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Nyarikangbanna
United Kingdom
1382 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jan 2008 : 17:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ylowe
Nyari,
All that i am trying to say is that the change wasn't necessary and it send the wrong message and it might have been politically motivated as mentioned by kayjatta. The gambia belongs to all gambians regardless of tribe.
i am wolof but i can assure you that you dont speak better mandinka than i do. i can sit in a group of mandinka speaking you wouldn't recognise that am not mandinka and plus am married to a mandinka. i am the new paradigm who doesn't see tribe but there are some issues that we need to talk about. Jawara was not tribalist and plus he got no choice to exclude other tribes cause they will resist or possibly take him out of power just like yahya did. When the message got to jawara about the three M's and he did not take it seriously in fact he made a joke about and that how mature he is. Tribalism does exist and am fortunate enough to see it from both angles the wolof angle and the mandingo angle.
Ylowe, thanks for the posting. As you may notice in my postings, I am not incline to chip into the substantive debate for reasons hilighted above. All am trying to do is dispel the notion that Mandinkas under Jawara were cruel and facist oppressors. I think that is nonsense.
Also, I think that 'M' jibe you referred to could be considered abhorrent and unacceptable depending on what context it was said. It is common for people to tease each others tribe in the gambia but in a jovial way and with humur. If it was said in that sense then I think sacking would be an excessive penalty but if it was said to stir tribal hatred, then he should be sacked. When Roy Kilroy-Silk, a former British Member of European Parliament, made a racial and Islamophobic comment in a British Tv Progamme, he was sacked forthwith. I see no difference here if the 'M' Jibe was derogatory and could be seen by a reasonable man as intended to stir tribal hatred.
I have also investigated the Radio Gambia newscast issue and what I found was that it was done at a time when Radio Gambia was undergoing a major transformation and that the changes were underpinned by a legitimate public policy rather than been influenced by Dr. Saho's Whims and caprices. Whether that policy was itself a good one is a matter of opinion as government policies never go on to satisfy everybody. But one thing is clear, if the size of the mandingo tribe was the only factor as you implied earlier then I think the Fula rather than the Wollof newscast would have been placed third after mandinka since the Fulas are the second largest ethnic group in the Gambia.
Look, I am a pure Mandinka and I am proud of it but My Parents have never said to me 'you are better than people of this group or that group because you are Mandinka'. So, why would certain people think they have the right to give my tribe that nasty brand called tribalism purely for cheap political purposes? I think this is unacceptable.
I apologise to anybody who might be offended by any thing I said here
Thanks Ylowe and all other contributors and readers.
Rest my case. |
I do not oppose unity but I oppose dumb union. |
Edited by - Nyarikangbanna on 01 Jan 2008 18:05:52 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 00:56:53
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| nyari, you made your point very clear. i am writting from similar angle. my step dad was an ncp mp and during those days serif dibba was branded a tribalist because the guy like lalo keba so much ,thats the only music he mostly listen to and he critise jawara on some uncomfortable issues. but the problem is ,serif's wife is fula .former miss Gambia if i am not mistaken.the real dividers in the gambia are there and they are sneaky and manipulative. they are not your usual suspect,people hardly take notice of them. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
Edited by - Santanfara on 02 Jan 2008 00:58:37 |
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concort
365 Posts |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 10:58:02
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| concort,thanks for this link.i knew the snake will come out fighting. he arrogantly fail to pay any respect to late Dr Saho .his personal problem with Dr Manneh is none of our business but typical samsideen sarr trying his best to be important. who the hell is he to verify Dr Manneh's doctorate ? can you believe that.the debate has just started. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 11:02:05
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Hmm, so no positives come out if it comes a tribalism site
( COATING POLITIC)in our society's?
I may run for cover here since i don't real know about the roots of the man and his political demonstration , but i think its only sad that it is bonding with politics here but it exist even if it is a little.
It is a African nature, the appraised in the case of Kenya is nor other optics than most African society, we mostly waits for too long for seeing it coming while we know it is there.
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 11:41:06
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| mbay, our case is far different from that of kenya. sam in his quest to discredit and doubt my person ,he start taking my statements out of context as if other gambian were reading some thing else.i never said tribalism is good or should remain. he put that word in my mouth.i said every society have a problem with race,creed,colour,class,cast etc.this are all human problems ,i then went further to say that ,no one can elininate the problems of tribalism in totality .if he thinks he can solve the problem the childish way he is writting ,then let him be my guest.you can see the anger in his words and the evident arrogance. he discrdeit the character of a dead man,that i cannot accept .he lied about vital issues ,that i cannot accept. yet he wants to be taken seriously.as the bible state ,''throw the first stone when you are innocent of sin''. the man was an imcompentent colonel ,who will still be working with yahya if he was not booted out of favour ,yet he wish us to read his book and take him seriously. he also wish us to take his character seriously.hell no.he need to call Dr manneh and cry that he wasn't man enough to face him and sort out their differences.that is not what ground up gambians want to hear.tribalsim like racism ,have its promoters ,who i said,benefit from it.dividing and ruling create a source of income for rougue elements.he couldn't understand that. the British BNP benefit from fanning racial problems,the facist parties,the nrp's etc. yet that socalled educated sam couldn't see the point i was puting across.he will now be exposed for the celebrity soldier he was and his past will indeed be exposed as well.he said he has nothing to hide.well we shall see. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 13:32:08
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Uncle Suntou,
I keenly followed your debate with big Sam. I couldn’t participate because partly I don’t know most of those that are mentioned in the piece. Secondly, the topic is very sensitive and that doesn’t mean it cannot be discussed in public forums. For my part, I long since paved something meaningful about the sickening palaver -tribalism.
I am in agreement that tribalism exists just like racism does but observed in smaller scales in our Gambia. Looking at our Gambia, I bet to say, it is the “terri-kafoo/Dental-beldubeh” at work more than “tribalism.” The panorama has a tendency to ruin a society more than tribalism.
Now that your nephew kicked in the debate, I am going to mildly challenge you or Sam that our Gambia is rather infected with what I call “loyalty for loyalty sake.” That’s where the famous “mafia” loyalists will come in. That’s where the “terri-kafoo/Dental-beldubeh” will come in. That’s where tribe affiliations come in. That’s where clan affiliations come on.
Being from a Jola community myself, I am among those that openly challenged Uncle Mathew K Jallow that Yaya Jammeh is not a tribalist. I challenge anyone that thinks that the guy is, though there is some degree of leaning towards awarding of positions as observed. That’s the “terri-kafoo” or loyalty panorama at work.
To be continued…
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"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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Edited by - Dalton1 on 02 Jan 2008 13:41:48 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 21:20:25
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| dalton ,you are spot on. i narated similar statements. people go the tribal line for comfort and benefit. but sam's world don't revolve round reality. i see things from an accountant point of view. why the teri kafo's ,banjul mafia,? why the masonic lodges in banjul ? why the busuwah clicks ? we know about this unions. no tribe is spared from this unions. from akus right down to manjakos. but the gambia is very different . we are blessed. |
Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 00:31:48
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Uncle Suntou,
Thanks a lot. Just a point of observation. If Sam made an error, those of you debating should also not debate to the extent make such mistakes.
Here is a typical example of Gambian Unity; people of all tribes enjoying together.
http://www.gainako.com/My_Homepage_Files/Page3.html
Part II:
Looking at the two pieces written by big brother Sam, he did pulled a lot of facts in the articles, and at some point, his memorial encounters with Dr. Manneh came into to place to hurt the article. But my argument here is that like S.M.O Aka once noted in his essays, “The fact that a certain relative of yours drowned in sea doesn’t make your relatives not to drink sea water.” Excuse the quote if quoted wrong because it’s been 8 years since I read that book.
On the contrary, others got offended because the man in question (Dr. Manneh) is affiliated to a certain Gambian tribe. If Sam criticized Dr. Manneh like he did and even to the extent accuse him of tribalism because of his encounters with him (If really so), then his article would still be a trailblazer. But if based on his many encounters with many likes of Dr Manneh (as per life encounters with Sam), then that still might not call for a generalization on the issue. But one rotten potato like they said will spoil a whole bag of good ones.
I am too young to have followed politics then. I am thinking that Sam just needs twist the game a little bit, instead of generalizing it, he should individualize it to those that were suffering from the disease. That’s my take. During the tribalism debate at Gainako against Uncle Mathew, it was crowned on his head. The argument emanating from comments he made that others felt uncomfortable with, therefore decided to check him on it.
The opportunity that Sam has now as he continues on his pieces is to probably take a step and apologize to those offended, and then still address the issues he started. I honestly want to hear the parts that the Fulas contributed. If any of them were tribalistic, then their names should be called out as individuals and not seemingly generalized. That’s why I am appreciative of the pieces. On the other hand, many others in some forums are making a big noise out it.
Note: A neighbor who knows Sam from childhood told me he hailed from a very diverse family, especially his father. He have as many friends from his tribe, as he does from other tribes, like the thousands of us here and elsewhere.
See part 3 soon:
Let analyze his pieces as he carries.
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"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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Edited by - Dalton1 on 03 Jan 2008 01:13:48 |
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Dalton1
3485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 13:28:43
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Part 3
TRIBAL PRIDE IS OK
It is ok for people to have tribal pride just make sure it doesn’t make you extreme in hating or hurting others, thus far, we haven’t heard of any KKK in the Gambia. Tribe is a subset of the Gambia. Gambia is a subset of Africa. Africa is a subset of the world. The world a subset of God’s mercy. We are people first. Second, Africans. Third, Gambians. Fourth, belonging to tribes. Even among these individual tribes, for example the “Fulbe” has many other sub-branches to which we joking throw jokes or sometimes direct harsh comments.
I am sure every Gambian here or elsewhere has as many friends, if not more, from other tribes just like his own. People inter-marry. On that basis, who can we qualify to be a tribalist. Once they become friends, they do all the evil or good together. That’s why I call it “Demdal-weldubeh.” For the sake of our English speakers here, it is directly translated as “association.” The word is a Fula word, equally in meaning to “terri-kafoo.”
For example, the NIA director position has been held by Samba Bah, Barry, Kujabi, Marena, Pa Jallow, et cetera…
Now I ask did any of them used tribal lines to oppress a particular tribe? If really so, then that’s a case of concern because public office is not where you can munch on people, be they minorities or majorities. But are they acting alone or on behalf of their entire tribe?
To be continued…
Dalton |
"There is no god but Allah (SWT); and Muhammad (SAW)is His last messenger." shahadah. Fear & Worship Allah (SWT) Alone! (:
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kaanibaa
United Kingdom
1169 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 19:03:16
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| My own beef here ,is what tribe does a child whose father is tubab and mother wollof, belong? If one goes by the patriarchal mode the child would be tubab. \But the reality is that he/she would be of mixed blood and so cannot be truly belonging to any singular tribe per se.The child would be half cast or mulatto. My point here is that with the upsurge of inter tribal marriages we have in the current Gambia no one can claim to be purely from one tribe or other.Sam Sarr being born of wollof and Serere parentage cannot claim purely wollof or serere heritage Any way the excesses of certain named persons in his writings are to be condemned by him and all rightful minded people but the generalization of the tribalism talisman he wishes to fling into the face of the mandinka is unjustified .If Doctor X hurts you say Doctor X hurt you not the tribe X hurt you. This is the same approach taken by certain media outlets against Islam, where crazy people take crazy moves of terrorizing innocent people they call/brand them Islamic fanatics even though the majority of moslems would not hurt an ant let alone a fellow human being . Its a free world and if he choses to go that way let him ride on but then when ever he opens his mouth others would reply in the opposite view,gone are the days that the pen and its pusher are the bona fide of few,the web has thrown wide open the avenue for other people with opposite views to counter and swiftly too. Certainly we have enjoyed very good relation ships between the tribes and the unique example of that is joke cousin as commonly known as SANAW YA . In this relationship the fulla jokes with the mandinka,or jola or serere or vice versa with none taking offense. It also transcends tribe and regional settlements such that people take license under the unwritten covenants as I mentioned earlier to settle petty differences and even major ones .I want to believe that the communality we enjoyed in the Gambia far exceeds the differences we have had and so the said alleged dichotomy as portrayed by sam were to a very large extent negligible |
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 06:42:24
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I do subscribe to Sam Sarr's timely topic and good presentation of his views on the political, economic and social effects of tribalism in AFRICAN POLITICS. He assessed KENYA'S POLITICS and related those typical and dangerous scenarios with his personal experience or understanding that PHOBIA AND BAD LEGACY CONSTRUED UNDER GAMBIAN POLITICS.
There are some disagreements of his approach and others addressed it under different perspective but its a worthy exercise for diverse views. What makes Sam's masterpiece is that he mentioned the two tribes before we troubles escalates and things get out of hand in Kenya.
Refer to this integrated topic to re-analyse Sam's post and do justice to his views; MORE TRIBAL TROUBLE ! under http://www.gambia.dk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5176
Will come back as time permits! |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 08:44:56
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You know I tried to read Sam Sarr's paper on "Tribal Politics" in the Gambia, yet I mainly failed to see much rationality in its substance. Sam made several sweeping statements in his essay without substantiating them. For example, he argued that Jammeh's "...style of administration seem to be creating more enemies among the more dominant tribes than he bargains for". Contrary to this view I think Jammeh has enjoyed growing support from the larger ethnic groups in the Gambia over the years because like Jawara before him he co-opts some key elements and personalities from the larger ethnic groups.
Sam also talked about "...how Gambians...take it as a compliment when described as being Toubab...". Well as far as I know that remark is, in many cases, derogatory.
The author also mentioned the "solima" title that mandinka girls used on Wollof girls for their non-initiation into a femalehood rite widely practiced among Mandinkas. I wonder how widespread and significant these incidents are to require their elevation to a point of tribal conflict.Although I do not know what generation Sam is talking about, but I have lived most of my life in Serekunda since I was eleven, and before that my entire life in Niumi which also comprised of multitudes of different tribes some of whom like the Fulas do not practise FGM (my wife is Fula and I am Mandingo), yet I cannot attest to this claim.
The author made what seem to me another preposterous claim that "...it was not until the PPP in their quest for independence from the British started to spreading the inaccurate political message that the Wollofs had stolen their country...and kept them under suppression for centuries...". Could the auther provide any sources for this giant claim? The author talked about "Wollof hegemony" ? Hello!
Perhaps it will be relevant for the author to understand that the PPP initially represented the rural dwellers which included all the ethnic groups of the Gambia. The author's concept of Wollof seems to be limited to Banjul and Serekunda only.
I am afraid I will have to say that Sam's paper, which other wise could be a good paper, is charged with animosity against Drs. Manneh and Saho. I do not know about Dr. Saho who is believed to have obtained his doctorate from Germany , but Dr. Manneh's doctorate title I believe is kind of a street tile not of his own making. There used to be rumors that he bought his doctorate certificate in the U.S., but that is never substantiated. Here is a one time incident with Dr. Manneh elevated to the level of tribalism. Perhaps tribalism is in the eyes of the beholder in this case. I have heard someone narrated his encounter with Dr. Saja Taal also, then Parm. Sec. DOSE, who scornfully grawled at him (a Mandingo) 'yen lemalen sibeh' meaning how he hated Mandingos. Funny isn't it ? But these incidents are exceptions rather than the norm in Gambian society.
The author referenced the case of Kenyan conflict to make his point about the Gambia. Well Kenya's case is very important and perhaps generally symptomatic of the broad African tribal dilema, but we must not simply transpose the Kenyan question on the Gambian socio-political landscape. I have a Kenyan co-worker, a Kikuyu who is very supportive of Kibaki, but another Kenyan of my acquaintance , a Luo who is very angry about the sham election in Kenya even talk about dividing the country. That is how grave the Kenyan situation is, it breaks my heart.
Perhaps one has to understand the forces in the society in order to have some proper perspective of the nature of the conflict in that given society. All societies are divided into race, class, religion, gender, region, etc. There is actually very few homogenous societies. These societal divisions can either act to neutralize one another or reinforce one another. Where they neutralize one another, peace is usually maintained, but if they reinforce one another then conflict usually result.
In the Gambia for example, our tribal, religious, and economic divisions tends to have neutralized one another, so that our political (and other behavior) cut across tribe , religion, economic, and other affiliations.No particular group is completely marginalized to the point of feeling angry. This perhaps is the source of our stability. Now in kenya, this might not be the case. If you look at Kenyan political and economic life since independence, it has arguably been dominated predominantly by the Kikuyus to the almost total exclusion of others. So what might be happening in Kenya is that the economic disparity between the different tribes is reinforcing their ethnic divide thereby creating a conflict we are witnessing today. This is different from what obtain in the Gambia. The Gambia has a tradition of political and economic inclusiveness. I hope Jammeh does not destroy that tradition.
Thanks. |
Edited by - kayjatta on 04 Jan 2008 08:52:54 |
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Santanfara
3460 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 09:25:00
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thanks kay for that thoughtful reply.here is a proof that manneh did indeed have a PHD .SO what is sam's problem ? if he wasn't man enough to challenge manneh ,let him keep the gambia out his weakness.
Suntou,
Here is an article posted on the Africana studies department website of Rutgers University pertaining to Dr. Manneh. Money quote:
"The next person hired was Momodou Manneh, a PhD candidate in the Rutgers Political Science Department (the first Black to earn a PhD degree in that Department). Manneh, Bethel , and Weaver organized the introductory course to the Africana discipline (in 1971-72 the African and Afro-American Program on the three campuses in New Brunswick became Africana Studies) and team-taught.
Manneh returned home to the Gambia , West Africa and became the highest ranking member of the Gambian Parliament, second only to the president of the country."
The last sentence is definitely an exaggregation, but Dr. Manneh did pursue a PHD at Rutgers.
Here is a link to their site:
http://africanastudies.rutgers.edu/historyrutgers.html
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Surah- Ar-Rum 30-22
"And among His signs is the creation of heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge." Qu'ran
www.suntoumana.blogspot.com |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 09:35:41
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| Good job, Santa. |
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