guinea i believe was the only country to say no. In the end, even old telephone boxes were removed from the country by the French. Even plates spoons and forks. Guinea was virtually taken back 300 years.
Seku shared the same ideals with Nkrumma, and it was not suprising that when he was overthrown, he died in exile in Guniea.Seku wanted an invasion force into Ghana but Nkrummah did not like the potential blood shed.
My take on issues is that Mugabe should now retire from politics. He should have built a core of people who share his ideas over the years to have made an easy transition. For now a smooth transition is not likely. Well it already is bad.
You see independence means being master of one's destiny. a Programme of Rectification should have begun almost immediately. That was the best time to do so. Hit the iron whilst its hot. Right now the iron is cold and difficult to mold.
Thats what Seku did in 1960. In the end, even countries that sided with France were not better off than Guinea who went alone.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” |
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