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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 15:23:37
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Hi Fellas,
I keep hearing Babylon must fall,Babylon will fall.
If so, which Babylon?
Is it Babylon of the ancient Mesopotamia during the third Dynasty of Ur (c.2112006 BC) 2,006 years to date.The only Babylon known?, which is now in mordern Iraq between Kish and Neppur on the Euphrates river?
If so then why do present day singers keep talking about Babylon falling?
That Babylon has long since fallen during the seige of Hamanu in the days of the great Hammurabi (2900 BC.)
Or is it the Fall of Iraq as a whole?
Can some one please enlightened me please?
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twinkly
United Kingdom
190 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 15:40:27
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Hi Janyangfara
I assume you heard these words from Black musicians, mostly reagge songs?
Babylon to them means the West,and everything associated with it, its economy, its educationsystem, its system most of all.
I only knew the word Babylon from reagge musicians, only later did I find out it was originally what you described it.
I never associated this word with Iraq, I hope I am right....
Babylon will fall-the West and its system will crumble......
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 22:33:33
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Greetings Janyanfara and Twinkly
It seems that in this time the West and Iraq are falling. What say you?
After all kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall
Babylon back is against de wall burning wid fire!
Wow, what goes around comes around so if ancient Babylon fell 2006 years ago and we are now living in 2006. Ironically the Babylonian systems of oppression which is the biblical metaphor used by Rastafarians to describe westernised systems of oppression, ie racism in all its forms. As well as all oppression whatever their colour.
As US, Uk and their allies are at war against the wishes of the majority of their people fighting against terrorism on the soil of ancient Bablyon in today's Iraq. Which symbolises in many people around the world the hypocrisy and double standards of the West by the continuing the immoral deprivity on the war on terror- who is terrorising who may ask?
When for those who have eyes to see the whole objective of the Iraq war was to control the oil supply. It's definitely a terrible situation. As well as the fall in the morality, freedom of speech,freedom of movement etc standards have and still are falling maybe this will lead to a new paradigm for equal rights and justice in the near future. our Creator willing.
Peace
Sister Omega
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Peace
Sister Omega |
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twinkly
United Kingdom
190 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 17:08:53
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What an excellent explaination
Thank you for that, I ve learnt something new and it gives me something to think about, in fact, we should all think about these words and take them serious.
Only if we change our way of thinking, can we then make changes to improve our wourld.
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medotech
42 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 18:34:16
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| People need to wake-up and think in terms of reality,not fantasy about babylon falling.I find that rediculous cos these Babylons are doing their best in their interest to stay ahead.If we want that,we should build our own babylon to be better than theirs(although that seems impossible in this world,may be the next one)then we wont be obssessed with the whitemans babylon falling.In mordern times,babylons dont fall like in the sense of the word,its just that other babylons will come to do better than others and so stay at the top,just like the case of Britain and the United States.Britain wasnt difeated,the US just came to do better and so at the forefront of the world affaires/economics/development and military might.So stop the nonesense about babylon burning and babylon falling.Build your own Babylon. |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 23:18:01
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Medotech firstly I'd like to ask you how long have you lived in the West?
Then I'd like to ask you who gave the US and UK an international mandate to invade Iraq?
And what section of the Iraqi people directly asked them to intervene?
Also could you tell me how the moral fabric in the west has improved over the past 20 years? And whether or not we enjoy greater freedom of movement fredom or speech here now since 2001?
As for the number 2006 years since Ancient Babylon fell and this year being 2006 when Iraq is not only under invasion and more western troops are being slaughtered, and sent home in body bags let alone countless numbers of Iraq's killed since the conflict started. You can't see any patterns well i suppose that's ok because not everyone can appreciate geometry.
As for building a new Babylon who wants to build a system built on the blood and expliotation of others to sustain it. We need a new paradigm to be able to think out of the system of boxes and fragmentation which has been set up to divide and rule people in on the globe which is round and as the figure 2006BC to 2006BEC is symbolising what goes around comes around. If one takes an eye for every eye taken we will all end up blind. So if something was wrong from inception how can it become right let alone wanting to build an imperfect system all over again
peace
Sister Omega
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Peace
Sister Omega |
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medotech
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 03:24:46
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Thats exactly my point,when you see the UK and the US doing this its because they made themselves stronger by uniting in their common values.IM not advocating building babylon in that sense but a more self determined,free and developed society where you could have all your freedoms respected.Im am a realist and its a philosophy that I advocate strongly.At the point the world is now,we cant tolerate tyrants and dictators,wether its Sadam or Jammeh,the same way we cant tolerate extremism and racism.
Dont get me wrong,i didnt support the war in Iraq cos I thought they went in under false pretence.That being said,Sadam wasnt a Saint either,he was a brutal dictator that make Jammeh looks like potty training.He killed thousands and opressed his own people.We shouldnt have room for these types of people,only if they could take action in Africa too and get rid of our despots cos we cant.
The US is the only super power now wether we like it or not and so they have to do whatever it takes to control their nations interest and what they see as threat to their national security.The United Nations is useless so the US dont need their mandate.They were sitting down at talking shops while almost a million people were slaughtered in Rwanda,same goes for Congo DR,Sudan,and a lot other places.Who knows what Sadam or the terrorists would have done if they get their hands on nuclear weapons?We have to stop this international bureaucratic crap cos the UN is like a giant with no teeth.Dictators like Sadam and others only understand the language of force and even thoguh war is terrible,sometimes it is necessary for the common good. |
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kijeras
11 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 10:07:37
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quote:
The US is the only super power now wether we like it or not and so they have to do whatever it takes to control their nations interest and what they see as threat to their national security.The United Nations is useless so the US dont need their mandate.They were sitting down at talking shops while almost a million people were slaughtered in Rwanda,same goes for Congo DR,Sudan,and a lot other places.Who knows what Sadam or the terrorists would have done if they get their hands on nuclear weapons?We have to stop this international bureaucratic crap cos the UN is like a giant with no teeth.Dictators like Sadam and others only understand the language of force and even thoguh war is terrible,sometimes it is necessary for the common good.
ALMIGHTY GOD, CONTINUE TO BLESS AMERICA AND AS YOU BLESS AMERICA, PLEASE BLESS AFRICA AND THE PEOPLE OF AFRICA....THANKS YOU GOD FOR I KNOW WILL BE DONE. |
abdou |
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Sister Omega
United Kingdom
2085 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 15:21:27
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Hi Medotech,
I agree that Saddam was no saint neither were the nations who put him in power ie US and UK. Yes, your right the US is a Superpower who decided to follow their agenda and to hell with the world, and UK followed suite. As for Rwanda President Clinton has apologised for his adminstration nonaction during Rwanda's geneocide because of the effects that the word "genocide" might of had on American votes their for blocked the word from being used. Because of the Americans embarassing defeat in Somalia he could afford such embrassment again, as consequence no invention by default allowed the genocide to happen.
You see these superpowers lack humanitarianism. The national interest is a filmsy excuse to justify war on terror it would of been more honest if it were a war to control resources because that is what is all about. If this war was being fought to liberate nations from tyrants as was the case in World War 11 then the Us and Britain would have had more popular support.As the Spainsh President who lost his vote and Tony Blair found out by a severely decreased majority at the last elections. As Lincoln said "You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all the people all of the time."And Bob Marley added "when you see the light stand up for your rights!" And people around the world have stood up and said the "War on Terror not in my name!"
Peace
Sister Omega
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Peace
Sister Omega |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 17:27:47
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Hi thanks 2 all fellas,
I think brother Medoteh has got the whole point wrong.
We body wound condone war or violence as the terrorist do (In my opinion those are not human) what we mean is ONE DAY,Babylon will come back to us as we now come to them.This was the reason 4 my writing but you need to:.......... refer yourself back to yor history books to enlightened yor self.
If what you preach is what you definately intend to practice,well Africa is there waiting 4 you.Go tomorrow and do yor coata to its development.Mark you,you are instead contributing more to European and American Babylon advancement than your own Africa.If you are not economically gready like me,then go back to Africa and there is plenty work and education 4 you regardless of the pay and dependancy.
Sadam might be a very brutal dictator(which is a fact)but was He not groomed by UK and washington against the then Aiotola of Iran? Who aided Bin laden and the Talaban against the Russians?My friend read.
My brother I have nothing against the west infact so many of them are excellent people but there politians are ......I am lost 4 words .
If truely the world super powers are really interested in wiping out dictators,ask your self where should they really go?...............
.........AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA my brother AFRICA.....
you know and I know that worst things happened in Africa than Iraq..... or any where on Earth......Think of......Rwanda, Burundi,Chad,Sudan,Zimbabwe,Soweto(S.Africa),April 10 and 11 Gambia, Ethiopia, Uganda and every where in Africa there are human right abuses.Who is protecting them?You the western spokes man?Don't you know you are not even counted?
My dear brother,the west got developed by us providing all her hard labours since 5,000 ago (Slavery and colonoisation days)to date and maybe some years to come.
If as you said building our own better Babylon wount be possible or maybe in the next world,may I ask WHY?
Peace be with you.
Mankajang Janyanfara
I know you have to zeal and |
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medotech
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2006 : 19:05:53
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Im no spokesman for the west or anybody for that matter.Im an independent individual that believes in intellectual and the freedom to think and express my opinion.I was merely giving you my opinion of what I thinkn and what I believe needs to be done.Ofcourse i might be wrong and open to debate.But one thing is clear,the time has passed for making excuses and blaming all of africa's problems on the west;Its almost sound like a justification now for africa to remain as it is.Yes the West exploited africa through slavery and the like and we all know that.But our own way of thinking coupled with bad leadership are more of a culprit in modern times than the west.Almost funny that majority of countries in africa cant boast clean drinking water let alone 24hrs electricity,almost 50 yrs after independent.It is not a shame to admit our failures, set our priorities right and forget about blaming the West always for our woes.Just like Osa Kingsley in New African magazine puts it, "it is a lazy society which puts all the blame for its troubles on its neighbors".
It is in this same spirit that I dont have faith in the United Nations either.We all want peace and harmony in the world,but that is just a utopian thinking.The realities of the world are not like that because we will continue to have evil dictators that will continue to take their countries on a path of ruin and destruction.The United Nations was formed to curtail global decipline and ensure peace and security to the world.Now tell me,since its creation,there have been more wars,more killings and more destruction that left you thinking wether this organisation has any use.The same applies to the AU and the Old OAU.These organisations need to show some teeth or else we will continue to have the superpowers stepping up.The United States and the west have done their share of aiding and abeting dictators, and many other problems in the world by encouraging Sadam and other dictators to thrive in the name of stability.But without them who else will step to the plate.Certainly not the French, Russians, chinese or even the UN.I did not support the Iraqi invasion because of the reasons that they went there for and thats why they are loosing support from their people.But on the same token,Im happy that Sadam is gone and now paying for his crimes.This is a lesson that we should practice,that no matter how repressive you become,you will have to account for your actions.
Regarding your comment,I will gladly go back to Africa and play my part,as thats what we all want.I mean thats the whole point of getting an education over here to one day contribute to africa's development.You asked why africa wont be able to build its own babylon?the reasons are very obvious,Corrupted civil society,dishonest and inhumane leadership,tribalism,sectionalism and the list will go on and on.Yes I would have stayed in Africa if the conditions for my future development are feasible,come on,why do you think thousands of africans leaving home to go to europe and the US.Do you think we love that,leaving our families and homes to toil in other peoples lands?Peolpe dying on the way to Morroco and the sahara desert.Am sorry man but thats the sad reality.We have very little to show for our independence after thousands and even millions lost their lives to fight for.We have to be realistic here,If those things are tackled may be,just may be we will inch towards that fantasy which is exactly how i see it,a fantasy or else,we will be the continent that got directly from colonialism to complete collapse. |
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2006 : 01:21:41
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Thank you brother Medotech,
Wel I agree with certain points you mentioned Yes Africa needs to develop it self.But still imagine the richest continent in mineral resourses yet the poorest in reality.
I was not now blaming the west 4 slavery as that is a thing of the past but now my brother since Africa gained her independance from her colonial masters,Name me one country in Africa that has democracy from Nassar's Egypt to Mandela's South Africa. Africa with everything, yet cannot fed for her self.Is it your fault to be here when you are deemed to be the first civilised people,first educated,first to make agricultural tools ect and yet the most backward?Is it your fault why since independance Africa cannot produce any standing democratic leader to emulate.(Theose I know of are killed either b4 they have the chance to implement it or betrayed by their most trusted people(those clossest to them).
My brother you know and I know that if Africa was like the west,we would not have been here 4 there is no place like Home( As Evi Edna said "Home sweet Home....").But even if a totoise wanted dancing,it doesn't have a waist.Aim and the desire to play our part in thye development process brought you and I,and many others here 4 you know even if you have the aim you can't implement it at home due to the inavailability of a conducive environment.
My bro I don't need to enlighten you any more but the fact that the western powers are still aiding our brutal African leaders,thats what I mean by they being responsible.
Oh yes I agree with you on Sadam.But again I was enlightening you that the very West groomed Him against the then Iranian leader.sO IF he commits crimes against his people,is because He thought he will always get His master's backing.Look at General Muzaraph of Pakistan, despite his brutal leadership,the West regards him as an ally.despite his country hiding talaban and alqaieda desidents,the west only sees his regime as West friendly no wonder there cannot be peace in Afganistan.Don't misunderstand me I love the people of the West but don't am totally against most of their foreign policies.
My brother please learn history.
Peace
Mankajang Janyanfara |
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serenata
Germany
1400 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2006 : 17:21:59
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medotec, you can't blame the UN for all the wars that have taken place since its foundation. Many of them were and are substitute wars or destabilization activities of the West. Don't forget there are certain countries who are almost completely in the hands of their 'military-industrial complex', as the former US President Eisenhower 1961 clearsightedly called it. These people want to make money, and the more war, the more money - that's all.
When the USA noticed the UN no longer let them get away with everything, they declared the UN bankrupt, redundant and so on. Don't you see through this manoevre?
I agree with you in the point that ongoing peace and harmony is an utopian dream and will always be. But a little more balance would not be bad, hm? If you don't feel well with dictators, then why do you, a Non-American as I suppose, feel ok with one predominant 'super power'?
I fully agree with you, too, in the point that it leads to nothing if Africans only blame others for what is going wrong on their continent. "Corrupted civil society, dishonest and inhumane leadership, tribalism, sectionalism and the list will go on and on", you write. Okay, but please tell me: Are your admired USA free of all these evils?
Corruption is a political principle, almost a political 'virtue' in the USA, where it is practiced openly and shamelessly - just look at that oily Bush administration. Corruption, as I heard, is very common in the US Police.
Next: 'Dishonest and inhumane leadership'. Let me think... I remember words like 'Guantanamo', 'Abu Ghreib', 'Vietnam', 'Agent Orange', 'Chile', 'Guatemala', 'Hiroshima', and so on, and so on. The same inside the society, where there is, for example, death penalty, exploitation of prisoners and a commercial prison system (oh yes, crime is -legal- money in the USA!), and so on.
But tribalism - in the USA? Then, how would you call it if a multiracial society is still divided into 'colour groups'?
I don't think the USA are the 'great devil'. There are a lot of other 'devils' in the world who can compete with them. But 'The fish stinks from the head', as we say in Germany, and if the USA is the 'head' of the world, then... Okay, enough. |
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medotech
42 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2006 : 22:16:10
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The US and Europe are far from perfect and we all know that. But at least there is a rule of law where the majority of people get accountable for their actions; no matter how long it takes sometimes. Secondly, the UN was created to ensure world peace even though that is clearly difficult. It is a responsibility they have as arbiters of world peace. What we need is a strong organization that can flex muscles where they are needed or else they are irrelevant and when you check their budjet, most of it comes from the US and so they risk being manipulated. The UN should either be reformed to deal with the new global realities or be redundant.
So far, I am perfectly happy with one super-power, we had five or so powers in the past and they resulted in two devastating world wars. We had two during the cold war and we almost got another world war. I don’t know about the future but so far with one, the world is much better even though far from perfect.
Some might call it naïve but without the US, Most of Europe would have been speaking German by now if the Third Reich had its way and for us in Africa, I don’t know what would have become of us. I know the US have not always being perfect and doing the right thing and sometimes not practicing what they preach, but they are here and until their time comes to pass the baton(may be to china or whoever) we gotta learn to deal with current circumstances and use them to our advantage.
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Janyanfara
Tanzania
1350 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2006 : 17:31:05
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Well well well,
I think worldwide Human right records of the United states is worse.Think of Camp Delta in Cuba,Iraq,Afganistan,Detainees sent to countries so that they couldbe tutured and recently Treatment of afro American in New Orleans in the Aftermat of Hurricine Katrina.
My dear bro the US may be individual very humane and kind people but you and I know well they collectively polical hypocretes.
I Love American as individuals and I know somany of them are real good guys but tell me the best American govermental track record that was done mainly on humanitarian basis without sidely political double standeredness.
The W11 you talked about,well you must read Wintin Churchils memours then.Oh whata country America is.They entered the war for political gains.
But any way Americans as individuals are real nice people but they collectively hypocretes on the political scene no matter which party(Republicans or Democrats) are at the helms.
Peace
Mankajang Janyanrara |
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