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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 15:19:12
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Newfy and Abraham, these sites are very interesting and informative. I learned a lot of things I didn't know about male circumcision and its different methods.
Though I partly agree with Sab's arguments, it seems to me that for men (and their partners) a circumcision has more positive than negative aspects, e.g. for hygienic reasons. The more as modern medicine can reduce the risks, the pain and the trauma to a minimum. In FGM I can see no positive aspect at all, and as a puberty ritual (which I consider to be important for young people) you could take something else.
A little anecdote: A German friend of ours, age 42, decided to have a circumcision a couple of years ago. Not for religious reasons, but it was necessary to cut the frenulum, and on that occasion he had 'the whole package'. He said he had always been unhappy with the uncircumcised status because it looked so 'unorderly'. He is very content now.  |
Edited by - serenata on 13 Jun 2006 15:27:27 |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 20:26:27
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FGM is part of a dicussion under the title of Violence against women The United Nations has looked into this subject and will issue a report on it. It comes under the heading of traditional and cultural practices. It is considered to "against the lives of women" but women have no say in the matter. it is practiced in 28 countries in Africa. Some countries want to outlaw it but do not know where to start. It has no religious basis, but is definately tribal and geographical. I can get more information on this if people want it.
One of the ways they looked into having it stopped espcially for West African countries is to go the tribes/practioners. In gambia it is female blacksmiths and offer them another way of making a living.
Other places want to keep the ceremony but not have the cutting. Others want to educate the boys to accept a girl who has not been circumsied.
POINT OF INTEREST. right now in Uganda, some female students are subjected to FGM testing before they are accepted into university and given a scholarship. |
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sab
United Kingdom
912 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 21:24:54
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Greetings all,I have previously found the site below to have all the different terms in use to describe FGM/FGC - What do they mean?
www.unfpa.org/gender/practices2.htm
Jambo I am surprised to read about Uganda testing some students before being accepted into university. Plus the fact that Uganda is only around 16% Muslim. Is this a new entry rule & did you find it on a website?
regards, sab. |
The world would be a poorer place if it was peopled by children whose parents risked nothing in the cause of social justice, for fear of personal loss. (Joe Slovo - African revolutionary) |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 21:35:33
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| hi sab, it was made at a meeting i attend. it was a una meeting to update members and interested parties on violence against women, it was just one of the things covered. amongst others were, dowries, mutiple marriages, forced marriages. When i have time i will get the full statement for you and put it on the web site. you have to remember that FGM is not just muslim women, but it is african women of any relgion. FGM crosses all social, tribal, geographical, religions, financial and age groups in Africa, other continents were mentioned, such as parts of indian continent. |
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sab
United Kingdom
912 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 21:44:33
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thanks Jambo, look forward to it.
sab
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The world would be a poorer place if it was peopled by children whose parents risked nothing in the cause of social justice, for fear of personal loss. (Joe Slovo - African revolutionary) |
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Newfy
Western Samoa
462 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 22:25:21
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What is interesting about the WHO study is the documentation about the negative effects for women in labor and delivery. Many women have been subjected to extreme FGM which means all or part of their external genitalia have been stitched or narrowed together. (lousy comparsion but much like women having bound feet in anicent China).
In part due to this stitching and narrowing, there are very serious complications in childbirth which may lead to maternal death and death of the infant. In addition, what is needed is availablility of a caeasarean operation, however, many remote or isolated places, there is no hospital with the right tools or provider to provide the procedure. Many women die on their way to the hospital for emergency care.
Just an aside from what i have read sometimes nutritional stunting during childhood also contributes to a small pelvic area for delivery. Nutritional stunting is an indirect effect of malnutrition experienced in childhood. Malnutrition is indirectly related to economic status. The root causes you can see very clearly where this is going....
Although maternal and infant mortality rates have been reduced in many parts of the world, no one wants to see these women suffer so much and die so young from dangerous complications, heavy bleeding, a displaced placenta,etc, as well as complications with the fetus or newborn.
In my humble opinion, this may explain what makes some organizations focus on the female side of circumsion rather than the male side.
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 00:34:32
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posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 17:36:35
Also it causes problems in childbirth...... Dont think this is an issue for men?
Why would a man want his wife to have a lack of sexual feeling? I dont get it! Is it so she wont bother straying coz its no fun?!
Like most issues between men and women it seems to be to be about power and control.
Women need to be empowered to stand firm and say they wont let it happen to their daughters......not easy.......but this is how change will come.
gambiabev
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 22:13:15
i agree Islam has no gaps. when men convert into islam it is a requirement to have them circumcised to complete the convertion. when women convert for example this is not a requirement! i think the problem with FGM or whatever u want to call it is that those who advocate for it through Islam give only one reference which is not binding and is disputed by most scholars, hence it is not practised in the majority of islamic countries including old states like S. Arabia. i guess FGM has been discussed extensively in the Bantaba
njucks
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 16:26:03
I am not 100% certain of the reasons behind this procedure but I would cetainly like to know and try to understand. All I know is that what I have been told about it I dont agree with as I find it difficult to understand why any parent would like to put their children through this unneccesary pain and risk.
jankey
Well fellows,
I think we are missing the issue here.If JACOB was asked by God to circumcise his family as a form of convenant between HIM(God) and his prophet then why is it harmful today?.Read GENESIS:33:14-17.
Though it is scientifically disapproved,If the words of our religious books are truely Gods words and not just man made,then why is it harmful now and not yesterday?
Science has tought us somany things today like AIDS which our ancestors have never had b4.Don't you think there might be something responsible for these things?
Much more our circumcised great great grand mothers bore our great grand fathers and great grand mothers who lived 100 plus years more than we can ever dream of reaching now adays.Don't they have infant motality issues then?Why where they exposed to such harmful proceedures then and yet continue to do it?.If there was infant motality concerns,why not b4 but now? Despite science was not advanced then but they had their own scientists from whom we learnt to develop our science today.
Why were men/women of yesterday... stronger ,healthier and live longer lives than us today despite being circumcised?
I belief delicate issues like circumcission, needs thorough researches both scientific and religious to come to a lasting solution. Despite my son went,I will force my daughters to go through but will not also discourage them if they wants to go through it.
For example Fasting---
In christianity, every christian is surposed to fast forty days but some hungry ones will tell you it is optional or you can fast only by abstaining from food only but water you can have or just try from morning till mid-day....Jesus didn't do that so I don't know where that idea came from?
Also you come to Islam,some muslims will tell you if you vomit,your fast is broken ,while some will say you shouldn't even swallow your saliva,others will say when you have a doctor certificate that you cannot stay long without food, you are exempted.I don't know either where that message came from.Muhammad never said that to any body.
So sometimes our actions are influenced by people rather than God.
What did these two great prophets said about FGM/MGM?
Lets find that out....good night to all.You are Bantaba's wounderful Parliament and you teach me a lot.
I am learning
God be with you all
Mankajang Janyanfara
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Edited by - Janyanfara on 14 Jun 2006 00:57:02 |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 18:16:50
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Dear brother Janyanfara, I think what njucks said is right. I cannot imagine that it is God's will to mutilate women, so I beg you: Don't force your daughters to undergo the procedure. One day they will hate you for that. Islam, as far as I know, propagates a healthy lifestyle, and FGM is definitely not healthy. I am 100% sure that whoever invented it was not inspired by God. In Genesis chapter 33 I found nothing about circumcision, but 34 says: "14 And they said unto them, We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to one that is uncircumcised; for that were a reproach unto us 15 But in this will we consent unto you: If ye will be as we be, that every male of you be circumcised; 16 Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people. 17 But if ye will not hearken unto us, to be circumcised; then will we take our daughter, and we will be gone."
Jambo, you say "Other places want to keep the ceremony but not have the cutting". This sounds good because it only eliminates a dangerous cultural element but is not harming the culture as a whole. Where do they practise it? |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 18:48:36
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I went to a girls circumcision party...it was great(But I was SO sad for the little girl aged about 4)..lots of dancing and food....when a girl gets to puberty couldnt they do that without the cutting?
In uk girls and boys around 13 can get confirmed into the church. Couldnt the mosque give them a blessing for becoming an adult (perhaps around the time of a girls first period?) and then have the African party for the village?
It would still be a rite of passage, just without the dangers.
I would say to intelligent Gambia here PLEASE dont do this to your daughters. |
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njucks
Gambia
1131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 19:26:34
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in fact most of the people advocating for FGM to stop are saying just that. do the rites thing without the cutting. during these passage young people are taught a lot about life, manners, respect etc.
all these cutting is just poor understanding of religion and hence its cultural not based on islam. those who say its based on Islam always point to only one sources which is rejected in most islamic countries.
as i mentioned before just take a an example of a convert to Islam.
For a Male Convert, you're have to be circumised to complete the convertion into Islam.
For a female convert it is not a requirement.
in Saudi Arabia,Jordan, etc FGM is not part of the culture and is restricted to immigrant populations.
in this day of HIV, STD etc Africans of all people should avoid unneccesary surgery. |
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kondorong
Gambia
4380 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 21:22:46
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Circumcision pre-dates Islam in The Gambia. It is a matter of coincidence. Islam is not rigid on anything for as long as life is at stake. Islam values life more than anything. If for health reasons one cannot observe a TRADITION (SUNNAH) or AN OBLIGATION, one can be excused. The only thing not excused is prayer if you are sick. You can go up to the point of pretending you are actually praying if you cannot move physically. The other exception to physical prayer is when a woman is menstruating. She cannot pray nor visit the mosque.
So if there are genuine health reasons then the practice should be stopped. In addition, it is recommended that the doctor making the decision is a Muslim who understands Islam so that there is no bias in decision-making. This is why the first revelation in Islam is the word READ. We NEED TO SEEK KNOWLEDGE.
THERFORE IF WOMEN ARE BEING BARRED FROM EDUCATION, THEN THAT IS AGAINST THE FIRST WORD OF THE HOLY BOOK. EVEN THE PROHET WAS ASKED TO READ AND SEEK KNOWLEDGE BEFORE HE WAS APPOINTED A PROPHET. WHEN THE ANGEL SQUEEZED HIM AND ASK HIM TO READ HE REPLIED HOW COULD HE READ HE WAS NOT AN EDUCATED MAN.
HE CAME HOME AND NARRATED THIS TO HIS WIFE WHO HAD A LOT OF WISDOM. SHE TOOK OFF HER HEAD SCARF AND THE TREMBLING STOPPED. SHE THEN REALISED THAT THE PROPHET WAS RECEIVING REVELATION FROM AN ANGEL. WHENEVER SHE PUT IT BACK ON, THE ANGEL COMES BACK. SHE WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO WITNESS THE BEGINNING OF HIS APPOINTMENT AS PROPHET.
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 00:07:50
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Sister serenata and my dear sister Gambiabev,
Thank you so much for that piece of advise.I think some peole misunderstood my point here.I am not saying I will have my daughters circumcised.No way I will never do such a thing unless am sure it is to their best interest.Infact those who knew me well knows that I will never harm a soul much more my own.I am simply saying I will not stop them if they grow up (16years) and they still want to be circumcised.I belief in human rights and I will not in anyway discourage any who wants to practice what ever thing they cxhoose to practice.If my son wanted to become a Buddist despite knowing what faith am following,I will not stop him for maybe he knows why he wants to become Buddist.Like wise if my daughter choose to go in for FGM,despite all the risks medically involving it,yet still they want to go through for what ever reason,I will not stop them.
For now they are my responsibility and I decide for them,thats why I told my mother that no one should even tell them anything about FGM until am sure they are matured enough to understand what is involved.Then, I or their mum will tell them about it and why we chose not to subject them to it until they decide for themselves. If they still choose to go through it,fine but if they said no way,its no way.I even have their mother's concent onthis topic.I am neither in for or against FGM or MGM for I don't know what impact it has on either a female or male.I just argue on the net to learn more about it inother to be well equipped either for or against it. |
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gambiabev
United Kingdom
3091 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 07:46:39
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Janyanfara...... I agree...my daughter is 16 and most definately has her own mind on things. At the moment she is think of lip piercing and tatoos!!!  I try to sy as little as possible against it so that she will decide for herself NOT to do it!!!!
If a 16 year old wants FGM, if she is fully informed of all the facts, well there will be no persuading. But a well educated women should really see no reason FOR it. |
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 11:59:54
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hi there, sister serenata, some east african tribes are keen to do this. The ritual is part of their heritage and they want to keep that. I think some of the problem is that no "influential" person speaks out. One the main talking points is how men such kofi Anan, bishop of york, african Bishops do not make a statement. One example of a good effect of a man mentioning the subject was in north nigerian region. The governor spoke out against it and asked that it not be done, he also asked the boys not to ask for a "wife who was pure".
If a girl was not circumised competely most boys would not know, the main thing is that she is virginal. If it is done to stop girls from straying then the education should be on boys not to ask for it. it was all about education and perception. If she is circumsised = pure.
In the muslim religion they are asking the imams and marabouts to take up the campaign.
QUESTION. why do the women leaders not speak out. Gambia has so many female influentional minsters, heads of departments, they are silent on this subject they should speak out can anyone name one female ministers that has asked for the practice to stop.
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 19:27:46
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Thank you, Janyanfara and jambo! I am relieved to hear that I misunderstood you, Janyanfara, that you would not force your children, and I like your wise ideas very much.
jambo, the reason why women in Gambian politics don't talk about FGM is because it is made a big secret. Not even my husband likes to talk about FGM. It is a women's secret, and the topic seems to be absolutely taboo in the Gambian society. I fear if a politician talked about FGM in public, she would dig the grave for her career... |
Edited by - serenata on 16 Jun 2006 19:28:53 |
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