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lurker
509 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 14:51:19
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good afternoon esteemed members of the strange gathering of organisms that parades as human beings.
This week sees a row about racial intelligence, the usual nonsense in Iraq, the dalasi crawling back to 37 and england being k'od by russia - and probably by south africa in a few hours time.
Then we sit watching our goggleboxes on thursday night and watch the carnage unfold in karachi.
I cannot pretend to understan pakistani politics, although i think the yanks want her to prop up Musharraf, but am i alone in thinking the following?
Benazir bhutto has just committed an outrageous act of selfish, loathsome self-interest, with predictable outcomes and she should be strung up .
More than 120 families are without fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, because she decided to ignore all the advice she was given, and there was STACKS of it, and planted her self-indulgent backside in a crowd of 1/4 million bomb-fodder.
she was told that there was a huge chance of some kind of attack if she went ahead with this parade. Nevertheless , she declined to fly by helicopter to her destination, so that she could "feel the love" of these poor people .
Unsurprisingly, they struck, as predicted and missed her and got everyone else.
heer aide says that she was right to take the parade down mainstreet, and that it was the Govt's fault for not giving her VIP level protection!!!!!!! CRAP.
The only reason they missed her is because they could not get near enough to her for policemen and cars.
point is , she should not have been there in the first place.
She could have died. no martyrdom in that for her. So she risked her life and cost the lives of more than a hundred civilians to go round in her pope-mobile lapping up the plaudits.
If she truly cared about her people, she would never have done this.
the honourable thing to do is to resign and go back whence she cam, before the next attempt gets her and /or more of the population.
In the old days a japanese minister in the same position would have hara kiri'd himself. There are more ways of falling on your sword today.
I think she ought to choose one of the less lethal options and should resign after she pays for all the funerals.
Selfish, stupid, self-indulgent, careless, reckless, callous, cruel,
repugnant woman?
or not?
any thoughts out there in the crispness of this autumn day?
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jambo
3300 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 10:00:05
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lurker, say what on your mind, how do you know what she was advised, how do you know if she had listened there would not have been an attack, i believe the attack was on the bus.
as for her going back, why not if she is being used USA to open dialogue in that country, someone has to??, Pakistan cannot carry on they way it is. there had to be an acceptable face of the UN/Bush to have a conversation, and do you know why.
LAND AND NUCLEAR POWER, they are scared, think about it. why else go back. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 10:14:33
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| Bhutto has a right to seek political office in Pakistan, remember she was an elected prime minister and overthrown by force. The people who did this attack should be condemned , not Ms. Bhutto. She hasn't done anything wrong. She is very popular in Pakistan, but hated by extremits who are bent on killing her because of her pro-western and pro-American stance. They have failed to kill her; now their bombs went to kill hundreds of innocent people. That is the ugly face of terrorism! |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 10:58:09
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thanks for the political information, guys, which i take on board. as i said, i do not know much about their intricacies, and i f she wants to go back, fine.
her aide and the news said that there had been several warnings about likely attacks if she went on a big parade- you would think that is a good reason to avoid dragging thousands of likely targets on to the streets - just in case they were true.nothing new about suicide bombers these days.
no bus likelly meant no attack?
so please can you comment, not on the politics of terrorism, but on the decision made by her to go out in public and whether you think she was foolish , selfish or she should h#ave done it, irrespective of the likely risks to her followers in the general publ;ic.
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 11:19:23
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| Why do they have to be at risk for exercising their right to political assembly in the first place? You see what the terrorists want is to make freedom loving people afraid of going out and living their normal lives and asserting their freedoms. They want people to live with fear of their crude bombs so that they cannot ride the subway in London to go to work or parade on the streets of Karachi to demonstrate political assembly. They in effect want to break down the fabric of our civilization. We have to understand that every bomb that these terrorists explode , it only helps to defeat their cause. Bhutto and her followers did the right thing. The Islamic extremists are wrong again! |
Edited by - kayjatta on 22 Oct 2007 11:20:08 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 11:58:13
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How about state terrorism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_terrorism
........ political analyst Noam Chomsky has stated that, "The U.S. is officially committed to what is called 'low-intensity warfare'.... If you read the definition of low-intensity conflict in army manuals and compare it with official definitions of 'terrorism' in army manuals, or the U.S. Code, you find they're almost the same...........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_terrorism_by_United_States_of_America
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
Edited by - turk on 22 Oct 2007 11:59:51 |
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lurker
509 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 12:07:05
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ok, put it this way. you are an average pakistani Bhutto supporter. You are forewarned that a parade that is to be held is a likely target for suicide bombers according to Intelligence. Do you leave you house and go to this parade, even though you do not want your rights to be suppressed by terrorist threats?
I can't say that i would take the risk with such warnings . Here warnings were not given to the people. they were never given the right to choose whether their love for her was worth the risk and so 130 families lost loved ones.
I blame her self-indulgence - and of course i understand what you are trying to say about not letting terrorists win by threat - but she is responsible for her people if she wants to represent them. She has a duty of care to protect them.
i do not believe that she did. |
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kayjatta
2978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 12:15:51
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| Ms Bhutto has no duty of care to protect anyone. The Pakistani authorities and the security forces has the duty of care to protect the people of Pakistan including Ms. Bhutto. She has been away for 8 years and coming back for the first time and has very little control over anything. Remember, she narrowly escaped death herself... |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 12:32:17
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quote:
her pro-western and pro-American stance.
Or one might say the puppets of uncle sam.
On a note of yankeestan involvement with pakistan (I like the rhyme here).......
The August 17 air crash
As he was grappling with these problems, however, General Zia-ul-Haq died in a plane crash on August 17, 1988. ......A common suspicion within Pakistan, although with no proof, is that the crash was a political assassination carried out by the senior arm of Pakistan Army, [1] American CIA or Soviet KGB.
Let us have more info about the players:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Zia-ul-Haq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulfikar_Ali_Bhutto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto
[edit] Conspiracy theories about the Crash
No evidence has come to light to prove a conspiracy, although several theories do exist. Recently, John Gunther Dean, a former US ambassador to India, blamed the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, for orchestrating the assassination of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, though he offered no proof for his allegation, made to the World Policy Journal. The book Charlie Wilson's War has pointed out that Israel was an essential ally in the American funding of the Mujahadin in Afghanistan and Zia's death could not have benefited Israel. [citation needed] General Hamid Gul, who would become the Director-General of the ISI after General Zia's death, stated that the US Central Intelligence Agency was behind the plane crash.[citation needed] Some theories have gone on to say that it was an act in coordination with the Soviet KGB and the American CIA...
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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mbay
Germany
1007 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 13:49:26
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What is a terrorist from other part of the World?, never mind.
Who are waiting a hot water to frosty the other most be dreaming.(we learned about it from the past with null)
State of terrorist(US&Co.)against invicible terrorist! lets see what will come out of it.
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kobo
United Kingdom
7765 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 14:31:06
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Kay please stop meddling in politics of the Arab states, Gulf & Middle East and using it to CONDEMN ISLAM! You are PROVOCATIVE AGAIN!
Why do you made these assumptions and extrapolations, using these scenarios to score a political point. These politics are very intricate and I told you its all about POWER STRUGGLES, WORLD DOMINATION AND OTHER HIGH-LEVEL POLITICS. These crises have causes and what triggers them. Let it to the world of materialism, rat race, authoritarian and power struggles!
C.U. later! |
Edited by - kobo on 22 Oct 2007 17:28:02 |
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turk
USA
3356 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 00:10:01
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quote:
her pro-american and pro-western
Of course. She was an angel. The defender of democracy and freedom. Freedom fries. Let us see why this pro-democracy lady and her husband did for the pakistani people.
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[edit] Charges of corruption
The French, Polish, Spanish and Swiss governments have provided documentary evidence to the Pakistan government of alleged corruption by Bhutto and her husband. Bhutto and her husband faced a number of legal proceedings, including a charge of laundering money through Swiss banks. Her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, spent eight years in prison on similar corruption charges. Zardari, released from jail in 2004, has suggested that his time in prison involved torture; human rights groups have supported his claim that his rights were violated.[11]
A 1998 report[12] indicates that Pakistani investigators have documents that uncover a network of bank accounts, all linked to the family's lawyer in Switzerland, with Asif Zardari as the principal shareholder. According to the article, documents released by the French authorities indicated that Zadari offered exclusive rights to Dassault, a French aircraft manufacturer, to replace the air force's fighter jets in exchange for a 5% commission to be paid to a Swiss corporation controlled by Zardari. The article also said a Dubai company received an exclusive license to import gold into Pakistan for which Asif Zardari received payments of more than $10M into his Dubai-based Citibank accounts. The owner of the company denied that he had made payments to Zardari and claims the documents were forged. The paper also said that Zardari's parents, who had modest assets at the time of Bhutto's marriage, now own a 355-acre estate south of London. The estate has been auctioned through a court order.
Bhutto maintains that the charges levelled against her and her husband are purely political.[13][14] "Most of those documents are fabricated," she said, "and the stories that have been spun around them are absolutely wrong." An Auditor General of Pakistan (AGP) report supports Bhutto's claim. It presents information suggesting that Benazir Bhutto was ousted from power in 1990 as a result of a witch hunt approved by then-president Ghulam Ishaq Khan. The AGP report says Khan illegally paid legal advisors 28 million Rupees to file 19 corruption cases against Bhutto and her husband in 1990-92.[15]
However, Bhutto and her husband still face wide-ranging allegations of theft concerning hundreds of millions of dollars of "commissions" on government contracts and tenders. Despite this, a power-sharing deal recently brokered between Bhutto and Musharraf will allow Bhutto access to her Swiss bank accounts containing £740 million ($1.5 Billion). Another one of her prime assets include her 10 bedroom mock Tudor Surrey mansion.[citation needed]
[edit] Switzerland
On 23 July 1998, the Swiss Government handed over documents to the government of Pakistan which relate to corruption allegations against Benazir Bhutto and her husband.[16] The documents included a formal charge of money laundering by Swiss authorities against Zardari. The Pakistani government had been conducting a wide-ranging inquiry to account for more than $13.7 million frozen by Swiss authorities in 1997 that was allegedly stashed in banks by Bhutto and her husband. The Pakistani government recently filed criminal charges against Bhutto in an effort to track down an estimated $1.5 billion she and her husband are alleged to have received in a variety of criminal enterprises.[17] The documents suggest that the money Zardari is alleged to have laundered was accessible to Benazir Bhutto and had been used to buy a diamond necklace for over $175,000.[18]
The PPP has responded by flatly denying the charges, suggesting that Swiss authorities have been misled by false evidence provided by Islamabad.
On 6 August 2003, Swiss magistrates found Benazir and her husband guilty of money laundering.[19] They were given six-month suspended jail terms, fined $50,000 each and were ordered to pay $11 million to the Pakistani government. The six-year trial alleged that Benazir and Zardari deposited in Swiss accounts $10 million given to them by a Swiss company in exchange for a contract in Pakistan. The couple said they would appeal. The Pakistani investigators say Zardari opened a Citbank account in Geneva in 1995 through which they say he passed some $40 million of the $100 million he received in payoffs from foreign companies doing business in Pakistan.[20]
[edit] Poland
The Polish Government has given Pakistan 500 pages of documentation relating to corruption allegations against Benazir Bhutto and her husband. These charges are in regard to the purchase of 8,000 tractors in a 1997 deal.[21][22] According to Pakistani officials, the Polish papers contain details of illegal commissions paid by the tractor company in return for agreeing to their contract.[23] It is alleged that the arrangement "skimmed" Rs 103 mn rupees ($2 million) in kickbacks.[24] "The documentary evidence received from Poland confirms the scheme of kickbacks laid out by Asif Zardari and Benazir Bhutto in the name of (the) launching of Awami tractor scheme," APP said. Bhutto and Asif Ali Zardari allegedly received a 7.15 percent commission on the purchase through their front men, Jens Schlegelmilch and Didier Plantin of Dargal S.A., who received about $1.969 million for supplying 5,900 Ursus Tractors.[25]
[edit] France
Potentially the most lucrative deal alleged in the documents involved the effort by Dassault Aviation, a French military contractor. French authorities indicated in 1998 that Bhutto's husband, Zardari, offered exclusive rights to Dassault to replace the air force’s fighter jets in exchange for a five percent commission to be paid to a corporation in Switzerland controlled by Zardari.[26]
At the time, French corruption laws forbid bribery of French officials but permitted payoffs to foreign officials, and even made the payoffs tax-deductible in France. However, France changed this law in 2000. [27]
[edit] Middle East
In the largest single payment investigators have discovered, a gold bullion dealer in the Middle East is alleged to have deposited at least $10 million into one of Zardari's accounts after the Bhutto government gave him a monopoly on gold imports that sustained Pakistan's jewellery industry. The money was allegedly deposited into Zardari's Citibank account in Dubai.
Pakistan's Arabian Sea coast, stretching from Karachi to the border with Iran, has long been a gold smugglers' haven. Until the beginning of Bhutto's second term, the trade, running into hundreds of millions of dollars a year, was unregulated, with slivers of gold called biscuits, and larger weights in bullion, carried on planes and boats that travel between the Persian Gulf and the largely unguarded Pakistani coast.
Shortly after Bhutto returned as prime minister in 1993, a Pakistani bullion trader in Dubai, Abdul Razzak Yaqub, proposed a deal: in return for the exclusive right to import gold, Razzak would help the government regularize the trade. In November 1994, Pakistan's Commerce Ministry wrote to Razzak informing him that he had been granted a license that made him, for at least the next two years, Pakistan's sole authorized gold importer. In an interview in his office in Dubai, Razzak acknowledged that he had used the license to import more than $500 million in gold into Pakistan, and that he had travelled to Islamabad several times to meet with Bhutto and Zardari. But he denied that there had been any corruption or secret deals. "I have not paid a single cent to Zardari," he said.
Razzak claims that someone in Pakistan who wished to destroy his reputation had contrived to have his company wrongly identified as the depositor. "Somebody in the bank has cooperated with my enemies to make false documents," he said.
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diaspora! Too many Chiefs and Very Few Indians.
Halifa Salah: PDOIS is however realistic. It is fully aware that the Gambian voters are yet to reach a level of political consciousness that they rely on to vote on the basis of Principles, policies and programmes and practices. |
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