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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 18:59:09
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well, if you believe the bbc, mugabe is being offered a deal to step down "gracefully". if so, there will be president tsvangirai. i wonder if the old b-stard will take this chance to get out with his billions intact and his rotten face "saved". as ever, if this were to happen, people literally get away with murder.
don't you just love politics!
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 19:07:37
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Lurker :- this thread is not about the british desires for landetc etc, true or not.. this is about an african nation being destroyed by an african leader while other african nations sit and watch.
BornAfrican: - this is indeed an African nation being destroyed by an African leader just like many African countries were and are still being destroyed by their leaders. You can never eradicate Britain out of the equation here. We have seen other nations destroying their people and are still being supported by the British government. I was in Nigeria, I saw what the Nigerian government is doing to people in states where the oil is coming from. Britain is dealing with countries like that. They never denounce those countries, because they are getting what they want.
Lurker :- the question of european motives regarding the outcome is another issue. the thread here is about an african nation disintegrating.
BornAfrican:- that is very true, its about an African country disintegrating, just like many others have disintegrated and others are going to. There has been genocide going on in Dafur for ages, we only hear loud talk from so-call powerful leaders and the useless African leaders. Was it not the same that happened in Rwanda. I am pointing to you that the what has the west got to talk about when they don’t care about the common African.
Lurker:- who is worse than mugabe, BornAfrican?
are you proud of him? he has destroyed most of the desirable resources, or stolen them, or used them as collateral for china and libya to get a foothold in the country.
BornAfrican:- who is worse than Mugabe you ask? Are you sleeping? Can’t you see what is going on in some African countries? Can’t you see General Bashir wiping out a certain tribe in Sudan for ages? Can’t you see African leaders depriving their subjects of education? Any leader that deprives his/her citizens of education is the worse thing that god has ever created. Africa is full of such leaders. You only know about Mugabe, because he’s the only one whose face is filling television screens in the West today.
I am not proud of Mugabe, infact I am not proud of any African leader. You talk of stolen money, how many African leaders have accounts in the West today especially in Switzerland? African leaders bring their stolen properties to the West not to China or Libya.
Lurker:- what is the motivation of china and libya, in his so-called "look-east" policy? they are in it for what they can get, but i do not hear anyone grumbling about them, cos they did not invade iraq or afghanistan for oil or whatever.
BornAfrican:- for over 400 years, the west was in Africa for what it can get. China has done more good to Africa than West, in my view. All the West did in Africa was divide Africans and enslave them, which unfortunately continues to be the case in present day Africa.
Lurker: - there is no more wheat as there are no more farmers. there is no wildlife, so ther is no tourism. the minerals and ores are already sold to the east. the land is fallow and rotting. what exactly is left.
BornAfrican: - Mugabe has taken the land. The west would never want to see mugabe put that land to use. That’s why Zimbabwe is being strangled economically, so that the west can justify what they are doing. The minerals and ores are being sold to the East. You are right. If Africa’s wealth is sold to the East, it’s a crime but the west can walk in and get it willy-nilly.
Lurker: - hey? do you think tsvangirai is going to reverse the land distribution that mugabe gave to his cronies?do you think he is going to invite the british to have what they had? that whole rationale is specious, but it is not relevant to this thread, either way.
BornAfrican:- Lurker, you have to realise that Mugabe was once Mugabe’s friend. He was killing black Zimbabweans then. Who gave a damn? No one did. Once he turned against British farmers, he was in trouble, and so was the ordinary Zimbabwean. Tsvangirai Morgan, won’t be at loggerhead with the west as long as he serves their interest. You have to realise that Southern Africa is one of the most sought after places in the African continent by Western countries.
Lurker:- the problem here is that people deflect away from the tyranny of this man and drag everyone and the kitchen sink inot this debate.
fact - mugabe is a killer
fact - mugabe rigs elections
fact- mugabe destroyed zimbabwe
fact-mugabe does not care for his people
fact - mugabe is one of the richest men in the world
fact- he murdered 30000 ndebeles
fact - he is corrupt
fact- all african nations have fiddled while zimbabwe burned and their people, also africans, died like flies.
BornAfrican:- its true, you can put all the list together and it all describe Mugabe, but I can tell you as an African, I have seen a lot of those attributes in many other African leaders. Are people not disappearing in the Gambia just like that never to be seen?
Mugabe is corrupt, that’s true. All African leaders are corrupt. Tell me one you think is not corrupt.
Lurker: - so when will other african nations finally condemn this man, once their hero, and now their own nemesis?
shame on them.
BornAfrican:- African countries are powerless to tackle their own internal problems, not mentioning those beyond their borders. Africa’s economic hardship, with AIDS and Malaria has paralysed individual governments to even provide food for their citizens.
Shame on those countries who up till now continue to refuse to create a level economic playground for Africa where there is free and fair trading, which will enable us Africans to strengthen our economies, get rid of leaders like Mugabe and even prevent the coming into power of wicked leaders like we see in the whole of Africa today[/quote]
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 19:15:08
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why use ugly language here. you sound so angry.
i am an african, and i care about Afria a lot. i don't need leaders like Mugabe and other leaders we have today, but one thing i know is that only wild rants are coming from Britain, but they don't give a damn about Zimbabweans.
you won't know this, because who feels it knows it.
just continue to live in fantasy about the West caring for Zimbabweans.
there are many African leaders whose millions are stacked up in European banks. i'm sure mugabe's will increment the stack. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 19:33:30
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i like your answers.
you deal rationally with my points.
the shame is that you are an african who cares, but you find reasons of politics, history and economics that make excuses for the empowered africans not to care.
when did the intelligent carers like you lose their way when they became empowered?
why is ok to be so fatalistic and to say, well, we africans cannot do anything while this and as long as this..?
surely, standing up and not accepting the status quo is the first step in the rebirth of the continent?
accountability for their own actions. stop blaming . stop dwelling on the iniquitous past. start changing mentalities. start proactive directions in dealing with all these african despots that you talk about.
show that you are doing something internally and others will join the bandwagon. humans always go with the flow if they think they are looking good. a groundswell of decency can be created.
surely, by making a stand against these african hoodlums, the people are enfranchised and liberated, the door is closed for otheres to follow their pathways, democracy can be true and effective, economies can be improved and the african nations can stand up and demand the fair trade and economic basis that they clamour for and be taken seriously.Africa has to grow up. it is , for a million reasons, an unruly teenager.
while every penny is stolen from every avenue of help, no-one ever takes the situaion further or seriously.
the start has to be made from within. blame makes for no change and a miserable future.
by the way, you can enslave a country physically ir you can enslave it economically. china has enslaved a lot of africa economically already. you wait and see the repercussions of this slavery in the next 25 years |
Edited by - lurker on 01 Apr 2008 19:39:52 |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 19:48:26
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| Great debate..nothing to add, except my hope for a peaceful solution. |
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 03:25:57
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Lurker: - i like your answers.
you deal rationally with my points.
BornAfrican:- thank you lurker. I want to see a change in Zimbabwe. I want to see a change in Africa. But I want to see a change that will lay a foundation for long term positive outcomes for Africa and her citizens. I know a lot about mugabe before the “farmers” saga started. Why is everyone condemning him today when they didn’t before his land seizure? This is what annoys me with Western governments when they talk about some despots. They create them and impose them on people. This is the situation in Africa. I fully appreciate the ordinary folk in the streets of London calling for justice in Zimbabwe, but once the Gordon Browns or the David Millibands start drooling over it, it just blow me into pieces. They knew their policies towards Zimbabwe and her people when Mugabe was still evil to his people, but didn’t hurt their interests then. Then, them and their predecessors didn’t talk.
Lurker: - the shame is that you are an african who cares, but you find reasons of politics, history and economics that make excuses for the empowered africans not to care.
when did the intelligent carers like you lose their way when they became empowered?
BornAfrican:-politics, economics and history make us who we are. Whether one is European, Asian, African or American, it’s your history, your politics and your economy that makes you who you are. 98% of Africa’s problems lie in her history. We must talk about the past to build a future. The west has to blame the first and world wars for some of the problems that exist in Europe today, but these blames are put in such a way that they are a warning to the citizens of Europe that war will only destroy them, and that they have to learn from their past so that they won’t commit mistakes like their recent ancestors did. I care about Africa a lot, and I swear, nothing on this earth will make me loose my way with regards to stuff concerning Africa. It’s true we have seen lots of, as you put it; “carers” in Africa. They have the right ideas on paper, but once they get the power, they get corrupted and start “turning red into blue”. Africa is a continent full of opportunists. Because we talk about the economics and the politics, it scares the living daylight out of those monster leaders, so they give themselves excuses to do what they want. The Zimbabweans spoke about the politics and the economics and Mugabe sent his soldiers to quieten them, so did the Kenyans speak and paramilitary forces were ordered to massacre them, and so did those same cries echoed in the streets of Banjul when the poor students were murdered by the people who were meant to protect them.
There are people who care about Africa, and they will never sway come what ever. I am sure I am one of them. And the leaders who use our cry for an excuse to commit crimes against us, surely, there is a place for them in this world as a memory, and history for that matter, and so they will be judged.
Lurker: - why is ok to be so fatalistic and to say, well, we africans cannot do anything while this and as long as this..?
surely, standing up and not accepting the status quo is the first step in the rebirth of the continent?
BornAfrican: - You are so right, standing up to situations is the best way to change them. So are Zimbabweans doing. But after changes take place in Africa do you know what happens? Witch hunt. I can promise you that if Morgan wins in Zimbabwe, he will go for all those mugabe supporters rather than solving the immediate problem. And this will breed more problems. What happened in Kenya? Arab Moi was one of the most corrupt leaders the world has seen. When Kibaki came to power, everyone thought he was the solution, but rather than dealing with the economic situations, his policies like else where in Africa were contaminated with tribal sentiments.
Africa cannot do things on her own. The west did not get where it is today on her own. Support came from other parts of the world. If support has to come to Africa, it has to be support based on justice and not support that will only come to safeguard western interests. I promise you, then we will talk about another kind of Africa, not the one we see today ruled by monsters.
Lurker:- accountability for their own actions. stop blaming . stop dwelling on the iniquitous past. start changing mentalities. start proactive directions in dealing with all these african despots that you talk about.
show that you are doing something internally and others will join the bandwagon. humans always go with the flow if they think they are looking good. a groundswell of decency can be created.
BornAfrican: -
Lurker, the world is a theatre. We humans are the actors and actresses. We create history and we always have to dwell on history to pave way into a future. The economic depression of the 1930s is used as a teacher to avoid situations like that in the future. It’s true, we have to start changing mentalities, but I can tell you what happened to Africa, cannot befall anyone and you forget about it. The Jews today hold on to the history of Auschwitz which is still a hot debate in Europe today. The Jews used their past to their advantage. So condemning Africans to talk and blame their past is not right. I believe, we should use our past, as an advantage to get to where we ought to be.
Lurker: - surely, by making a stand against these african hoodlums, the people are enfranchised and liberated, the door is closed for otheres to follow their pathways, democracy can be true and effective, economies can be improved and the african nations can stand up and demand the fair trade and economic basis that they clamour for and be taken seriously.Africa has to grow up. it is , for a million reasons, an unruly teenager.
BornAfrican:- we need to stand against these leaders. This is happening everywhere. The relationship between African leaders and vote rigging is like a husband and a wife. Ballots don’t get them out, you have to blow their brains out; this of course no one wants. No rational person wants to see your streets littered with bodies. Our leaders are the greatest obstacle to our development but we will change that god willing. The young generation of Africans is being awaken by what they see on television. The winds of change are blowing but those changes will only be good for us if they are not used as an avenue for settling old scores with enemies.
Lurker: -while every penny is stolen from every avenue of help, no-one ever takes the situaion further or seriously.
the start has to be made from within. blame makes for no change and a miserable future.
by the way, you can enslave a country physically ir you can enslave it economically. china has enslaved a lot of africa economically already. you wait and see the repercussions of this slavery in the next 25 years.
BornAfrican: - if the western leaders truly want to help Africa and Africans, the will stop those African leaders who have their accounts in the western banks. African leaders cash in Europe is in billions of pounds. If they can track so-called terrorist accounts, why can’t they track the accounts of “alquaeda” African leaders. I called them alquaeda because African leaders are the greatest terrorists. They cling on to power by terrorising their subjects.
Its true, you can enslave a country physically if you can enslave it economically. I challenge you to read a book written by Ali A Mazrui, by the title A Triple Heritage, The Africans.
You will see how much damage the west has done in Africa. From the Berlin conference, when rulers and pencils were used to divide Africa based on western economic interests, Africa was almost destroyed beyond repairs. China unfortunately is being blamed today for its unfair trade with African countries. I sometimes wonder if the Westerners take us Africans as fools. Who supported the diamond wars all over Africa? Who supported UNITA rebels in Angola? Who is sponsoring the war in DRC? who came to Africa to re structure it socio-economically, thereby implementing a certain style of governance? The questions are numerous, and indeed they are important questions. Unless we know the answers to these questions, we can forgive, and pave a way into a prosperous future. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 14:48:07
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i am loving this debate, just a few words on some sentences
"BornAfrican: - if the western leaders truly want to help Africa and Africans, the will stop those African leaders who have their accounts in the western banks. African leaders cash in Europe is in billions of pounds. If they can track so-called terrorist accounts, why can’t they track the accounts of “alquaeda” African leaders. I called them alquaeda because African leaders are the greatest terrorists. They cling on to power by terrorising their subjects."
Once again that would be the West/Europeans/Americans interfering in African politics. Secondly, am I wrong but did not Idi Amin, live in an Arab country, people forget about that, his money was there.
Lets remember when they got in power they were okay, but the forget to hand over to another leader. Mugabe is old school and his atitude will not change, the change will come from the people around him. For some people they are playing for time and blaming Mugabe.
Lurker: - surely, by making a stand against these african hoodlums, the people are enfranchised and liberated, the door is closed for otheres to follow their pathways, democracy can be true and effective, economies can be improved and the african nations can stand up and demand the fair trade and economic basis that they clamour for and be taken seriously.Africa has to grow up. it is , for a million reasons, an unruly teenager. well said, the people who allow the teenager to be unruly have guilt on their hands.
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BornAfrican
United Kingdom
119 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 15:34:27
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Jambo,
its good to know u enjoying the debate between myself and Lurker. I am one of the new generation of Africans who want to effect changes, and i believe we can do it, but we can only do it while we are within Africa. i wasn't on this earth when mugabe came to power 28 years ago, but i made it an obligation not to only condemn him but find out reasons why he behaved how he did. i then dug into his and zimbabwe's history.
Its true Idi Amin's ran to Saudi Arabia, where you claim his money is, i am not too convinced ( i am not denying it though), because even Saudi leaders don't have their monies in Arabia, instead their cash drives the economies in the West.
the west today is crying how evil mugabe is, but if he turns up at the doors of Swiss banks with millions of dollars, they won't want to know his story. they will open an account for him there and then. he will then end up in the Hague,then go to jail where he will rot and thats another cash bonus for the Swiss banks. this is what happens to African leaders' cash in Europe. you remember the Mobutus? one of the 5 richest people in the world during his time. where is his money? in the swiss banks. no african or african government can claim that money again. its a sad situation. europe has benefitted from africa, and she still continues to.
it is this kinda history we have to know so that when we hold the mantle of power, we won't commit such heinous crimes.
Jambo, this is our history and this is our politics. it is an obligation for you and i to parcel this history and give it to our children in its entirety. The changes begins with this generation, but it is the coming generations that will perfect it. |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:12:44
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again, some very salient points you raise. i just hope that this new generation has the guts to look forward instead of only backwards and take up this challenge. there can surely be no progress while the blame game continues ad nauseum.
as for money, mugabe was listed aas eighth richest in Time magazine about 12 years ago-he promptly banned its sale in Zimbabwe!
i hope he gets prosecuted, but he won't, i fear. he will continue to live off his untold billions, garnered from his nation's coffers til he dies, having literally got away with murder.
If the world still prosecutes 100 yr old nazis, why should mugabe be immune?
Mugabe still harbours Mengistu in a house down the road from where i used to live when i was there, and the world never tried to reclaim him and prosecute him. these african dictators look after their own kind in return for money and favours. Thus Mugabe will survive as he ahas allowed Mengistu so to do, and as Saudi and the Sheraton ther allowed Amin to live out his last years unpunished.
i have a question.
Why does africa allow evil leaders to go unpunished?
I guess it is all corruption and proteksia, but as long as the young see this pattern as a model for life, they will acept it and adopt it and aspire to it.
you have to hope that evolution of the continent socially and morally and economically will eventually stop this cylce.
Bring on the newer, enlightened generation. Those educated abroad who return to their motherland and can teach and impart their wisdom. Empower African women. Stop this reliance on aid and learn to fend for themselves and become self-sufficient.
You ahve to stop the corruption first and the greed.
Nothing will progress until that is dealt with.
The West will continue to treat Africa as a teenager who will take bribes until it grows up. That comes from within and not from without.
A very hard learning curve. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 17:00:47
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BORNAFRICAN, i ask this question, would you trust africans to try another african in court.
Look at the Hague and the ex president of Liberia, what a farce. No african president is brought to justice NONE. look at other nations it is all about FACE and manners. Within closed doors african will condemn each other, but to the outside world they will not.
Of course Mugabe could have been brought to justice long time ago, all the despots could have, but for Africans to look outside their continent is to pass the blame.
AFRICANS leaders should be tried by AFRICAN LEADERS, a jury of their PEERS.
LURKER you have said it all You ahve to stop the corruption first and the greed.
Nothing will progress until that is dealt with.
The West will continue to treat Africa as a teenager who will take bribes until it grows up. That comes from within and not from without.
A very hard learning curve. "
HERE IS AN IDEA, all concerned people get involved in the political scene, lobby the MEP/MP/UN/World bank and other interested parties to stay out of african business. BUT BY the same token, LOBBY AFRICAN LEADERS NOT TO BE ASKING OUTSIDE COUNTRIES FOR HELP AND TO STOP SELLING OFF THEIR LAND.
Look at how much hold CHINA HAS, africa will close the door on europe and the west and open it to the East and that will bring its own problems.
SO THE BUCK STOPS WITH YOU BORNAFRICAN AND LURKER, IF YOU WANT CHANGE, BE THE CHANGE
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