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Momodou	Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 15:25:31 GAMBIA-L Digest 87 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 2) Re: Monogamy by Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> 3) Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 4) Re: fyi by chakys@image.dk 5) Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] by M W Payne <awo@mindspring.com> 6) Fwd: Introduction from Housainou Waggeh by momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) 7) Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down by momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) 8) NEW MEMBER by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 9) Fwd: FINANCE-DEVELOPMENT: Grumbles Over by momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) 10) Re: Sierr Leone List Mail by TAIKAIN@aol.com 11) Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 12) SV: SeneGambian Affairs by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk> 13) Re: death of Dembo Marong by Nuha Jatta <b96nj@mh1.hh.se> 14) please..... by Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> 15) Re: Telecommunications in Africa by Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> 16) RE: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 17) Unscribe Me by AISHA CAMARA <Camara@cardiff.ac.uk> 18) RE: Barry's HoneyMoon,OVER! by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 19) Re: Monogamy by "LAURA T RADER" <LTR6685@owl.forestry.uga.edu> 20) new member by "N'Deye Marie N'Jie" <njie.1@osu.edu> 21) cassamance by hghanim@nusacc.org 22) RE: please..... by hghanim@nusacc.org 23) RE: Monogamy -Reply by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> 24) RE: Monogamy -Reply by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> 25) Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] by chakys@image.dk 26) RE: Monogamy -Reply by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> 27) Introduction by "Ebrima Kah" <ebrima@online.no> 28) RE: Monogamy -Reply by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 29) Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down by MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <m.gassama@swipnet.se> 30) RE: Monogamy by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 31) RE: Monogamy by hghanim@nusacc.org 32) Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 33) Thanks! by ASJanneh@aol.com 34) EC / ACP info by ASJanneh@aol.com 35) add a new member by ahmed tijan deen <tijan@wam.umd.edu> 36) Casamance Update by ASJanneh@aol.com 37) Female Condom Studies by ASJanneh@aol.com 38) RE: Monogamy -Reply by Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> 39) Re: please..... by Gunjur@aol.com 40) Re: Thanks! by Gunjur@aol.com 41) Re: please..... by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 42) new members by Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> 43) Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] by Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> 44) Copyright issues ... by "Katim S. Touray" <dekat@itis.com> 45) Re: please..... by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 46) SV: SeneGambian Affairs by "Momodou S Sidibeh" <momodou.sidibeh@stockholm.mail.telia.com> 47) SV: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down by "Momodou S Sidibeh" <momodou.sidibeh@stockholm.mail.telia.com> 48) Re: please..... by Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> 49) RE: Copyright issues ... by hghanim@nusacc.org 50) RE: please..... by hghanim@nusacc.org 51) fyi by hghanim@nusacc.org 52) African Women Global Network International Conference (fwd) by njie.1@osu.edu 53) RE: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 54) Fw: Intn'l African Student Assoc. Newsletter seeking submissions(fwd) by njie.1@osu.edu 55) RE: please. by Ousman Gajigo <gajigoo@wabash.edu> 56) Fwd: HEALTH-ETHICS: US Medical Experiments in Third World Assailed by momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) 57) RE: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) by hghanim@nusacc.org 58) RE: please. by hghanim@nusacc.org 59) GambiaNet Progress Report 2 by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 60) [Fwd: NEW WHITE HOUSE AFRICA ADVISER CHARTS U.S. POLICY PRIORITIES] by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 61) Re: please. by ASJanneh@aol.com 62) Re: please..... by Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> 63) Re: please..... by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 64) Re: please..... by Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> 65) Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 66) Re: please..... by MJawara@aol.com 67) Re: please..... by "Alpha Robinson" <garob1@cip.hx.uni-paderborn.de> 68) SV: Thanks! by "Momodou S Sidibeh" <momodou.sidibeh@stockholm.mail.telia.com> 69) Tour operator seeks Gambian contacts by Andy Lyons <alyons@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu> 70) Re: Copyright issues ... by Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> 71) Re: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) by Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> 72) Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> 73) Re: Copyright issues ... by Tamsir Mbai <mba4224@etbu.edu> 74) Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <m.gassama@swipnet.se> 75) Re: please... by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 76) RE: Copyright issues ... by "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu> 77) RE: Copyright issues ... by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 78) Out of man's rib God created "woman" (fwd) by Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> 79) Re: Copyright issues ... (fwd) by Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> 80) RE: Monogamy -Reply (fwd) by Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> 81) Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy by MSarr27100@aol.com 82) My replies and "CLITTERECTOMY " by "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> 83) Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by Gunjur@aol.com 84) Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy by "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> 85) Re: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) by Gunjur@aol.com 86) RE: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) by Gunjur@aol.com 87) Re: Out of man's rib God created "woman" (fwd) by Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> 88) New Member by "YAYA S. SISAY" <sisayy@wabash.edu> 89) Re: SV: Thanks! by Gunjur@aol.com 90) Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy by MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <m.gassama@swipnet.se> 91) Re: Copyright issues ... by Abdou Touray <abdou@cs.columbia.edu> 92) Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by ASJanneh@aol.com 93) Re: Copyright issues ... by ASJanneh@aol.com 94) Re: Telecommunications in Africa by "Katim S. Touray" <dekat@itis.com> 95) Re: Telecommunications in Africa by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 96) Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 97) Re: Monogamy -Reply (fwd) by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 98) RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> 99) RE: Copyright issues ... by hghanim@nusacc.org 100) Re:Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by TRODDING THRU CREATION INNA IRIE MEDITATION <ABARROW@rr5.rr.intel.com> 101) RE: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> 102) Re: Copyright issues ... (fwd) by "Kaira Isatou Boubacar" <kaiisa@hs.nki.no> 103) Lists and their evolution... (fwd) by "D. Proctor" <proctord@u.washington.edu> 104) Re: New Member by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 105) Re: Thanks! by MJagana@aol.com 106) Re: Copyright issues ... by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 107) subscribtion of a friend (professor) by "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> 108) Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy by MJagana@aol.com 109) Re: subscribtion of a friend (professor) by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 110) Gambia in the News (25 Sept) by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 111) RE: Copyright issues ... by Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> 112) RE: Copyright issues ... by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 113) Re: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) by Francis Njie <c3p0@xsite.net> 114) Re: Gambia in the News (25 Sept) by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 115) RE: Copyright issues ... by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 116) Re: Telecommunications in Africa by Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> 117) WORDS COULD BE DISTORTED AS SOCIETY EVOLVES.... by TRODDING THRU CREATION INNA IRIE MEDITATION <ABARROW@rr5.rr.intel.com> 118) RE: Copyright issues ... by "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> 119) RE: Copyright issues ... by hghanim@nusacc.org 120) messed the postings up. by "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> 121) RE: messed the postings up. by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 122) News about Gambia... (fwd) by Numukunda Darboe <ndarboe@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> 123) RE: Copyright issues ... by Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> 124) Re: Copyright issues ... by Numukunda Darboe <ndarboe@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> 125) RE: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) by Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> 126) Re: Copyright issues ... by Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> 127) RE: Copyright issues ... by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 128) New member by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 129) Re: Copyright issues ... by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 130) Unsubscribe me. by Momodou Njie <M.Njie@reading.ac.uk> 131) Misuse of the N---er Word (part 1) (fwd) by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 132) Misuse of the N---er Word (part 2) (fwd) by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 133) RE: Copyright issues ... by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 134) The '****' word and the dictionary 'makers' (fwd) by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 135) RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> 136) RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> 137) humor for the weekend (fwd) by mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) 138) Re: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) by Francis Njie <c3p0@xsite.net> 139) Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by "<PMJ@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> 140) New Member by momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) 141) RE: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 142) Fwd: Looking for Gambian stamps by Andy Lyons <alyons@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu> 143) Re: Foroyaa's email by "<TGR@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> 144) Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse (2) by "<PMJ@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> 145) The different topics lately on Gambia-L by "<TGR@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> 146) Re: Monogamy -Reply (fwd) by Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> 147) Re: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) by MJagana@aol.com 148) Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse (2) by Hous@aol.com 149) RE: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse (2) by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 150) RE: The different topics lately on Gambia-L by BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:08:40 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down Message-ID: <9709210808.AA21390@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Toma Camara, you wrote: > In terms of performance by region, UNCTAD points to a recovery > based on a number of factors in Africa. It cites an improvement in > governability, sustained prices of raw materials, favourable > weather conditions and the pacification of several internal > conflicts. They must be kidding! Is West Africa part of their poll? What about Liberia, Sierra Leone and now Senegal (Cassamance)? > > But the agency warns that continued recovery in Africa depends > on an additional factor: the expansion of non-traditional exports > in order to obtain revenues for financing the imports necessary > for investment. It is well known that the rate of import by far exceeds the rate of export in almost any African country, which also has serious implications for deficits in foreign exchange. In most of these countries, politics dictates economics. But what is not known is that economics in turn determines the food and nutritional status of any given population, the ultimate force behind politics. To overcome this shortsightedness, the African governments must go beyound politics to do anything to provide knowledge, food and what is best for all its citizens. Most African goverments have not understood the relationship and implications between increased productivity and a resulting boost for the countries economy. And here we are today tolling the continent for hunger, malnutrition and low national productivity. Our colonial rulers built for themselves government systems seperate from the traditional or ethnic systems. And, unfortunately, our African governments inherited the system without much change, operating according to the western values and concepts. In our traditional societies agriculture and food dominates everything else, but in the colonial still prevailing system, cash crops are given priority over anything else. The local interests of our traditional people are so much at conflict with political interests. But let me ask you, to what extent does education or our degrees earned prepare us well to live or work in the village where agriculture is the main stay or occupation? Instead, it seems to encourage urban migration, driving the people to quit their villages. Is that the objective of our governments? If No, then why does education pull us away from villages even in the face of starvation and misery in towns and cities? Regards, Moe S. Jallow ======================================================================== mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:21:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Monogamy Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970921041412.8900C-100000@acc5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Amy my sister: the way you framed your question makes it difficult to have a serious debate on the issue. Either you can juxtapose monogamy with polygamy - as to whether one is better than the other - or ask the separte the question: Is sleeping around more exciting than sleeping with your wife or wives. You see, monogamy/polygamy fall under the institution of marriage, whereas 'slleping around does not! LatJor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:29:57 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down Message-ID: <9709210829.AA28784@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think we ought to revisit the debate between Agriculture versus Information Technology in the Gambia ... won't you say? Where are Momodous Buharry and Sidibeh???? Also, whatever happened to the Gambia Shadow List members...Pa Musa and Co. in the Gambia? In black American english (slang) we say: Wha'Zup???? Have a nice weekend...well, what's left of it anyway. Regards, Moe S. Jallow ====================================================================== mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:06:05 +0200 From: chakys@image.dk To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: fyi Message-ID: <199709211102.NAA31349@mail.image.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Africa is in a deep uncorfortable situation in the new technological century where competion is a main rule . That because of our unscrupulous leaders who want to ruin the country for their own benefit. They're abusing of the ignorance of the population to get rich. It's absurd!!!!!! The alphabetisation is one of the solutions, but the other one could be that the populations are getting involved in politics .That will for sure put a stop to a political abuse. To reach that stage, we need a real reconversion of mentality: our leaders have to work for more merit instead of their own prestiges In so many cases, politics is a profession in Africa. That's why, they don't care about their fellows. We need to modernize some of our institutions to stop giving excessive powers to the president and ban the concepts `` spiritual guide or the father of the nation=B4=B4. We need DEMOCRACY in AFRICA Regards. Chakys.. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:00:33 -0400 From: M W Payne <awo@mindspring.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] Message-ID: <34251A70.FE0CDECF@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been out of town and away from this list for a little more than a week, only to return and find out that there have been quite a bit of "fireworks" during that time. As a former student of Dr. Clarke, and then (although not a historian) a former junior colleague of his, I must say that I am impressed by Mr. LatJor's response, and am in full agreement with him. I think that, regardless of his scholarship and honesty (or lack thereof), Alex Haley's importance is unquestionable. It has been no secret that Haley's "faction" is flawed, and perhaps features more fiction than fact. (As an aside, it was actually Haley who first coined the word "faction" to represent what he was doing, and not the great Guyanese anthropologist Ivan Van Sertima, as was suggested on this list.) At any rate, Haley's Roots, has done more to put The Gambia as well as the horrors and the reality of the Middle Passage and its aftermath in the minds of millions of people, than any of the factual, and perhaps dry academic works that have preceded or have followed it. In this regard, Haley's contribution is unquestionable. Interestingly, the last leg of my recent trip, finds me returning from Washington, DC these past four days, where the Afro American Historical and Genealogical Society just held its 20th anniversary conference. As the date implies, the society's mere existence is a direct result of Haley's work. Quite a bit of good genealogical and historical work has come out of the society over the years. As an African American, I am not sure what a "typical" African American response is, as we are not a monolithic group of people (which people have a "typical" response and are monolithic. That remark appears to be demeaning, although perhaps unintentionally so ) There are conservatives, progressives, nationalists among The African American community. Some, as a result of the continuous onslaught of miseducation, are filled with self hatred and are easily co-opted, while there others are committed to the elevation of the community. Even among the conservatives, there are some who are committed to our elevation, although in my personal opinion, they are misguided. In reading the thread, I am not sure how Haley's The Autobiography of Malcolm X became relevant, as I thought the work of most relevance to this discussion was Roots. But, yes even "Autobiography" was flawed, just as any other work would be. I am not sure what the "hair splitting" is all about there. If the hairsplitting was about whether or not Dr. Clarke had a positive relationship with Malcolm X, I have it on numerous reliable independent sources in the community that, indeed, the relationship did exist. Personal conversations with Dr. Clarke has confirmed this as well. Another interesting note, is that our Department of Black and Puerto Rican Studies at Hunter College of the City University of New York, where Professor Clarke taught for over twenty years, was actually created by students (not by faculty or the administration) when students demonstrated, protested, and then closed down the school in order to be heard. Because of the exclusion of courses related to the global experiences of people of African descent, and from African perspectives, students who were hungering for knowledge of self, first requested, then demand that an entire department be established which would guarantee the dissemination of such scholarship. Students not only got their demands for the creation of the department by insisted that THEY choose the faculty who would teach in the department. The very first person who was chosen to teach was Dr. John Henrik Clarke. The department is approaching its thirtieth anniversary and although beleaguered by reactionary forces, which would like to see its demise, it still thrives. The point here, is that students or a people can move to higher levels than the larger society would normally allow, if they act collectively and decisively, at the proper moment. My only self-criticism is that we should have moved further in the years that followed, rather than let the reactionary right wing forces gain ground. Dr. Clarke's contribution in the field really does not need mention. It is surprising to find anyone, familiar with the field, who is unfamiliar with Dr. Clarke. Even in the years following his blindness, he has influenced thousands of scholars, still lecturing on the circuit, both within the U.S. and in Africa. His knowledge, memory and scholarship are legendary, and need no introduction. The numerous works he has written since his eye sight left, are all tributes to his acumen, and an instruction to us all. (If I were 10% as productive in my lifetime, I would have been ecstatic.) Although seriously irritated by the remarks (name calling) of "Bernard," I think that we can disagree without being disagreeable. The name calling, on all sides, should stop and the genuine discussion and dialogue should be increased. (I know that we all slip at some point, but this should be minimized.) In the spirit of community, let us all move forward to help elevate each other, and not tear down those whose lives have been dedicated to improving the global community. Thank you. M W Payne > > I really appreciate the response you sent me from the brother or > Sister > > from Gambia. It was very very interesting and I regretfully admit, > very > > true, even the part of I being a "Jackass". Yet, understand many > of > > the great men whom I emulate were also complimented with such > praise. > > Former Mayor of Detroit Coleman Young (whom freely told pacified > Negroes > > and whites alike "where to get off"), The Honorable Louis Farrakahn > > (scorned by all but a true leader none the less), and the list goes > on > > thank-you. > > > > Yet, Please inform LatJor that I will always respect his/her > opinion. > > Yet, I ask to reserve the right to disagree. Please See below. > > > > Modou Jallow wrote: > > > > > Bernard, > > > Below is a forwarded response of your reply to the Alex Haley's > > > message. > > > The rather unpleasant respose was sent by a member of the Gambia > > > mailing > > > list. I apologize for any name calling that was used. > > > > > > ----Read on ------ > > > > > > > From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> > > > > To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List > > > <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > > > > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] > > > > In-Reply-To: <9709191825.AA58358@st6000.sct.edu> > > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > > X-To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" > > > <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > > > > X-Sender: gndow@acc5 > > > > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > > > > > > > > Moe: > > > > I did post something on this issue a while back. I do not know > if it > > > > > > > was read. But on your current posting which is a forward of a > > > > 'Black American friend' of yours, I would like you to forward > this > > > > message to him from me. In his piece he quotes and comments > > > > as follows: > > > > > > > > >> But Henrik Clarke, > > > > > > a veteran black historian, told Bookworm: > > > > > > "As a people short of heroes, we sometimes > > > > > > take the best we can get and sometimes we > > > > > > exaggerate them into something a little bit > > > > > > better than they deserve to be." > > > > > > > > His comment: > > > > > What a loser. If he can't win just piss on the winner. I > can't > > > state > > > > > what a jerk this type of African American is. > > > > +++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > First, the 'jerk' your Black American friend is referring to is > none > > > other > > > > than Professor John Henrik Clarke. He is one of the most eminent > > > > > scholars on African and African-American and African-Caribbean > > > > History. An elder (over 80 years I believe) began teaching > African > > > > History on the street corners of Harlem at a time when your > friend's > > > > > > > mother was either not yet born or was still in diapers! > > > > I respect that and never will I belittle such accomplishments, Yet > at > > the same time am I required to agree with ones views due to the > number > > of years on has lectured on African, African-American, and > > African-Caribbean History? > > > > > > The record of Prof. Clarke can best be guaged by the number of > > > > prominent African-American scholars, scientists, and department > > > > heads, politicians, etc... who have been schooled by him. If we > were > > > > > > > to begin listing these, it would certainly be a Who's Who list. > > > Among > > > > the most renown is one Malcolm X to whom Clarke was once his > > > > advisor. > > > > In reading the Autobiography of Malcom Little (Malcomn X). I did > not > > read of Professor John Henrik Clark. are you sure of this fact?? > Where > > is it documented. Can it be supported? > > > > > Prof. Clarke has influenced two generations of African- > > > > Americans as well as Afrricans worldwide with his researches and > > > > > lectures on the pan-African struggle. > > > > I respect that and surely I am a beneficiary of his efforts. > > > > > > The mark of a good scholar is to speak the truth without fear or > > > > favor. > > > > We must not confuse "truth" with "opinion"... > > > > > > The mark of a great scholar is to influence a whole generation > of > > > > scholars to follow in your footsteps. This is the legacy of > > > > John Henrik Clarke, Professor Emeritus. Now blinded by age and > > > > the many hours of reading and researching, he has donated his > > > > entire library to the Atlanta University Center. > > > > The students of that great institution are truly blessed due to this > > > person's generosity..... During my collegiate journey at Troy State > > > University, Such material was purposely not available for of course, > it > > was a White institution; for how else would they keep me in bondage > > without chains. They would have to keep me ignorant of ones own > self, > > culture, and history...I am surely indebted to this man. Maybe a > "Jerk" > > is inappropriate. Yet, my brother or sister. Try to understand my > > anger and hatred. There were two types of slaves upon the > plantations > > of North America. The field ** and the House **. Today we > > still have many House **s among us. And they belittle the > efforts > > of the Field Ni----, like myself at every turn in order to gain > favor > > with those they perceive with the ability to increase the quality of > > > their lives. I hate these bastards with every fiber of my > existence. I > > grew angry when I "perceived" what I thought was a "House **" > at > > the Devils work. > > > > > Tell your friend to > > > > go to the Woodruff Library in the A.U.C. center (I assume he > lives > > > > in Atlanta like you). > > > > I do.... > > > > > In the ground floor, the books in the entire > > > > African-American library in this section were once his! Yea I > know > > > > he will find literally thousands of books, but he needs to delve > in > > > > all those works before calling anybody a 'jerk'!!! > > > > Wow, thank you for opening my eyes and increasing my knowledge....I > am > > greatly indebted to this great man. > > > > > > A recently published work of Clarke's would also be a good > starting > > > > point for him. The book is called: "Notes for an African World > > > > Revolution - Africans at the Crossroads" by John Henrik Clarke. > > > > It is a 450 page work that will keep him occupied for a while. > > > > I will surely acquire it after I finish reading "Night of fire". I > am > > only pages away from finishing "Night of Fire" the story to > Toussaint > > L'Ouverture....I am sure LatJour has already read this book, it is > the > > book of a great African Slave, Haitian general, Liberator, > (1743-1803) > > By the way...have he/she read the book he/her is referring me to?? > > > > > > Another book he should read is: "Our Story - A Handbook of > > > > African American and Contemporary Issues" Edited by Akyaaba > > > > Addai-Sebo and Ansei Wong. Clarke contributed to this work > > > > with sevral articles: African Resistance and Colonial > Domination: > > > > The Africans in the Americas; Pan-Africanism and the Future of > > > > the African Family; Africans in the New World: Their > Contribution > > > > to Science, Invention and Technology. > > > > I will surely acquire this material, yet promise me I am not > > communicating with a hypocrite. Promise me you have read the > material > > yourself. > > > > > > > > > > Finally I leave your 'jackass' friend with these words of > Professor > > > > John Henrik Clarke: > > > > > > > > If we have to change tomorrow, we are going to have to look back > > > > > inorder to look forward. We will have to look back with some > > > courage, > > > > warm our hands on the revolutionary fires of those who came > before > > > > us and understand that we have within ourselves, nationally and > > > > internationally, the ability to regain what we have lost and to > > > build > > > > a new humanity for ourselves, first and foremost, and for the > whole > > > > world ultimately. To do this we must extend the concept of > > > > Pan-Africanism beyond its original base to a concept of a world > > > > union of all African people, the African in Africa, the African > in > > > the > > > > Caribbean, the African in South America, the African in the > Pacific > > > > Islands and, especially, the African throughout the world who > has > > > > yet to realise that he or she is African too." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:56:17 +0200 From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Fwd: Introduction from Housainou Waggeh Message-ID: <3545116319.32324678@inform-bbs.dk> Forwarded by Momodou Camara. ---forwarded mail START--- From: Hous@aol.com,Internet To: Momodou Camara Date: 21/09/97 20:53 Subject: Re: DEVELOPMENT: South Battles The Currents Of Globalisation/RELATE/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi my name is Husainou Waggeh and I am from Basse Koba Kunda. I have been in this country for almost ten years.I have always been in New York. I always like read news about our lovely and friendly gambia.I think we should all work collectively to improve this news paper. Actually I am working on a web page which will touch much on gambia .I may need some pictures and bit of information about tourism in The gambia. If any has suggestions or some resource to share please send to me. ---forwarded mail END--- Momodou Camara. 21.9.1997 21:18 --- OffRoad 1.9t registered to Momodou Camara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:56:32 +0200 From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down Message-ID: <3968454653.32325369@inform-bbs.dk> Hi Moe, That news article was from IPS and not written by me. I do share your views and I wonder which countries were involved in their survey. We still have a long way to go when our leaders spend two million dalasis on inauguration ceremonies or over five hundred thousand dalasis on the treatment of an ambassador's child whilst basic drugs are missing in our hospitals or children dropping out of school at grade six because of the number of grade seven places available in Junior Secondary Schools through out the counrty. ooops!! > >Toma Camara, you wrote: > >> In terms of performance by region, UNCTAD points to a recovery >> based on a number of factors in Africa. It cites an improvement in >> governability, sustained prices of raw materials, favourable >> weather conditions and the pacification of several internal >> conflicts. > >They must be kidding! Is West Africa part of their poll? What about >Liberia, Sierra Leone and now Senegal (Cassamance)? > >> >> But the agency warns that continued recovery in Africa depends >> on an additional factor: the expansion of non-traditional exports >> in order to obtain revenues for financing the imports necessary >> for investment. > >It is well known that the rate of import by far exceeds the rate of export >in almost any African country, which also has serious implications for >deficits in foreign exchange. In most of these countries, politics >dictates economics. But what is not known is that economics in turn >determines the food and nutritional status of any given population, the >ultimate force behind politics. To overcome this shortsightedness, the >African governments must go beyound politics to do anything to provide >knowledge, food and what is best for all its citizens. > >Most African goverments have not understood the relationship and >implications between increased productivity and a resulting boost for the >countries economy. And here we are today tolling the continent for hunger, >malnutrition and low national productivity. Our colonial rulers built for >themselves government systems seperate from the traditional or ethnic >systems. And, unfortunately, our African governments inherited the system >without much change, operating according to the western values and >concepts. In our traditional societies agriculture and food dominates >everything else, but in the colonial still prevailing system, cash crops >are given priority over anything else. The local interests of our >traditional people are so much at conflict with political interests. But >let me ask you, to what extent does education or our degrees earned >prepare us well to live or work in the village where agriculture is the >main stay or occupation? Instead, it seems to encourage urban migration, >driving the people to quit their villages. Is that the objective of our >governments? If No, then why does education pull us away from villages >even in the face of starvation and misery in towns and cities? > >Regards, >Moe S. Jallo ---------------------------- Momodou Camara. --- OffRoad 1.9t registered to Momodou Camara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:10:25 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: NEW MEMBER Message-ID: <19970921201047.AAA22898@LOCALNAME> Alex P. Swarray has been added to the list. Welcome to gambia-l and please send a brief introduction about yourself to the group. Our address is: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Momodou Camara ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1997 20:21:40 GMT From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Fwd: FINANCE-DEVELOPMENT: Grumbles Over Message-ID: <2440683421.573764921@inform-bbs.dk> Copyright 1997 InterPress Service, all rights reserved. Worldwide distribution via the APC networks. * 17-Sep-97 * Title: FINANCE-DEVELOPMENT: Grumbles Over World Bank Business Methods By Abid Aslam WASHINGTON, Sep 17 (IPS) - The World Bank has yet to make good on promises to provide 'one-stop shopping' for companies seeking to do business in developing countries, say private financiers. Their complaints come a year after the Bank introduced streamlined procedures it said would ease private foreign investment in the South, and the former Soviet Union, and stimulate the domestic private sector. That initiative included a single phone number in Washington that companies could call to enquire about possible loans, political risk insurance, or credit guarantees for specific projects. In a new report, however, the Institute of International Finance (IIF) says the World Bank group should do more to share the risks of investing in the South and show ''a greater willingness...to 'work with the grain of the market'.'' This would strengthen the flows of private money to emerging markets, especially for infrastructure projects such as power plants and roads, it says. Such calls traditionally have gone against the grain of constituencies concerned about poverty and the environment. IIF director and senior adviser Lex Rieffel acknowledges that the Bank ''faces many conflicting priorities'' but argues that increased private investment in infrastructure will pave the way for reducing poverty by aiding faster economic growth. The World Bank group includes the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (IBRD), the World Bank's core institution; the International Development Association (IDA), the Bank's soft-loan window for the poorest countries; its private sector affiliate, the International Finance Corporation (IFC); and the Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency (MIGA), which provides political-risk insurance to corporations investing in developing countries. The IIF, a global association of private financial institutions, released its report by senior infrastructure finance executives Tuesday - just ahead of the annual meetings in Hong Kong of the governing boards of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The IIF predicts that net private capital flows to major emerging market economies will drop to 261 billion dollars this year, from last year's record of 281 billion dollars, before recovering slightly in 1998. The report says that partial risk guarantees currently being developed by the IFC ''may become the (Bank group's) most important risk-sharing product''. IFC guarantees would not require host country counter-guarantees to shield investors against political risks such as nationalisation, political violence, and currency restrictions. Such government promises are traditionally required by the IBRD, and are understood to have deterred companies and governments alike from using guarantees. The counter-guarantees have also been criticised by official and non-governmental sources on the grounds that they shield investors at the expense of Third World governments, who must shoulder the liability. IFC guarantees could also be used to cover ''sub-sovereign risks'' such as changes in municipal policies. Their value ''could reach 1-2 billion dollars a year by 1999, which could catalyse 10- 20 billion dollars per year of private finance,'' the IIF says. The report also urges development of IDA guarantees, which ''could be especially effective in promoting infrastructure privatisation in Africa.'' ''Our long-term objective is to be able to do these projects without official support or financing,'' Rieffel said. In the meanwhile, guarantees are ''helpful in making the transition from official loans to private direct financing.'' Dallara dismissed suggestions that such guarantees might constitute 'corporate welfare', or the use of public funds to subsidise private business, arguing instead that they would prove a valuable new product line for the Bank, in whose interest it is to stimulate private investment. Faced with declining demand for its standard loans and troubles in replenishing IDA, which relies on cash contributions from member states, the Bank in recent years has touted its worth as a partner of the private sector. The IIF report highlights problems faced by private project financiers when dealing with the World Bank group's organisational structure. It describes this as ''exceptionally fragmented'', confronting private companies with ''a confusing array of interlocutors.'' Senior bankers have differing views on whether Bank policies hamper private corporations on issues ranging from environmental assessment and mitigation to rules for resettling and rehabilitating communities forced from their homes by construction projects. Janice Warne, managing director of the Structured Finance Group at Salomon Brothers in New York, says some private clients have cited Bank requirements as a disincentive to investment, adding to the list of calculations on which investment decisions are made. ''I haven't seen any case that was significantly delayed or impeded by keeping up with these standards,'' counters Frank Hahn, deputy director for project finance at Dresdner Bank in Frankfurt. Hahn and Warne were among the IIF report's authors. In emerging markets, ''legal frameworks are not so developed, so it is helpful that supranationals set reasonable minimum standards,'' Hahn says, adding that ''substandard projects are not in anyone's interests.'' Questions of policy compliance, however, are not high on IIF members' list of concerns. ''Internal incoherence (at the Bank) is more of a disincentive'' to private investment, Dallara says. If private companies do not find the Bank's environmental and social requirements too onerous, this may be because the rules are often bent or skirted by the agency and its affiliates, civil society groups and people affected by infrastructure projects have complained. Since 1994, the Bank's independent Inspection Panel has registered at least 10 cases alleging the agency neglected or broke its own rules, or overlooked violations of those rules by clients who were legally bound to observe them. In most cases, the Panel has supported those claims. The Panel has no jurisdiction over IFC or MIGA, and the agencies have strenuously opposed efforts to enlarge the Panel's mandate or set up similar units at the agency's affiliates, despite Bank president James Wolfensohn's support for such initiatives. Critics are uneasy about the increasing 'streamlining' of specific project proposals - meaning that these are sped through the project approval process - even when the agencies themselves categorise these as most likely to have grave consequences for local habitats and communities. These include proposals for the IFC to finance a titanium dioxide mine in Sierra Leone and a gas- turbine power plant in Mexico's Yucatan state, leaked documents reveal. Bank policies can be a ''useful point of orientation'' Hahn said, underscoring calls for flexibility in setting, applying, and enforcing rules in ways private financiers deem as ''user- friendly''. (END/IPS/aa/mk/97) Origin: ROMAWAS/FINANCE-DEVELOPMENT/ ---- [c] 1997, InterPress Third World News Agency (IPS) All rights reserved May not be reproduced, reprinted or posted to any system or service outside of the APC networks, without specific permission from IPS. This limitation includes distribution via Usenet News, bulletin board systems, mailing lists, print media and broadcast. For information about cross- posting, send a message to <online@ips.org>. For information about print or broadcast reproduction please contact the IPS coordinator at <online@ips.org>. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:45:45 -0400 (EDT) From: TAIKAIN@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Sierr Leone List Mail Message-ID: <970921224337_-1598234059@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-09-18 12:43:11 EDT, you write: << Bocar Ndiaye wrote: > >Looking for Sierra Leone List Mail Address >Thank You >> Bocar you might want to go through www.sierr-leone.org or try sending an email to the SL listserver whose address is LEONENET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Be assured that you will have an almost instant reply and you will not be asked for any personal introduction. It is a live and vibrant discussion group. If you need further assistance please email me privately for further assistance. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:47:52 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] Message-ID: <9709220347.AA32678@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Latjor, you wrote: > Moe: > Let me first apologize to the rest of the folks for using what > could be perceived as name calling. The word I used in referring > to your friend was 'jackass', a word I borrowed from Dr. Yusef > Ben Jochannan (Doc. Ben). He often used the term during his > lectures when referring to Black folks who disrespect their > elders! Again my apologies. I understand... and apologies accepted. > As for the Fula translation of the proverbs, it is your job to > school me on your mother tongue.I will patiently wait for the > formal lessons to begin. I am very serious. It will be an honor for me to do so. Seriously, when do we begin? >There is much to be learnt from the Fula. Perhaps we could begin with >material already available on Fula culture and language. I presume you already have some material on hand...right? >Are you familiar with the works of Amadou Hampate Ba? I touched on it briefly some years back. But now that you've mentioned it, I will look into it some more. >I would be very interested in initiating a discourse on the work: >Kaidara. It goes to the very heart of traditional Fula cosmogony. Wonderful! Perhaps, we can even integrate the Wollof project that you already have at hand. I can't wait! I'll email you privately to discuss it some more. >By the way why don't you invite him to join our 'Bantaba'? I have extended your invitation to him. We will wait and see.... Thanks you. Regards, Moe S. Jallow ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:23:05 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Asbj=F8rn_Nordam?= <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: SV: SeneGambian Affairs Message-ID: <9B236DF9AF96CF11A5C94044F3219031101132@dkdifs02.dif.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but I will just say that when it comes to sport you can expect things like that. We danes like it very much every time the germans are beaten in football. No matter who do it, if they just do = it. Asbj=F8rn Nordam > Fra: Badara Joof[SMTP:Joof@winhlp.no] > Svar til: gambia-l@u.washington.edu > Sendt: 18. september 1997 17:49 > Til: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List > Emne: RE: SeneGambian Affairs >=20 > I could remember The African Nation Cup footbal > tournnament orgainized in Egypt (1986)?, 99% of the Gambian = population > was very happy when Senegal was eliminated by Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory > Coast). > I found it very silly, we are more than neigbours, these two = countries > were divided because of colonialism, but if not it was one country. > Buharry. >=20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:48:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nuha Jatta <b96nj@mh1.hh.se> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: death of Dembo Marong Message-ID: <199709220948.LAA06149@psi.hh.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-MD5: aBbyKvv36FLYIFeKq4nzng== Thanks for your infor. about Dembo Marongs death. He is my cousin. Our compounds are near each other. Nuha Jatta. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:28:57 +0000 From: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: please..... Message-ID: <34227009.77A2@ci.rech.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, The last time I raised this I got a)abuse b)told to respect my 'honeymoon' c)told to stop restricting information, amongst other responses. I have refrained from comment but I feel I must raise it again. If you have access to Reuters, Xinhua, Pana, etc., as part of you day to day work or your employer or school makes them available, you should check whether you or your employer or your school has arranged a right to re-distribute the information from those sources. If they have not then you should not re-distribute items from any copyright source to this list or any other. I know it is easy and I know that some of you feel it is your right, but even if you feel you are a poor, underprivileged, under informed, etc., individual you do not have the right to (re)use other peoples intellectual property without permission. Those of you in the USA would do well to investigate the current debate in the US Congress - which is provoked by what some people regard as wholesale piracy on the Internet - and which, if the legislation is enacted, would bring about what many accused me of, restriction of access to news. I mentioned in my original post the similar question of software piracy. Some of you write software for a living or hope to - are you happy to have anybody use it without either reference to your effort or without paying?? I re-emphasise that I am not trying to restrict discussion. It is always possible to refer to a news item without copying it in its entirety. Bye, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:56:01 +0000 From: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Telecommunications in Africa Message-ID: <342632A1.7D10@ci.rech.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Modou Jallow wrote: > Until then, does not anyone have information on this? > Actually the Ministry of Works, Communications, etc., organised the meeting. It was to mark the visit of a UNDP delegation to The Gambia when they signed a memorandum with the govt., under which UNDP will provide funding for up to three years for Internet development here. The idea is that the private sector will be as involved as possible. Gamtel will provide the basic access, using a subsidy of 50% from UNDP for a 512k line to the Internet, but will not monopolise the access, i.e. private sector ISPs (Internet Service Providers) will be encouraged. The access will be subsidised for the initial period (expected to start in early '98). IMO this gives a good start to the Internet here but its success will depend on the widest possible exposure being given to the real benefits, such as links between schools here and schools abroad, use of the Net to identify support organisations, use of the Net to identify and buy goods and services etc., and NOT access to 'fun' sites and the like which may cause the Imams to object <g> We at the GTMI will be giving 'walk in' demonstrations of the Internet, probably on Saturday mornings, to show members of the general public what it is and what is there. Bye, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:16:11 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] Message-ID: <01BCC75D.DE761DA0@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCC75D.DE7F4560" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC75D.DE7F4560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr.Payne! That was great! Thank you for the insight,and keep up the good work down there! Regards Bassss! -----Original Message----- From: M W Payne [SMTP:awo@mindspring.com] Sent: 19 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 04:01 a To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] Dr. Clarke's contribution in the field really does not need mention. It is surprising to find anyone, familiar with the field, who is unfamiliar with Dr. Clarke. Even in the years following his blindness, he has influenced thousands of scholars, still lecturing on the circuit, both within the U.S. and in Africa. His knowledge, memory and scholarship are legendary, and need no introduction. The numerous works he has written since his eye sight left, are all tributes to his acumen, and an instruction to us all. (If I were 10% as productive in my lifetime, I would have been ecstatic.) Although seriously irritated by the remarks (name calling) of "Bernard," I think that we can disagree without being disagreeable. The name calling, on all sides, should stop and the genuine discussion and dialogue should be increased. (I know that we all slip at some point, but this should be minimized.) In the spirit of community, let us all move forward to help elevate each other, and not tear down those whose lives have been dedicated to improving the global community. Thank you. M W Payne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:31:40 GMT0BST From: AISHA CAMARA <Camara@cardiff.ac.uk> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Unscribe Me Message-ID: <331E09A66AF@MAINCF2S.CF.AC.UK> Hello Everyone, It has been a real pleasure to be part of this Bantaba. Although I was a passive participant nevertheless I enjoyed the intriguing discussions. What is evident here is that we all interested in the development of our country. I will be returning home by the end of the month and if I could be of any assistance to any of the committees please do not hesitate to contact me on tel. 226225. or Box 553, UNFPA, Banjul, The Gambia. I will definately get in touch to be on board again as soon as I settle down. So Long and keep the debate on. I take the oppurtunity to congratulate the list managers for a job well done in making such forum availabe and also to thank them for their services in the past ten months. On that note please unscribe me with immediate effect. Cheers!!! Aisha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:33:15 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'Gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Barry's HoneyMoon,OVER! Message-ID: <01BCC786.05FAD140@dddn.qatar.net.qa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH [SMTP:kolls567@qatar.net.qa] Sent: 20 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 06:26 a To: 'barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu' Subject: RE: Barry's HoneyMoon,OVER! Mr.Barry! YOU WROTE: If they have not then you should not re-distribute items = from any copyright source to this list or any other. I know it is easy = and I =20 know that some of you feel it is your right, but even if you feel you are a poor, underprivileged, under informed, etc., individual you do not have the right to (re)use other peoples intellectual property without permission. So,WELCOME back! I hope you have had a nice HoneyMoon. And now that you = back at your Pet Subject again,could you please tell us what makes you = THINK that you, and not the people you finger-point at, would know about = and respect these ethical standards you are insisting on head-mastering = us about?=20 Thanks for the Info.about:Telecommunication and keep up the good work = down there! Regards Basss! -----Original Message----- From: Barry Mahon [SMTP:barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu] Sent: 17 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 03:29 a To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: please..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:46:05 EST5EDT From: "LAURA T RADER" <LTR6685@owl.forestry.uga.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Monogamy Message-ID: <56C6C054DF@owl.forestry.uga.edu> Hello folks, I've been away for a while. I'd love to know how this discussion got started. Keep in mind that I have only skimmed my 100,000 mesagges from the gambia-l. I hope that I do not bring up any points that have already been mentioned. It is my opinion that evolutionarily speaking we are not suppose to be monogamous (I'll find my evolution references later). HOWEVER, because of the ways our societies are set up we as humans have evolved a pattern of behavior branched away from our physical evolution. Imagine the havoc a chimpanze free for all would cause in modern society. Sexual behavior is more monitored by law and religion than by our tendencies. Or that is how it is suppose to appear. In order to keep the peace, raise well adjusted children, and continue on our recent path of "civilization", we needed to set up some rules and regulations. Sexual intimacy creates a bond between those involved. If you are forming this bond with everyone, it gets weaker and weaker. You are definately propigating the species with your genes but at the expense of great mental stress to those involved. If this is somewhere in the vicinity of the truth, there are even more questions. This may be the reason why men stray outside of their marriages. Why do women? Within a month a man could impregnate 30 women. Within a month a woman could only be impregnated once. 30:1? The numbers aren't statistically sound. Whereas men may unconsciously be carrying out a evolutionary mission (I know that men do not stray to get women pregnant. It's an unconscious force?? They may try everything they can to not have this happen. Usually the case), what is a woman doing when she searches outside of a relationship? As there may be a physically based pull for men, could there be a mentally based pull for women? I hope no one has been offended by the evolution discussion. Religion is how people make sense of their lives. Every religion has tended their own garden on this issue. I'm glad we are talking about this. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "N'Deye Marie N'Jie" <njie.1@osu.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: new member Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970922122314.227fc712@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Can you subscribe Michael Gomez to the newsgroup. His e-mail address is > mbg@guinness.som.cwru.edu > > >thanks, N'Deye Marie ----------------------------------- N'Deye Marie N'Jie Graduate Research Associate The Ohio State University Rm 260 Agricultural Engineering Bldg 590 Woody Hayes Drive Columbus, OH 43210 Fax: (614)292-9448 Phone: (614) 688-3445 (W) E-mail: njie.1@osu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:41:58 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: cassamance Message-ID: <TFSKAUDA@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I just want to submit my thoughts on this issue=2E Number one=2E I firmly believe The Gambia must and should take a more active role or =20 position(publicly) to avoid what Lebanon is facing today=2E God forbid , if any real fighting erupts the rebels of Casamance will =20 definitely operate from the Gambia and also Definitely the Senegalese =20 Government troops will retaliate back in the territories of The Gambia, =20 who will be caught between the two just like the Lebanese are caught =20 between the Palestinians and the Israelis in Lebanese soil=2E Number two=2E Casamance should NOT blame the Senegalese Government for it's =20 backwardness =2E The blame is with the colonial masters whose interests =20 were just in the areas they could get riches and also their security=2E =20 Remember British Administrators only developed the Area council offices =20 and their surroundings and notice only on river port towns like Kuntaur =20 or Bansang =2E But after Independence our own leaders still had the =20 mentality of their colonial masters and cared only for themselves and the =20= =20 areas they had access to( note Casamance was and still almost impassable =20 by roads- that tells you a lot- except for Zigunchor a sea port too=2E) Number three It is not too much for President Abdou Joof to give them some kind of =20 autonomy in exchange for some of their wealth=2E( but not a separate state= =20 -no definitely) If you look at the history of colonial financial budgets,=20= =20 basically they collect from all the regions and spend only on the capital =20= =20 areas and ports where the have security interest=2E -to defend the =20 COMMONWEALTH =2E Well it is very fitting to end with prayers for them so that Allah will =20 give them all the will power to solve this peacefully=2E We have enough =20 killings and wars already, we do not need another peace Habib ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:48:38 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: please..... Message-ID: <TFSKDBHM@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Barry As A Chamber of Commerce we have special permission to redistribute for =20 your information but thanks for bringing it up ,you are right Habib -----Original Message----- From: barry=2Emahon@ci=2Erech=2Elu Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 11:49 AM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: please=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- Dear All, =20 The last time I raised this I got a)abuse b)told to respect my 'honeymoon' c)told to stop restricting information, amongst other responses=2E I have refrained from comment but I feel I must raise it again=2E =20 If you have access to Reuters, Xinhua, Pana, etc=2E, as part of you day to day work or your employer or school makes them available, you should check whether you or your employer or your school has arranged a right to re-distribute the information from those sources=2E If they have not then you should not re-distribute items from any copyright source to this list or any other=2E I know it is easy and I know that some of you feel it is your right, but even if you feel you are a poor, underprivileged, under informed, etc=2E, individual you do not have the right to (re)use other peoples intellectual property without permission=2E =20 Those of you in the USA would do well to investigate the current debate in the US Congress - which is provoked by what some people regard as wholesale piracy on the Internet - and which, if the legislation is enacted, would bring about what many accused me of, restriction of access to news=2E =20 I mentioned in my original post the similar question of software piracy=2E Some of you write software for a living or hope to - are you happy to have anybody use it without either reference to your effort or without paying?? =20 I re-emphasise that I am not trying to restrict discussion=2E It is always possible to refer to a news item without copying it in its entirety=2E Bye, Barry ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:36:16 -0500 From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Monogamy -Reply Message-ID: <s422e25c.089@wpo.it.luc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Hi Bass, I guess I do not get the point you tried to make by stating that monogamy is boring. Would you please provide clarification. As I see it, monogamy is not any different from everything else; at some point everything in life gets boring. One of the unique things about us, humans, is our ability to find ways to create excitement whenever we feel bored. Just because monogamy can get boring is certainly no excuse for one to be promiscuous or to practice polygamy. One has to be willing to continuously try to inject excitement into a relationship, be it a monogamous or polygamous one, to keep it alive. Being committed to one person for eternity may not be easy for some people, but then again, nothing good in life comes easily. It is my belief that with commitment, love and honesty, monogamy can and does work. The key is for both parties to be fully committed to making the relationship work!! Ndey Kumba >>> BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 09/18/97 07:16am >>> Amy! Welcome back from your vacation.That aside,I want to straighten your LOGIC a little bit here.There is no contradiction between the fact that monogamy is GOOD and BORRING at the same time.There are lots of things in life that are very good but at the same time very UNinteresting.And I think Monogamy falls within that category;or at least that is what the behaviour of many men around the world seem to suggest.So,maybe you should tell us how women feel about sticking to only one partner for ever and ever Amen! Regards Basss! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:22:54 -0500 From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Monogamy -Reply Message-ID: <s422b517.034@wpo.it.luc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Hi Bass, I guess I do not get the point you tried to make by stating that monogamy is boring. Would you please provide clarification. As I see it, monogamy is not any different from everything else; at some point everything in life gets boring. One of the unique things about us, humans, is our ability to find ways to create excitement whenever we feel bored. Just because monogamy can get boring is certainly no excuse for one to be promiscuous or to practice polygamy. One has to be willing to continuously try to inject excitement into a relationship, be it a monogamous or polygamous one, to keep it alive. Being committed to one person for eternity may not be easy for some people, but then again, nothing good in life comes easily. It is my belief that with commitment, love and honesty, monogamy can and does work. The key is for both parties to be fully committed to making the relationship work!! >>> BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 09/18/97 07:16am >>> Amy! Welcome back from your vacation.That aside,I want to straighten your LOGIC a little bit here.There is no contradiction between the fact that monogamy is GOOD and BORRING at the same time.There are lots of things in life that are very good but at the same time very UNinteresting.And I think Monogamy falls within that category;or at least that is what the behaviour of many men around the world seem to suggest.So,maybe you should tell us how women feel about sticking to only one partner for ever and ever Amen! Regards Basss! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:54:52 +0200 From: chakys@image.dk To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] Message-ID: <199709221751.TAA00022@mail.image.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable I would like to give my opinion about Cheich Amadou Hampate Ba's work. I did read the book for a couple years ago.The matter of fact was ,in Kaidara, he is depicting a society where knowledge is more than anything. This is one of those aspects of the social life which can be referred to any other society. As far as the respect of the elders was concerned, his statement was:<< when an elder dies,it's just like a burning library >> It means that we can always learn from their wisdom. The reason why, i desapprouve our friend who called the professor John Henrik Clark as a ``jerk=B4=B4. He needs to reconsider his opinion about Pr. Henrik Clark. Regards Chakys. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:48:12 -0500 From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Monogamy -Reply Message-ID: <s4242994.002@wpo.it.luc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Bro, Below is the message that I tried to send to Gambia-L yesterday. For some strange reason, it has not shown up on the list, though my out box shows that it has be transferred. In any case, you may forward it to the list if wish. Charllifry Hi Bass, I guess I do not get the point you tried to make by stating that monogamy is boring. Would you please provide clarification. As I see it, monogamy is not any different from everything else; at some point everything in life gets boring. One of the unique things about us, humans, is our ability to find ways to create excitement whenever we feel bored. Just because monogamy can get boring is certainly no excuse for one to be promiscuous or to practice polygamy. One has to be willing to continuously try to inject excitement into a relationship, be it a monogamous or polygamous one, to keep it alive. Being committed to one person for eternity may not be easy for some people, but then again, nothing good in life comes easily. It is my belief that with commitment, love and honesty, monogamy can and does work. The key is for both parties to be fully committed to making the relationship work!! Ndey Kumba >>> BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 09/18/97 07:16am >>> Amy! Welcome back from your vacation.That aside,I want to straighten your LOGIC a little bit here.There is no contradiction between the fact that monogamy is GOOD and BORRING at the same time.There are lots of things in life that are very good but at the same time very UNinteresting.And I think Monogamy falls within that category;or at least that is what the behaviour of many men around the world seem to suggest.So,maybe you should tell us how women feel about sticking to only one partner for ever and ever Amen! Regards Basss! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:09:56 +0200 From: "Ebrima Kah" <ebrima@online.no> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <199709221819.UAA14489@online.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Gambians/None gambians ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:20:25 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Monogamy -Reply Message-ID: <01BCC79D.64840DA0@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCC79D.6494D680" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC79D.6494D680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Ndey Drammeh [SMTP:NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu] Sent: 19 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 03:48 O To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: RE: Monogamy -Reply Bro, Below is the message that I tried to send to Gambia-L yesterday. For some strange reason, it has not shown up on the list, though my out box shows that it has be transferred. In any case, you may forward it to the list if wish. Charllifry Hi Bass, I guess I do not get the point you tried to make by stating that monogamy is boring. Would you please provide clarification. As I see it, monogamy is not any different from everything else; at some point everything in life gets boring. One of the unique things about us, humans, is our ability to find ways to create excitement whenever we feel bored. Just because monogamy can get boring is certainly no excuse for one to be promiscuous or to practice polygamy. One has to be willing to continuously try to inject excitement into a relationship, be it a monogamous or polygamous one, to keep it alive. Being committed to one person for eternity may not be easy for some people, but then again, nothing good in life comes easily. It is my belief that with commitment, love and honesty, monogamy can and does work. The key is for both parties to be fully committed to making the relationship work!! Ndey Kumba >>> BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 09/18/97 07:16am >>> Amy! Welcome back from your vacation.That aside,I want to straighten your LOGIC a little bit here.There is no contradiction between the fact that monogamy is GOOD and BORRING at the same time.There are lots of things in life that are very good but at the same time very UNinteresting.And I think Monogamy falls within that category;or at least that is what the behaviour of many men around the world seem to suggest.So,maybe you should tell us how women feel about sticking to only one partner for ever and ever Amen! Regards Basss! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:27:01 -0700 From: MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <m.gassama@swipnet.se> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down Message-ID: <34273705.329F@swipnet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Moe! It would be nice but I believe Momodou Sidibeh=B4s holidays are over and he has started school. I am labouring to finish my dissertation. I don=B4t know if the discussion can be done justice if we attempt to tackle it when we lack the time to really get into it. It would however be nice if other list members can carry on the discussion.This would provide views probaly hitherto unheard. I hope this happens. = Buharry. P.S. How are you? It=B4s been some time. I hope everything=B4s o.k. with y= ou. D.S. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= Modou Jallow wrote: > = > I think we ought to revisit the debate between Agriculture versus > Information Technology in the Gambia ... won't you say? > = > Where are Momodous Buharry and Sidibeh???? > = > Also, whatever happened to the Gambia Shadow List members...Pa Musa and= > Co. in the Gambia? In black American english (slang) we say: Wha'Zup??= ?? > = > Have a nice weekend...well, what's left of it anyway. > = > Regards, > = > Moe S. Jallow > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:20:25 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Monogamy Message-ID: <01BCC7A6.DE2693E0@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCC7A6.DE4825A0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC7A6.DE4825A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Laura! =20 Below is the piece that precipitated the debate over whether MONOGAMY = is boring or not,esp.for men.Apparently,Andrea,Ndey Kumba and Amy are in = strong opposition.Well,I am not a polygamist myself but I know for a = fact that most men (IN ALL THE CONTINENTS),whether they admit it or = not,would like to be able to have more than one mate at some point.Now I = don't know whether that is the same way women feel about this. So,thanks Laura for the Evolutionary perspective and keep up the good = work down there! REGARDS BASSSS! Hello! How are the brothers & sisters of Gambia-l doing? You didn't hear from = me the whole week because I was on holiday. I was reading through the=20 internet and I was very suprised when I read this statement: "monogamy=20 is boring". I wonder how can a person make such a statement.All these years people=20 are talking day & night about aids and some still dare making such a=20 statement! I think that monogamy can only survive if the couple understands one=20 another and try to share together. You have to express your likes and=20 dislikes and accept one for what one is. But if you think that roaming=20 about & chasing every one you meet is the only valuable thing in life you are wrong. Every one in this world should know the importance of=20 his life and other's. So you have to respect your commitment and be=20 serious.=20 I know that you all have an idea about this subject. please I would be very happy to share your opinions. This Baantabaa is created to express=20 & exchange ideas. So you are welcome to express yourself. Till then A Bientot De la part de AMY=20 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:21:42 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: kolls567@qatar.net.qa, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Monogamy Message-ID: <TFSMXUKS@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Polygamy is allowed depending on the circumstances of the marriage=2E For =20= =20 example if the woman cannot conceive or barren and if a man is on a trip =20 for a long period of time ( not just days or weeks) he is allowed to =20 marry locally where he is temporary residing in order not to commit =20 adultery=2E So it is not for flings as many think=2E Also because children out of wedlock cannot inherit from the father (in =20 Islam according to the Sharia) it is advisable to marry the mother of =20 that child before she conceives or become pregnant in order to avoid =20 embarrassment to the child in the future=2E Basically these are some of the main reasons for multiple wives not just =20 sex drive=2E Sometimes one marries a widow to allow her children to have a=20= =20 father or home out of mercy =2E Please do not misinterpret this for justifying having many wives in one =20 house!! By the way it is also highly discouraged unless you can threat all the =20 wives equally which is almost impossible nowadays (possible before not =20 now) With peace hdg -----Original Message----- From: kolls567@qatar=2Enet=2Eqa Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 3:34 PM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: RE: Monogamy << File: FILE0001=2EATT >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- Laura! =20 Below is the piece that precipitated the debate over whether MONOGAMY is boring or not,esp=2Efor men=2EApparently,Andrea,Ndey Kumba and Amy are in =20= =20 strong opposition=2EWell,I am not a polygamist myself but I know for a fact that most men (IN ALL THE CONTINENTS),whether they admit it or =20 not,would like to be able to have more than one mate at some point=2ENow I don't know whether that is the same way women feel about this=2E So,thanks Laura for the Evolutionary perspective and keep up the good =20 work down there! REGARDS BASSSS! Hello! How are the brothers & sisters of Gambia-l doing? You didn't hear from me the whole week because I was on holiday=2E I was reading through the internet and I was very suprised when I read this statement: "monogamy is boring"=2E I wonder how can a person make such a statement=2EAll these years people are talking day & night about aids and some still dare making such a statement! I think that monogamy can only survive if the couple understands one another and try to share together=2E You have to express your likes and dislikes and accept one for what one is=2E But if you think that roaming about & chasing every one you meet is the only valuable thing in life you are wrong=2E Every one in this world should know the importance of his life and other's=2E So you have to respect your commitment and be serious=2E I know that you all have an idea about this subject=2E please I would be very happy to share your opinions=2E This Baantabaa is created to express & exchange ideas=2E So you are welcome to express yourself=2E Till then A Bientot De la part de AMY ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www=2Ehotmail=2Ecom ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:41:47 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down Message-ID: <9709222041.AA47536@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Buharry, I figured you must be busy this time around and that's why I have been bothering you lately. Good luck with your dissertation! Regards, Moe S. Jallow ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Moe! > It would be nice but I believe Momodou Sidibeh=B4s holidays are > over and he has started school. I am labouring to finish my > dissertation. I don't know if the discussion can be done justice if we > attempt to tackle it when we lack the time to really get into it. It > would however be nice if other list members can carry on the > discussion.This would provide views probaly hitherto unheard. I hope > this happens. > > > Buharry. > P.S. > How are you? It's been some time. I hope everything is o.k. with you. > > D.S. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:27:22 -0400 (EDT) From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Thanks! Message-ID: <970922165224_1163772637@emout18.mail.aol.com> Gambia-l: It tends to be a great experience when List members run into each other across the country/globe, given the impersonal nature of the "bantaba." Such an experience was my meeting with Jabou Joh and family at the 15th annual African Street Festival in Nashville last weekend. Jabou is a very kind person, to say the least. And, as it turned out, we were neighbors in Gunjur (The Gambia's most livable city--according to a poll of 1,000 Gunjurians). :) On another note, I wish to thank all those who sent me birthday greetings, particularly Sarjo Bojang, Malanding Jaiteh, and Ancha Bala-Gaye. Salaam! Amadou Scattred Janneh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:36:31 -0400 (EDT) From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: EC / ACP info Message-ID: <970922170452_-861437716@emout03.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.21072.emout03.mail.aol.com.874962292" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.21072.emout03.mail.aol.com.874962292 Content-ID: <0_21072_874962292@emout03.mail.aol.com.9863> Content-type: text/plain Gambia-l: More info for your consumption, with apologies to Barry! Amadou --PART.BOUNDARY.0.21072.emout03.mail.aol.com.874962292 Content-ID: <0_21072_874962292@emout03.mail.aol.com.9864> Content-type: text/plain; name="ACP12" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PARIS, Sept 22 (Reuter) - The European Union's first special tender for 3= 00,000 tonnes of free-market wheat sales to African, Caribbean and Pacifi= c countries will be on October 2, French officials said on Monday. = =0D The tender was agreed by an EU committee last week, alongside a parallel = one for 225,133 tonnes of exports from German intervention stores, schedu= led to start on September 25. = =0D The closing date for both tenders is December 18. In a slight modification to details released last week, officials said th= e Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco would be valid destina= tions for the free-market tender only, not both tenders as earlier announ= ced. = =0D Following is the full list of countries eligible for the preferential whe= at exports, which are part of a package of trade benefits offered by the = EU under its Lome Convention agreements with a total of some 70 developin= g countries. The ACP countries listed for preferential subsidies in the current measure are drawn from and around Africa, according to details issued by the ONIC French cereals office. =0D Mauritania Mali Niger Senegal Burkina Faso Gambia Guinea-Buissau Guinea Cape Verde Sierra Leone Liberia Ivory Coast Ghana Togo Chad Cent.Afr.Republic Benin Cameroon Equat.Guinea Sao Tome Gabon Congo Dem.Rep Congo(ex.Zaire) Rwanda Burundi Seychelles Comoros Madagascar Mauritius Angola Zambia Malawi Mozambique Botswana Zimbabwe Lesotho Swaziland Djibouti Ethiopia Eritrea Ceuta/Melilla (enclaves; free-market tender only) =0D 08:58 09-22-97 =0D --PART.BOUNDARY.0.21072.emout03.mail.aol.com.874962292-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:31:35 -0400 (EDT) From: ahmed tijan deen <tijan@wam.umd.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: add a new member Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.970922182539.18345A-100000@rac2.wam.umd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Will you please add Sal Barry to the list his address is Sxb04673@student.astate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:11:30 -0400 (EDT) From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Casamance Update Message-ID: <970922201022_587951468@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.7496.emout14.mail.aol.com.874973421" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.7496.emout14.mail.aol.com.874973421 Content-ID: <0_7496_874973422@emout14.mail.aol.com.12517> Content-type: text/plain Gambia-l: there I go again! Amadou Scattred Janneh --PART.BOUNDARY.0.7496.emout14.mail.aol.com.874973421 Content-ID: <0_7496_874973422@emout14.mail.aol.com.12518> Content-type: text/plain; name="CASAM" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DAKAR, Sept 22 (Reuter) - At least 5,000 villagers have been displaced by= separatist violence in Senegal's Casamance province and are sheltering i= n the main town of Ziguinchor, Red Cross officials said on Monday. = =0D ``We have registered 769 families in Ziguinchor and each family has at le= ast between five and 10 people,'' said Jerome Dasilva, head of the local = Red Cross office. = =0D ``All the displaced people are from villages near the border with Guinea-= Bissau,'' he told Reuters by telephone. = =0D The villagers were displaced by a flareup in fighting between rebels of t= he Movement of Democratic Forces of Casamance and government soldiers in = the southern province. = =0D Scores of people on both the army and rebel sides have died since clashes= intensified following the killing of 25 soldiers by guerrillas on August= 19. = =0D Officials say civilians are now asking for weapons from the central gover= nment to defend themselves from armed groups. = =0D Despite the mounting violence, the Dakar government said it favoured a pe= aceful solution as long as this did not include independence for the tour= ist and farming province. = =0D The guerrillas took up arms in 1982 alleging that the province had been n= eglected by the Dakar government. = =0D 18:50 09-22-97 =0D --PART.BOUNDARY.0.7496.emout14.mail.aol.com.874973421-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:23:39 -0400 (EDT) From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Female Condom Studies Message-ID: <970922201342_70178286@emout20.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.19435.emout20.mail.aol.com.874973622" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.19435.emout20.mail.aol.com.874973622 Content-ID: <0_19435_874973622@emout20.mail.aol.com.12132> Content-type: text/plain Gambia-l: ....shifting gears a bit... Amadou --PART.BOUNDARY.0.19435.emout20.mail.aol.com.874973622 Content-ID: <0_19435_874973622@emout20.mail.aol.com.12133> Content-type: text/plain; name="CONDOM" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CHICAGO, Sept. 22 /PRNewswire/ -- The Female Health Company (Amex: FHC) r= eports that recently released results from a UNAIDS supported study of se= x workers in Thailand showed that when the female condom was made availab= le as an extra option to the male condom there was a 34% reduction in the= mean incidence of sexually-transmitted diseases (STDs) compared with gro= ups where only the male condom was made available. The study, which comp= ared a group of 37 sex establishments where only the male condom was an o= ption to a group of 34 sex establishments where both male and female cond= oms were available, also found that female condom use contributed to a 25= % reduction in the proportion of unprotected sex acts compared with the m= ale-condom-only group. = =0D In its new document, "The Female Condom and AIDS," UNAIDS noted other stu= dies which found that women who were not sex workers also thought the fem= ale condom was acceptable. Most recently, UNAIDS-supported research cond= ucted in Costa Rica, Indonesia, Mexico and Senegal, indicated that amongs= t other things, women found that introduction of the female condom into a= relationship gave them an opportunity to communicate about safer sex mor= e successfully than before. Women also found it more empowering, as it i= s a protection device they can use themselves. Female condoms were parti= cularly more popular where men were reluctant to use male condoms or wher= e women did not trust men to use male condoms correctly. = =0D The Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) is a leading advo= cate for global action on HIV/AIDS. It brings together six UN agencies i= n a common effort to fight the epidemic. = =0D The Female Health Company entered a multi-year contract with UNAIDS to pr= ovide the female condom at a special price based on global public sector = volume. = =0D The Female Health Company, based in Chicago, owns certain worldwide right= s to the female condom, is dedicated to identifying, developing and marke= ting unique products that will help women across the world stay healthy a= nd enhance their lives. = =0D SOURCE The Female Health Company = =0D CO: The Female Health Company; UNAIDS = =0D ST: Illinois = =0D IN: HEA MTC = =0D SU: = =0D 09/22/97 08:29 EDT http://www.prnewswire.com =0D --PART.BOUNDARY.0.19435.emout20.mail.aol.com.874973622-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:56:11 -0500 From: Ndey Drammeh <NDRAMME@wpo.it.luc.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Monogamy -Reply Message-ID: <s426a347.022@wpo.it.luc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Hello Everyone, I am really sorry for sending my posting regarding monogamy several times. For some reason, I thought the initial message did not go through and ended up sending it too many times. Again sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused. Ndey Kumba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:46:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <970922223834_-730678922@emout08.mail.aol.com> Who is this moron, and why does he keep harping on this point? Once a news release hits the papers, whether from Reuters or any other source, that paper can be picked up and sent to anyone anywhere in the world. How is this different and what is Barry's interest in this matter? Jabou. In a message dated 9/22/97 5:05:06 AM, you wrote: <<Dear All, The last time I raised this I got a)abuse b)told to respect my 'honeymoon' c)told to stop restricting information, amongst other responses. I have refrained from comment but I feel I must raise it again. If you have access to Reuters, Xinhua, Pana, etc., as part of you day to day work or your employer or school makes them available, you should check whether you or your employer or your school has arranged a right to re-distribute the information from those sources. If they have not then you should not re-distribute items from any copyright source to this list or any other. I know it is easy and I know that some of you feel it is your right, but even if you feel you are a poor, underprivileged, under informed, etc., individual you do not have the right to (re)use other peoples intellectual property without permission. Those of you in the USA would do well to investigate the current debate in the US Congress - which is provoked by what some people regard as wholesale piracy on the Internet - and which, if the legislation is enacted, would bring about what many accused me of, restriction of access to news. I mentioned in my original post the similar question of software piracy. Some of you write software for a living or hope to - are you happy to have anybody use it without either reference to your effort or without paying?? I re-emphasise that I am not trying to restrict discussion. It is always possible to refer to a news item without copying it in its entirety. Bye, Barry ----------------------- Headers -------->> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:12:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Thanks! Message-ID: <970922230303_-363535358@emout07.mail.aol.com> Amadou and Family, And wasn't that festival dominated by Gambians? So many of the vendors were Gambians. l even met a lady from Serekunda who is a neighbour to one of my sisters. She travels to the U.S each summer and spends her time doing all the festivals around the country, and then leaves for Gambia in the fall. My best friend of many years, who is a native Atlantan, made a comment about how enterprising Gambians were. This is true. And l swear Gunjur IS! the most livalble CITY in Gambia. Jabou Joh In a message dated 9/22/97 4:28:56 PM, you wrote: <<Gambia-l: It tends to be a great experience when List members run into each other across the country/globe, given the impersonal nature of the "bantaba." Such an experience was my meeting with Jabou Joh and family at the 15th annual African Street Festival in Nashville last weekend. Jabou is a very kind person, to say the least. And, as it turned out, we were neighbors in Gunjur (The Gambia's most livable city--according to a poll of 1,000 Gunjurians). :) On another note, I wish to thank all those who sent me birthday greetings, particularly Sarjo Bojang, Malanding Jaiteh, and Ancha Bala-Gaye. Salaam! Amadou Scattred Janneh
3 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Momodou	Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 15:27:15 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:15:40 PDT From: "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: messed the postings up. Message-ID: <19970926151602.28729.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain HI HEIDI, I wrote you yesterday, but now, i think i will have to do it all over again. it's what happens when i try to do so much in so little time, something had to go wrong. first, i wrote everything then tried to attach my essay to it. that's when the troubles began. i somehow had it formatted in one mode and retrieved it in another. you should have seen the greek (to me!) that came up. a friend tried to fix it, but to no good. i then tried to send just my reply (privately to you) without it and it took forever. i then tried to send it through the list, but it was still slow and i had to go to work. so i left my friend with it to keep trying to post it. i guess he wasn't successful too. anyway, send me you physical address and i will mail you a copy of my short and unfocused essay. i will try to write about the stuff you mentioned in your reply to my query this weekend.. probably tomorrow morning. let me know if you did get the last posting. i request permissino to print your reply and discuss it with my sociology class professor. A BARAKA...... CHI JAMMA... n j a g a... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:15:43 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: messed the postings up. Message-ID: <01BCCAB0.9E38AAE0@ddcu.qatar.net.qa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCAB0.9E5A3CA0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCAB0.9E5A3CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Njaga! I was going to refer you to Heidi's Paper on Female Circumcision in the = Gambia,but I can see that she herself has contacted you.If your = Prof.still has questions that are not covered by Heidi's work,just feel = free to forward them to me. I would however want to clarify one major ignorance that surrounds the = dicourse about Circumcision,even in supposedly very enlightened = circles.Circumcision was not an invention of Islam or any of the = revealed religions,for that matter.Abraham,the first patriarch and the = first prophet of the revealed religions went to Egypt as a migrant = worker around three thousand years before the birth of Christ.He had = neither been circumcised nor known about it before he came to Egypt.It = was only when he wanted to marry the black Egyptian woman by the name = Hagar as a consequence of the barrenness of her cousin and first wife = Sarah that he was confronted with the need to get circumcised(purified = and cleaned) because black,circumcised women in Egypt didn't get = married to Uncircumcised men.That was how the Jews learnt about and = started to get circumcised.As for Islam or the Arabs,they got = circumcision from the person all of them trace their origin = to,namely,Ishmael.And that person is non other than the only child of = HAGAR(the black Egyptian woman,the second wife of Abraham) and the first = son of Abraham. So,Circumcision,good or bad,is of black origin.Its not from Islam or = Judaism or whatever,and the Black Ancestors who invented it cannnot be = responsible for various abuses that subsequent generations and cultures = have used it for.But that is another story altogether. And keep up educating your prof.down there! Regards Bassss! -----Original Message----- From: NJAGA JAGNE [SMTP:jagnen25@hotmail.com] Sent: 24 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 06:16 a To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: messed the postings up. HI HEIDI, I wrote you yesterday, but now, i think i will = have to do it all over again. it's what happens when i try = to do so much in so little time, something had to go wrong. = first, i wrote everything then tried to attach my essay to =20 it. that's when the troubles began. i somehow had it formatted = =20 in one mode =20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:28:33 -0500 From: Numukunda Darboe <ndarboe@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: News about Gambia... (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970924224912.1c474bfa@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:06:39 -07 =20 Subject: News about Gambia... Gambia's Religious Minister Accused Of Death Threats=20 September 15, 1997=20 BANJUL - Members of a Muslim sect who left Gambia last week have accused Gambian Interior and Religious Affairs Minister Momodou Bojang of having issued a death threat against them.=20 In a statement released here on September 9, the sect members alleged that Bojang summoned the former secretary-general of the Pakistan-based Ahmadiyya sect, Lamin Jawara, to a meeting and told him that he would have killed all the members of the group were he the president of Gambia. Bojang was accused in the statement of telling Jawara: "If I was the Gambian president (junta leader Yahya Jammeh), I would have you all put to death because you are infidels." After members of the group left the small West African country, Bojang accused the Ahmadiyya of wanting to cause panic in Gambia, where some 50 members of the sect had served as doctors, priests and teachers for more than 20 years. Bojang also said "the sectors of education and teaching are the responsibility of the government, which will take all measures to deal with the situation." The statement by Ahmadiyya sect members said that two Ahmadi doctors who had left Banjul planned to return to the country.=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright =A9 1997 All Africa Press Service. Distributed via Africa News Online(www.africanews.org). For information about the content or for permission to redistribute, publish or use for broadcast, contact All Africa Press Service at the link above. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:34:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <libSDtMail.9709260934.10444.sarian@groucho> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: IlQCYzX2lPcwZEDDsrSyyw== We could set up aliases for those interested in getting the news this way Gambia-l is totaly bypassed with these forwarded news. If someone coordinates all the interested parties I could set up an alias that will go directly to these list members. Let me know your thoughts on this. regards, sarian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:41:25 -0500 From: Numukunda Darboe <ndarboe@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970924230204.1c47bed4@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:53 PM 9/25/97 +0200, you wrote: >On 25 Sep 97 at 2:32, ASJanneh@aol.com wrote: > >> Gambia-l: >> >> Ordinarily, I would have continued distributing relevant news pieces >> to Gambia-l ESPECIALLY because of Barry's admonition or outcry. But >> our relationship with the University of Washington and Tony Loum's >> position are far more important than any benefits to be derived from >> doing that. > >Thats right, the list is too important to take the risk of being >shut down and I agree that Tony's position is also far more >important. We should therefore stop sending copyright material to >the list with immideate effect. > Hey Guys, I am extremely sorry to have forwarded that last posting of mine. I did not read this by the time I forwarded the article. Numukunda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:11:09 -0400 From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) Message-ID: <C69DB1B2BFFBCF11B5D300000000000152DD24@Cry1.prc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Francis - I recollect a discussion on this issue and I for one was ready to be a part of that drive to get the UN to do something. I think it a good idea still. I also believe that there are others who are ready for someone to take the leadership on this - I spoke with others who are not on the list when the issue was first raised and they are in unity with any drive on the subject. I take you still feel strongly and are ready to do something. Let's do. Ready to work for some of our stolen resources (laundered funds) to be returned - Ya Soffie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:29:03 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <342C1B0F.24125465@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sarian Loum wrote: > We could set up aliases for those interested in getting the news this > way Gambia-l is totaly bypassed with these forwarded news. If someone > coordinates all the interested parties I could set up an alias that > will go directly to these list members. Let me know your thoughts on > this. I must say I find the developments in this issue very interesting. It seems as though many of us have no problem "breaking" the laws that pertain to the redistribution of copyright material but are now acting to shield or protect the list from any potential legal action. I wonder what the true protagonists of copyright laws have to say about all this. It also seems to me that the will of the people to keep informed here is greater than any law regardless of its enforcement or the reality and the practicality of its enforcement. This reminds me of the time when slaves in some parts of America were barred by law from receiving an education and an underground movement began for the greater good. UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan's and Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni's quotes from an IPS story Momodou Camara once forwarded says it all: Annan: ''Access is crucial. The capacity to receive, download and share information through electronic networks, the ability to publish newspapers without censorship or restrictions, the freedom to communicate freely across national boundaries ... must become fundamental freedoms for all,'' ''Communications and information technology have enormous potential, especially for developing countries, and in furthering sustainable development,'' added Annan. ''But that also means that the information gap is the new dividing line between the haves and have nots, those forging new paths to development and those increasingly left behind.'' Museveni: ''In the past, unequal access to knowledge incited the strong to aggress the weak,'' he said. ''It is only the universalisation of knowledge that will create a world equilibrium where nobody will have the edge of knowledge to use to the detriment of others. ''... the aggressive instinct in man is essentially calculative. You only attack the weak, you only attack the backward without access to knowledge. It is not profitable to aggress the equally knowledgeable who, most probably, will be equally strong.'' I would just caution, for the sake of the "new-found" integrity of the list and especially to the list managers, that all this list wide planning puts the list in an even more vulnerable position since it is now being used not simply as a conduit of the illegal redistribution of copyright material but now as a forum to "conspire" against copyright laws. It might be safer to begin your efforts at this planning stage on an underground level now rather than later. If these efforts are successful, however, I would also like to note that we will in effect see the birth of a separate "shadow list". While I was not around then, it looks as though we would indeed be stepping back to a structure of the list when it began before it became an official listserv of the University of Washington. How this will help in the greater cause of openly sharing and discussing our views to the widest possible membership and audience is a question we must ask ourselves? Just some thoughts. Peace. Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:34:11 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <01BCCAD4.E3F08700@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCAD4.E3F82820" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCAD4.E3F82820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I enjoyed it all the same! Regards Bassss! -----Original Message----- From: Numukunda Darboe [SMTP:ndarboe@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu] Sent: 24 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 07:41 a To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Hey Guys, I am extremely sorry to have forwarded that last posting of mine. I did not read this by the time I forwarded the article. Numukunda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:34:20 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: New member Message-ID: <19970926203537.AAA14262@LOCALNAME> Gambia-l, Sulayman Gassama has been added to the list. Welcome to the Gambia-l we look forward to you contributions. Please send a brief introduction to the list. My best regards to your family and other Stockholmers. Momodou Camara ***************************************************** http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:53:55 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <9709262053.AA66030@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sarian, you wrote: > We could set up aliases for those interested in getting the news this way > Gambia-l is totaly bypassed with these forwarded news. If someone coordinates > all the interested parties I could set up an alias that will go directly to > these list members. Let me know your thoughts on this. > > regards, > > sarian While I have joined the group of those who "obey under protest" to not forward articles to the list, I see the above message as the same as the copyright issue we have been talking about. As with any copyright material, the purposes are to protect the author's right (for commercial benefit) and protection right (to control how a work is used). Doesn't reproducing a copyright material without permission make it illegal? So what are we trying to do here? IMO to have an emailed copy is not the same as having the copyright copy. What happens when somebody decides to post E-mail (by way of commenting or criticizing) you sent to them to the list? Is this also not a violation?? We have to remember that facts and ideas cannot be copyrighted but their expression and structure can. So, shouldn't we just write the facts in our own words????? Regards, Moe S. Jallow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:08:12 +0100 (BST) From: Momodou Njie <M.Njie@reading.ac.uk> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Unsubscribe me. Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.970926214918.4807B-100000@suma3.reading.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Hi folks, I regret to say, but I was definitely a passive member of the list and feel embarassed for not being able to contribute to the discussions in any way. All the same, as a staff of the Gambia College, I pledge my active participation in subsequent discussions, this time, from base. Regards to everyone and thanks for your interest in the Gambia. Bye! Njie. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:20:36 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Misuse of the N---er Word (part 1) (fwd) Message-ID: <9709262120.AA64798@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a forwarded message from Bernard Weston: Regards, Moe S. Jallow ======================================================================= Forwarded message: >From bernard@raleigh.ibm.com Fri Sep 26 15:51:56 1997 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: ATLGSDC From: "Bernard Weston"<bernard@raleigh.ibm.com> To: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu Message-Id: <8525651E.0064693E.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:52:28 -0400 Subject: Misuse of the N---er Word (part 1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mohammad' please post my reply to the "netters". Thanks brother. Yusulf I often listen to a white conservative radio station in order to get a better perspective on how white people perceive me as an African American. Last night while driving home from work I tuned in to 105.7 out of Alanta. The nightly airing of a popular talk show entitled "John and Ken" was in process and guess who they had as their guess (by telephone) You guessed it: Kathryn Williams, curator at the Museum of African American History in Flint, Mich. I must say that I left work with no anger and in a good mood, yet by the time I had reached my destination my anger was in a fever's pitch. With all due respect to my elder, Mrs. Kathryn Williams, Mrs. Williams was a very poor argumentator for an issue as great as this. Mrs. Williams freely admitted that she has never had the N----- word used in an offensive manner towards her. I have!! She verbally lacked the ability to make a convincing argument to an audience of conservative whites that are ignorant of how and why this word could cause a person's death. Mrs. Williams crusade is noble and 200 years pass due, yet she should pass the baton to someone more articulated and passionate in its defense. Once when I was a 17 years old and working as a dishwasher in Austin, Texas, I was walking home from my night shift of a restaurant. As I walked pass a late night fast food place, there was a group of drunken white males outside, they were larger than I and I was out numbered. One of the males, yelled at me: "**, Hey **, you know what a ** is, its someone that is ignorant". I was scared and angry. I continued to walk until I came along a bottle on the side of the road. I picked it up and I threw it at the drunken fool. The group of males chased me all the way home. They dare not have entered my neighborhood for my neighborhood was all black. The persons were fools, but apparently they were not stupid. Because of the above incident, the word "**" (when coming from a non black person) could definitely motivate me to harm the person from which it came. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:25:44 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Misuse of the N---er Word (part 2) (fwd) Message-ID: <9709262125.AA36196@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a a forwarded message from Bernard Weston: Regards, Moe S. Jallow ======================================================================= >From bernard@raleigh.ibm.com Fri Sep 26 16:59:05 1997 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: ATLGSDC From: "Bernard Weston"<bernard@raleigh.ibm.com> To: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu Message-Id: <8525651E.006D4AB2.00@ATLMAIL.IBMUS2.IBM.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:59:26 -0400 Subject: Misuse of the N---er Word (part 2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Continued: Mrs Williams entertained blatantly ignorant white callers as they called in to give their assailing opinions on the subject. Mrs. Williams could even be heard laughing along with the radio talk show host. I had difficulty believing she believed in the mission she acquired. I felt that the interview or conversation should never have taken place and at the bare minimum Mrs. Williams should have slammed the phone receiver down in "John and Ken's ear" The response of Merriam-Webster, Incorporated, Frederick C. Mish Vice President and Editor in Chief, Is the typical response that one peering through White - Christian eyes would formulate. We hear such rhetoric often on a wide spectrum of topics, Yet The Christian African American population is also to blame. I say this for having been a Christian converted to Islam, (Non Nation of Islam member). African American Christians ask for respect. They ask for fair hiring practices in Corporate America. They ask for the fair representation in the American political process. And now they are asking for this word to be removed or redefined differently. What I have learned as a 33 year old Black male is that White people are reluctant to respect such numerous social requests. One has to demand it and leave no option for any response other than "yes". The Italians once unofficially owned New York City. They did not ask for such power, They took it. I am not an advocate of the Mafia, nor do I condone violence, Yet I resent having to "march" for freedom or write my congressman to ask he support a issue that African Americans hold dear to heart. The Japanese Americans received reparations for their imprisonment following world war II. They did not ask for it, they demanded it and refused to settle for anything less. They were imprisoned for less that three years. African slaves were imprisoned for over 200 years. Yet, African American Christians, whom are a majority of the African American population, continue to place their hats in their hands, bow their heads down and humble themselves as they go to "The Man" to ask for yet another compliance or correction of a injustice that never should have taken place to start with. Yusulf Mohammad (formerly Bernard Weston) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:32:19 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <01BCCADC.DCF83080@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCADC.DD0772C0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCADC.DD0772C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Latir! It is not the love of breaking the Law per se that has given rise to = the BUSH LIST.I think many,if not most, of us have come to realise that = for a stranger to just walk in here and tell us How Not To Run our place = is an assault on our souvreignity.Edward Said has taught us that = throughout history,those who decide how the Land is run,eventually = decide the fate and destiny of those on the land.And this is not the = first time that strangers have decided that they know best how to run = our place for us,or at least tell us how to and how not to run it.We = have read too much history to allow that to happen again! And keep up the good work down there! Regards Bassss! -----Original Message----- From: Latir Downes-Thomas [SMTP:latir@earthlink.net] Sent: 24 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 11:29 a To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Sarian Loum wrote: =20 > We could set up aliases for those interested in getting the news I must say I find the developments in this issue very interesting. It seems as though many of us have no problem "breaking" the laws that pertain to the redistribution of copyright material but are now acting to shield or protect the list from any potential legal action. I wonder what the true protagonists of copyright laws have to say about all this. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:29:50 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: The '**' word and the dictionary 'makers' (fwd) Message-ID: <9709262129.AA49620@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is another forwarded message from a friend of mine name Seewoo fro the Sierra leonean List. Regards, Moe S. Jallow =========================================================================== Forwarded message: > From owner-leonenet@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Fri Sep 26 15:21:55 1997 > Priority: normal > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 > Message-Id: <4E89460830@omega.statistik.uni-dortmund.de> > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:43:03 +0200 > Reply-To: A Discussion of Sierra Leonean Issues <LEONENET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> > Sender: A Discussion of Sierra Leonean Issues <LEONENET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> > From: "Osman A. Sankoh" <SANKOH@OMEGA.STATISTIK.UNI-DORTMUND.DE> > Subject: The '**' word and the dictionary 'makers' > To: LEONENET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > > > This article was forwared to me from a friend. > > I hope that Mallam will have his own ideas :-))). > > Regards, > > Seewoo > > Lieber Seewoo, thanks so much for the article. > > Yes indeed, such can't pass through my eyes without comment. > In the first place, one would state with emphasis that the > dictionary 'writers' and 'makers' are predominantly white > people. I will select a few sections of the publishers' > response and comment. > > > "Anyone can be a **, A ** is any ignorant > > person," Kathryn Williams, curator at the Museum of > > African American History in Flint, Mich, always > > explained. > > Ignorant Kathryn Williams indeed! > > > When the boy returned, he read with disappoiment, > > "1: a black person 2: ...member of any dark-skinned > > race." > > > Williams was apalled. > > That's the logical outcome. > > > gather enough support from NAACP chapters and Black > > media to demand a revision. She asks that letters > > be sent to the: > > I will definitely send a letter or simply send this E-mail > to > > > Language Research Service > > Merriam-Webster Inc. > > Box 281 > > Springfield, MA 01102 or > > call (413) 734-3134 > > A similar action is underway in Germany by hundreds of > societies comprising the now called AFRO-GERMANS. Like > their American counterparts, the Afro-Germans never > bothered about the plight of the black man in Germany until > it became apparent that they are treated as 'misfits' in > the society more than the black man himself. The black man > knows that he has just come here for a specific purpose and > that this is not his country. The Afro-Germans who are born > and bred here are treated just like any of us. They 'feel' > the pinch more than we really do. Their parents (the > German spouses of an Africans) are often looked at with > contempt by their German brothers and sisters for 'messing' > themselves up with Africans to the extent of getting 'half- > caste' children. > > The word 'Neger' (in German) is still in school textbooks. > I gave an example on Leonenet recently regarding the > school reader of my daughter. The Afro-German societies > have written letters of protest to publishers of school > books all over Germany to withdraw books in circulation > which contain the abusive word and to ensure that new books > are free from it. There is some amount of success because > German teachers are supporting this action. > > I was terrified with anger yesterday when I was reading a > recent publication of my statistics professors Kraemer and > Trenkler here at Dortmund. These guys have a best seller > which is already in its ninth reprint eventhough it was > first published in February 1996. I am now working with > them for a Book Two. But yesterday, I decided to take a > look at the first and my eyes almost burst out when I saw > this in German: > > The **s were treated more humanly by the > Europeans than by the Arabs. In Arab countries > African ** slaves were castrated > and as a result there is hardly any offsprings > of ** slaves in those countries. > > The two will not be in Dortmund for a while. You would be > right if you guessed that I will confront both of them > about this. I will make copies of that page and distribute > to all Afro-German societies in Germany and ask that > they write to my profs. > > > Stephen Perrault > > Senior Editor > > Merriam-Webster, Incorporated > > > > We hope you will forgive us for making this response less individual > > and more formulaic than our usual correspondence. The volume of mail > > generated by the brief piece in "Emerge" has forced us to take a > > general approach. > > This 'formulaic' response is deliberate. I am very certain > that it will not sufficiently answer all the questions that > people ask. > > > The first point we want to make is that the entry for "**" in > > Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, contains a > > very important part, a usage paragraph, that the magazine did not > > show you: > > > > usage "**" in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such > > writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, > > but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial > > slur in English. Its use by and among Blacks is not always intended > > or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word > > expressive of racial hatred and bigotry. > > This paragraph is intended to explain the usuage of the > word as defined in 1. and 2. Both definitions are flawed. > If the word MUST, at all cost, be kept in a dictionary, as > explained below, then definitions 1. and 2. MUST be altered > as follows: > > 1. a racially motivated offensive/abusive term used on a > black person by a white person in order to provoke the > former about the enslaving of his/her ancestors by the > ancestors of the latter. > > 2. a racially motivated offensive/abusive term used on any > dark-skinned person by a white person in order to > provoke the former about the enslaving of his/her > ancestors by the ancestors of the latter. > > When dictionaries define the word this way, they will help > a little white boy in several ways: he will not call his > good black friends so; he will tell his parents not to use > the word because it is abusive. > > I am saying this because I have found out in Germany that > most of the children do not know that 'Neger' is abusive. > Even a lot of grown-ups don't really know that. They feel > that blacks are 'Neger' and that is all. Consequently, the > dictionary definitions given merely add to the ignorance. > The usuage paragraph doesn't help much since a person > looking for the meaning of the word in a hurry wouldn't > bother to read that paragraph. > > > We believe that this constitutes a strong, clear > > statement about the actual status of this word in usage > > today. > > You are right but your definitions are flawed! > > > Please bear in mind as you consider these definitions of "**" > > that we are defining the meanings of a word, not describing groups of > > people. > > You don't mean what you are saying. You know very well that > you can't separate the two in this case. > > > The difference is of crucial importance. We are not > > saying that if one is a member of a dark-skinned race > > one should consider oneself a **. > > You can't run out of this. You are 'not saying' but that's > what you want people to understand. > > > Such an attitude is totally abhorrent to us! > > Is it? Then re-define your definitions since they have even > caused you to prepare a formulaic response. > > > We are saying that some people (sick or misguided > > people, in all likelihood) currently use the word > > "**" and others > > No, you have not said this. It is not sufficient to > explain to those who write to you. You'd better make > your definition adequate in your dictionary and you will > see that those letters will stop coming. > > > (like Joseph > > Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, mentioned in the usage > > paragraph above, whose writings reflect many of the attitudes of > > their time) have used it in the past and when the word is used by > > such people it generally refers to either a black person or a member > > of some other dark-skinned people. > > Well, there you go! You didn't mean to describe groups of > people. Now, you are talking about 'referring' to them. > The sooner you fish out the very evident discrepancy here > the better it will be for you and for all of us. > > > We have often been told by correspondents that at some time "**" > > meant an ignorant or shiftless person of any race. > > You don't need any documented evidence of this. You know > that it is NOT true. Perhaps if you include a short > paragraph in your dictionary about the history of the word, > just as you have done for its usage, you will see 'clearly' > that '**' is deliberately a misuse of 'Negro' by the > inhuman slave masters. Come on! Read a little bit of > history. > > > We have no > > evidence in our files of citations (a citation being simply an > > example of an English word in context) that "**" is used with > > such a meaning. If you have actual evidence of this, especially in > > print, we would be very glad to have you pass it along. Please > > remember that a dictionary cannot assign meanings to words; it can > > only record the meanings that people actually use. > > This confirms that your definitions are flawed. The people > use ** for a purpose and this use is not reflected in > your definitions. > > > We do not believe that we would be doing anything positive about > > racism by removing the entries for "**" and other offensive words > > from the dictionary. > > I don't think that the word should be removed from the > dictionary. People who have written to you have probably > expressed disgust at your inability to 'record' the correct > use of the word by people. > > > We cannot make offensive words pass out of > > existence by leaving them out of the dictionary; we can merely damage > > the integrity of the dictionary. > > See comment above. > > > People do not learn these words from > > the dictionary, nor do they refrain from using the words until they > > have checked a dictionary to see whether the words are entered. The > > dictionary really has little to do with the use of these words except > > to record it and to tell the truth about its offensiveness. > > Look, the dictionary is written by a set of people. In this > case, you would do me and all previous writers a favour if > could convince us that your decision to falsely 'record' the > use of the word is not racially motivated. > > > I hope I have persuaded you that we are behaving responsibly as > > dictionary makers in our handling of words like "**," and I thank > > you for giving me the opportunity to explain. > > You have not behaved responsibly as dictionary makers. We > know that in preparing the final pages of the dictionary, > you asked other people and refered to previous works. What > you have done in this case is simply produce a copy of the > definitions of a dead white racist editor. > > Mallam O. > > > ============================================== > Osman A. Sankoh (A TOMLINSONIAN!) > (Environmental and Ecological Statistics) > Department of Statistics, University of Dortmund > Postfach 500 500, D-44221 Dortmund > Germany > Tel.: +49 231 755 4391, Fax : +49 231 755 5303 > (HOME: Tel/Fax: +49 231 728 2695) > e-mail: sankoh@omega.statistik.uni-dortmund.de > ================================================= > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:21:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <libSDtMail.9709261521.7989.sarian@groucho> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: h0AAMN/vKZN2aJsWO4nKog== Ya Soffie, You're right there were many other people who didn't share the Mam Cham sentiments but you also had some rotten ones that were constantly inconsiderate and disrespectful. I think sometimes people forget that both Wollof moslems & christians are related in one way or the other. Because we also have moslem relatives. Anyway its past and gone but sometimes it brings back old wounds when moslems ostracized christians and thats why I just touched on this subject to prove that there is indeed some religious intolerance in our beloved country. And I'm glad that this is a mature group in that they are considerate to other peoples feelings and religious preferences. And yes you're right my grandmother never tolerated nonsense which is why she had very little to do with Mam Cham but his predecessor (Serigne Secka) was very nice and considerate. You shouldn't have been too young not to remember him, am I correct? BTW, where in Half Die did your family lived? kind regards & take great care. sarian > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:34:38 -0400 > From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> > To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > Subject: RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse > MIME-Version: 1.0 > X-To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > X-Priority: 3 > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > > > > > SArian, > > > I don't remember Mam Cham but my sisters do. Going home > yesterday, I kept thinking that Mam Cham could not have been one of the > settlers of Half Die since the make-up of that quarter was/is one where > Wollof Gourmets and Wollof Serigns were blood relatives and the kinds of > sentiments Mam Cham had against your family seemed out of character for > a typical HALF-DIE IAN. I am sorry that that kind of abuse took place. > Of course, your grandmother was not one to take rubbish from > anyone as I remember and I hope she did not. > > It has to be said though that Gambia enjoys a peaceful > co-existence of religions inspite of the Mam Chams and the recent > Ahmaddiya debacle. > > Ya Soffie > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:31:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <libSDtMail.9709261531.3778.sarian@groucho> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: vMkIQVpWyF4xST5xEm5Cgg== Sorry Gambia-l this message was meant to go to Ya Soffie's private email. My apologies. sarian > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:21:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp> > To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > Subject: RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-MD5: h0AAMN/vKZN2aJsWO4nKog== > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > > Ya Soffie, > > You're right there were many other people who didn't share the Mam Cham > sentiments but you also had some rotten ones that were constantly inconsiderate > and disrespectful. I think sometimes people forget that both Wollof moslems & > christians are related in one way or the other. Because we also have moslem > relatives. Anyway its past and gone but sometimes it brings back old wounds > when moslems ostracized christians and thats why I just touched on this subject > to prove that there is indeed some religious intolerance in our beloved country. > And I'm glad that this is a mature group in that they are considerate to other > peoples feelings and religious preferences. > > And yes you're right my grandmother never tolerated nonsense which is why she > had very little to do with Mam Cham but his predecessor (Serigne Secka) was very > nice and considerate. You shouldn't have been too young not to remember him, am > I correct? BTW, where in Half Die did your family lived? > > kind regards & take great care. > > sarian > > > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:34:38 -0400 > > From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> > > To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" > <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > > Subject: RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > X-To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > > X-Priority: 3 > > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > > > > > > > > > SArian, > > > > > I don't remember Mam Cham but my sisters do. Going home > > yesterday, I kept thinking that Mam Cham could not have been one of the > > settlers of Half Die since the make-up of that quarter was/is one where > > Wollof Gourmets and Wollof Serigns were blood relatives and the kinds of > > sentiments Mam Cham had against your family seemed out of character for > > a typical HALF-DIE IAN. I am sorry that that kind of abuse took place. > > Of course, your grandmother was not one to take rubbish from > > anyone as I remember and I hope she did not. > > > > It has to be said though that Gambia enjoys a peaceful > > co-existence of religions inspite of the Mam Chams and the recent > > Ahmaddiya debacle. > > > > Ya Soffie > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:18:37 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: humor for the weekend (fwd) Message-ID: <9709262318.AA57310@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Relax and enjoy! Regards, Moe S. Jallow =================================================================== > >Subject: Actual Conversation > > > > > > Subject: Proper Client Handling Technique > > > > Actual dialog of a former Wordperfect Customer Support employee: > > > > "Ridge Hall, computer assistant; may I help you?" > > > > "Yes, well, I'm having trouble with WordPerfect." > > > > "What sort of trouble?" > > > > "Well, I was just typing along, and all of a sudden the words went > > away." > > > > "Went away?" > > > > "They disappeared." > > > > "Hmm. So what does your screen look like now?" > > > > "Nothing." > > > > "Nothing?" > > > > "It's blank; it won't accept anything when I type." > > > > "Are you still in WordPerfect, or did you get out?" > > > > "How do I tell?" > > > > "Can you see the C:\ prompt on the screen?" > > > > "What's a sea-prompt?" > > > > "Never mind. Can you move the cursor around on the screen?" > > > > "There isn't any cursor: I told you, it won't accept anything I type." > > > > "Does your monitor have a power indicator?" > > > > "What's a monitor?" > > > > "It's the thing with the screen on it that looks like a TV. Does it > > have a little light that tells you when it's on?" > > > > "I don't know." > > > > "Well, then look on the back of the monitor and find where the power > > cord goes into it. Can you see that?" > > > > ......"Yes, I think so." > > > > "Great! Follow the cord to the plug, and tell me if it's plugged into > > the wall." > > > > ......"Yes, it is." > > > > "When you were behind the monitor, did you notice that there were two > > cables plugged into the back of it, not just one?" > > > > "No." > > > > "Well, there are. I need you to look back there again and find the > > other cable." > > > > ......"Okay, here it is." > > > > "Follow it for me, and tell me if it's plugged securely into the back > > of your computer." > > > > "I can't reach." > > > > "Uh huh. Well, can you see if it is?" > > > > "No." > > > > "Even if you maybe put your knee on something and lean way over?" > > > > "Oh, it's not because I don't have the right angle-it's because it's > > dark." > > > > "Dark? > > > > "Yes-the office light is off, and the only light I have is coming in > > from the window." > > > > "Well, turn on the office light then." > > > > "I can't." > > > > "No? Why not?" > > > > "Because there's a power outage." > > > > "A power... A power outage? Aha! Okay, we've got it licked now. Do you > > still have the boxes and manuals and packing stuff your computer came > > in?" > > > > "Well, yes, I keep them in the closet." > > > > "Good! Go get them, and unplug your system and pack it up just like it > > was when you got it. Then take it back to the store you bought it > > from." > > > > "Really? Is it that bad?" > > > > "Yes, I'm afraid it is." > > > > "Well, all right then, I suppose. What do I tell them?" > > > > "Tell them you're too stupid to own a computer. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:57:54 -0500 From: Francis Njie <c3p0@xsite.net> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970926205754.0074ab30@xsite.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Soffie wrote: >> I take you still feel strongly and are ready to do something. With enough support, I certainly would be ready to act on this matter... - Francis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:38:18 +0100 From: "<PMJ@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> To: "gambia-l" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <B0000008019@south.commit.gm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent by "Pa Musa Jallow" <pmj@commit.gm> via Commit Hi Folks.. First in response to where I (Pa Musa) and other shadow list members were over the past weeks...well, we are mostly here in The Gambia..trying to make ends meets..and trying to more than survive...Torstein and Joern have also been remarkably quiet..so it must be a localised thing.. I am glad to note that there has been very healthy and heated debate on the Ahmaddiya impasse..the religious thing..most of us disapproving..I will add that I have watched the the past 30 months the over-politicization of Religion/Islam..i say over..because local politics in the absence of 1) the will and 2) the ability to debate over real and relevant issues of national development or even probably the absence of any real differences in Agenda in the political class have reduced the political debate to personalities and personal differences..tribe, religion, education, and social standing, caste etc... I do not think the State should condone any body, religion or institution propagating hate and violence or any act that the State (through the constitution) considers Criminal or even Treasonous...this is in response to those who think as a Muslim, the Imam reserves the right to preach against un-Islamic practices or practices deemed ''Haram''...what if these same Imams start preaching against the psuedo-western/judeo-christian make-up of the State and preach Jihad to overthrow the State and establish an Islamic state governed by Sharia..will the Imam's right to preach be protected by freedom of expression and by our prevailing laws..the answer is obvious.. the State machinery protects the State's integrity and is governed by its constitution..which currently does not allow any preacher..Imam or otherwise to preach and propagate hate and violence against any group.. On the other hand, I will contend that the traditional religions all over the world..especially Christianity..Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism and Methodism as well as Sunni and e Islam have lately been besieged with modern religious sects..Born Agains, Evangelicals, Ahmaddiya, Bahai..etc.. and of course these sects gain at the expense of the traditionalists and it is this reaction that has manifested itself in the Ahmaddiya saga and I fear this will continue...there is also a correlative rise in Fundamentalism in all religions, so The Gambia is not an isolated case and in fact surprisingly The Gambia is one of the last to catch on and the ahmadiya is not the first and probably not the gravest despite its huge publicity... in early 1994 the Gambissara mosque dispute..purported over a section of the Dukureh clan that wanted to pray with their hands folded on their chests and the others..the more traditional who pray with their hand on their sides..as more traditionally done in The Gambia..this dispute apparently over new-fangled style led to the expulsion or walk-out of the hands-on the chest group..this group then tried to built their own mosque on their own pproperty which the others not only refused but if I recall correctly, razed the works to the ground; this impasse in the village got govt. involved..legally the 'dissident' group was backed by the court but after the 1994 coup..the govt sought to have the dispute buried..this culminated in the incarceration of some of the dugurahs at janjnagbureh (Maccathy Island) for long periods; now released in the 2nd republic, the dissidents are still seking legal recourse from the courts..it is still a smoking gun In 1997 Ramadan prayers,( around february) which occurred on a Sunday..the Kairaba Avenue mosque was drowned out by gospel singing and drumming from an adjecent house-cum church for a new Nigerian christian group...despite appeals to lower their music for the 5-minutes prayer of the muslim by an eminent gambian catholic who was video-taping the muslim prayers, the volume of the praying/singing and drumming was increased..at the end of the prayers, some of the youths there started stonig the house/church forcing all the inhabitants to flee..later the papers reported that the church leaders had been arrested and that the residence had been illegally converted into a church..this issue then just died away and lately it is the Ahmadiyya so it is fair to say that there has lately been rising social tension especially with regard to religion and i will close by urging retraint, understanding and tolerance especially from the muslims who constitute the majority... i will stop for now....and i hope this will make up for my silence over the past weeks and also keep the ahmaddiya impasse in perspective..it got alot more publicity but the Dukureh case was more grave, nonetheless these situations all require our attention. pmj ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:59:23 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: New Member Message-ID: <19970927180047.AAA37328@LOCALNAME> Gambia-l, Amadou Kabir Njie has been added to the list. Welcome to the Gambia-l Kabir, please send a brief introduction to: gambia-l@u.washington.edu regards Momodou Camara *************************************************** http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:30:33 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <01BCCB95.DD4FEE60@dddw.qatar.net.qa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCB95.DD718020" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCB95.DD718020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PM., I have been very angry with your this so-called "localised silence",but = somehow you have been able to miraculously condense almost everything we = have been debating since.So,thank you for this great run down! That said,your piece makes a depressing reading.If religious fanaticism = is added to our twin evils of ignorance and abject poverty,I cannot but = foresee the kind of senseless chaos that could destroy beyond repair the = very fabric of our society.So,I hope our leadership would from now on = show a greater degree of maturity and sophistication without which all = their efforts to develop the country would result in naught! And keep up the good work down there on the ground! Regards Bassss! -----Original Message----- From: <PMJ@COMMIT.GM> [SMTP:gambia-l@commit.gm] Sent: 25 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 04:38 a To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Sent by "Pa Musa Jallow" <pmj@commit.gm> via Commit Hi Folks.. First in response to where I (Pa Musa) and other shadow list members = were over the past weeks...well, we are mostly here in The Gambia..trying to make ends meets..and trying to more than survive...Torstein and Joern = have also been remarkably quiet..so it must be a localised thing.. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:28:05 -0400 From: Andy Lyons <alyons@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Fwd: Looking for Gambian stamps Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970927232805.258f7cb8@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Can anyone help this person find Gambian stamps? If so, please contact her directly. Thanks. Andy >Return-Path: <MacGoofy@AOL.COM> >Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:55:08 -0400 (EDT) >From: MacGoofy@aol.com >Subject: gambia stamps > >I would like to buy gambia stamps How do I do that? do you have resourse or >not? >I am mainly looking for disney to collect for my daughter project. She is 9 >years old. >thank you >mary campisi >MacGoofy@AOL.COM =============================================================== Andy Lyons The Gambia Resource Page alyons@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu http://grove.ufl.edu/~alyons =============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:07:41 -0000 From: "<TGR@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> To: "gambia-l" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>, "Camara, Momodou" <momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk> Subject: Re: Foroyaa's email Message-ID: <B0000008051@south.commit.gm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent by "Torstein Grotnes" <tgr@commit.gm> via Commit To Camara and Gambia-L. Foroyaa e-mail account is active, but they have a defective modem we are trying to help them with. If you get bounced mail, there is two possible answers. 1. wrong address 2.mailsize over 64Kbyte Regards, Tosh Commit > Hei Torstein, > Someone called me from Germany and said that his emails to foroyaa > are sent back. > Do they still have email? > I have just sent an email to their address to check. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:17:09 +0100 From: "<PMJ@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse (2) Message-ID: <B0000008056@south.commit.gm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent by "Pa Musa Jallow" <pmj@commit.gm> via Commit Mr. Bass, Thanks for your comments..i just want to add that in all fairness, The Gambia has and still maintains an impressive record on religious and social tolerance...despite a 90/95% Muslim majority, compared with say Senegal with 80/85%, The Gambia still has not ever banned any religious sect..Senegal probably because of the strong Muslim orders..Tarihas and movements..the Tijaniyya, Quaddriya and Mouriddulahi, as well as a very politically strong and socially-prominent Catholic church, the so-called new religious sects are not allowed nor the new Arab-sponsored fundamentalist NGO/groups..on the other hand in The Gambia all sects,denominations are allowed including the Moonists..I had one in class..so in terms of religoius tolerance, we have a record to be proud of... and even this Ahmaddiya case, a lot of us Muslim and Christian Gambians were troubled by the way both the Ahmaddis and the State handled it..it was slightly encouraging to hear after all the noise that the Head of State had called the Sec. of State for the Interior responsible for Religious Affairs to caution the State House Imam to stop attacking the Ahmaddis in his sermon...had this Statement been known in advance, perhaps the brouhaha could have been prevented..the local Ahmaddis too very early in the debacle took to the airwaves and the issue became a tit for tat leading into their exile..some unguarded remarks by Interior Sec. of State, made in argument like for example that 90% of Gambians dislike the Ahmaddis did not help..in short the whole debacle could have been averted with some restraint and levelheadedness...we must also acknowledge that the present regime after enduring 3 years of sanctions did not appreciate the sudden closing of schools and clinics by the Ahmaddis as they left the country with very strong and caustic remarks..as they will return when sanity is restored at the highest level of Govt...etc...i will admit that I personally found the State House Imam sermons distasteful and out of line with our traditional Islam, I also found myself incensed by the high horse moralizing and perceived arrogance of the local Ahmaddi leadership and also their claims of spiritual superiority..for example that it is said in the Holy Quran that Islam will have 73 sects but only one will be the TRUE one and this ONE will be revealed when all the others combine to PERSECUTE them..the AHMADDIS..that is quite rich coming from PEOPLE forced out their OWN COUNTRIES and WELCOMED and ALLOWED to THRIVE in OUR MIDST...any form of superiority complex is bound to be ill-received. leaders must lead and sometimes that requires taking stands that may be unpopular in the heat of the moment..such as restraint and calm when the name-calling begins..this came in the impasse, though belated...my silence on the issue was because I did not approve the anti-ahmaddi sermons nor did I appreciate the Ahmaddi reaction/retaliation nor the Govt.'s earlier bungling of the issue...it was all POOR LEADERSHIP by the LEADERS..I am glad that COMMNSENSE prevailed finally..and grudgingly, i admit that the Head of State was probably the only one that scored browny points, he said in a press meeting that the Mosque at the State House was for no other purpose except for him to have a place to pray close by..personally..i still contend that it would have been better if no such building was made..but that is a personal opinion another salient point is the new Arab sponsored Islamic missionaries and their proselytizing are adding to the problem..these so-called (locally) fundamentals are also counter-preaching and converting us traditional muslims to a purer form of mostly SUNNI ISLAM from SAUDI ARABIA, SUDAN, LIBYA and KUWAIT...I am not sure where we should start BANNING and WHERE that will STOP, so I do not have a POSITION yet but I trust the GOOD sense of OUR people i will stop here for now but Bass I hope I have reassured you that Home is still a place to be proud of in terms of religious harmony... pmj p.s. by the way i will add that in 91/92 or 93, after her downfall, ex-premier Margaret Thatcher in a series of lectures in the U.S. blamed the West's problems on the lack of morals and other cultures different from the Judeo-Christian foundations, in other words, blame the muslims, the Pakis, the Chings, Swamis, Indians, the Negroes etc for the malaise in the West..considering how much better of the British and American economies are doing now, I do not hear her or anyone belaboring these points anymore...she was no better that our current State House Imam, anyway, probably with more potential to cause dis-harmony and harm. all comments welcome ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:06:04 -0000 From: "<TGR@COMMIT.GM>" <gambia-l@commit.gm> To: "gambia-l" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: The different topics lately on Gambia-L Message-ID: <B0000008054@south.commit.gm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent by "Torstein Grotnes" <tgr@commit.gm> via Commit Just some short comments from me now I'm afraid because of heavy workload and small time to closely follow the discussions. 1) Religious intolerance: Even if I am not a religious person, I do not joke about peoples belief. On the other hand I do joke about my own "disbelief". Some religious people tend to lack two things I believe is of great importance; Self-irony and humor. Without this, things sometimes get very serious and frightening. In my country there is a sharp line between the "state religion" and the daily political life. I view that as important so that I easier can use my "personal soul" to decide any belief as an adult. There is several basic questions that I have problems answering when I think about the specific religions. I'll give you one: If all religions claim to be the "correct way" then you must conclude that the other ones is more or less "wrong"!? So which one is the right then? Disclaimer: This is my personal thoughts on religion and should not be seen on as a disrespect of any type of religion or belief. 2) Sleeping with others than your partner: I think it is cowardly to sleep with others when you are in a relationship, and then lying or hiding it for your partner. If you love a person, you also love every part of his/hers body and out of respect for this person, you should tell him/her if you crave for outside sex. Disclaimer: This is my personal thoughts on relationships and should not be seen on as a disrespect of any type of relationship or family construction. 3)Copyrights: The Internet is for me a revolution in progress. The unique thing about it is that no power or group of people are capable of controlling it or regulate it as they desire. This means that browsing the Internet gives anybody for the first time in history a first-hand and uncensored access to what humans are/does/think/believe in/wants/ etc..... It is a incredible large source of "good" and "bad" information that everybody should be able to tap from. It is the first true ORACLE that actually gives you some answers to your questions. The answers might be plain wrong or biased but coming from sources that are independent from each other gives you a really good basis on avoiding wrong conclusions. My belief is that Copyrights must play second role when it comes to this "revolution". Most people survive very well even if some people copy their "intellectual property". The economic losses I believe is insignificant compared to the value is has for the Internet individual. Disclaimer: This is my personal thoughts on copyrights and should (hopefully) not be seen on as a disrespect of any type of copyright law. Regards, Torstein Commit ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:33:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> To: Gambia <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Monogamy -Reply (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709272159.A22518-0100000@mach1.wlu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Latir Downes-Thomas wrote: > > Shouldn't monogamous relationships bring about sufficient enjoyment? It > should but unfortunately it doesn't always. Why? First of all, I think that when people enter a relationship they should begin with honesty ie go into the relationship because YOU want to and not because of guilt over something, what others have to say hence pressure etc. That way when things are not so smooth, you can remember why you entered the relationship in the first place. And remembering the reasons why it is, may help maintain the relationship. Another thing that we've heard time and again is communication. We hear it all the time yet it's hard to practise. Talk. whether it's about good or bad things. telling the person about the good things they've done and thanking them for it/them will make the person feel good and appreciated. Telling them about the bad will get it off your chest and help in preventing the same thing from happening in the future. Keeping things to yourself lets them eat at you and then you'll blow up at insignificant things when it's totally uncalled for. And I guess the last thing I can think of is compromise. Don't try and change people into what you want them to be. Accept them for who they are. Each partner should alter certain behaviours that piss off their partners inorder to accomodate them. These are the only things I can think off that make some monogamous relationships unsuccessful. Any comments?? > Going back to the issue of boredom, in societies where polygamy (that is > in marriages) are accepted, the roots in the promiscuity of husbands are > the same but I believe there are many other more complex factors that > actually lead to these husbands marrying again. These can range from > the traditional to the contemporary but I don't think boredom factors > much. > > Latir Gheran > Actually, in societies where polygamy is acceted, I think men find it easier to not try and make a relationship work. Instead the attitude is "I don't have to put up with this, there are other women out there who will appreciate me more than you do". Of course they forget their contributions to the present problem(s) the relationship is facing. Ancha. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:56:14 -0400 (EDT) From: MJagana@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) Message-ID: <970927225612_337054449@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-09-26 21:39:27 EDT, you write: << With enough support, I certainly would be ready to act on this matter... >> Dear Francis, I throw my hat into the ring. Also the former US ambassador to The Gambia is a friend of mine in Washington D.C. and this was something we discussed a while ago.So in case we need any kind of advice with who to contact in the state dept. he will be a helpful source. momodou J ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:10:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Hous@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse (2) Message-ID: <970927231007_-793784305@emout18.mail.aol.com> i would like to come in here to give some advice.lets be very careful about our comments on religious issues because this is a very delicate issue.religious issues should handled by people who have a good knowledge of quoran and hadith.i am not sure if any one of us has a sound background in quoran and hadith .i would recommend mild rather than in depth discusions on this issue.we don't want to see our beloved country turned into another algeria.look at all those senseless killings in algeria.what are they trying to acomplish? is this what we learn in our scriptures?islam is not about going around harassing and disturbing others.but about living in harmony with others.it is about caring for others,it is about sharing with the less fortunate,it is about self discipline and the list goes on and on .actions are but intention and everyone shall have but that which he intended. in other words Allah rewards people not by the size and magnitude of their deeds but their intentions.may Allah Almighty give us a thorough guidiance.may He keep our beloved country ever united. salam a lai koum . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:20:38 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse (2) Message-ID: <01BCCBF3.6170B8C0@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCBF3.61924A80" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCBF3.61924A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sir/Madame, In the future,please try to write your name at the end of your = comments, so we would know who we are talking to. The rule you are trying to apply here is untenable! If we can't discuss = Gambia's Islam unless we are Islamic theologians,can that also mean that = we couldn't discuss Gambia's polygamy unless we are Sociologists? And = what about agriculture........? Think about it! Regards Basssss! -----Original Message----- From: Hous@aol.com [SMTP:Hous@aol.com] Sent: 26 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 06:10 O To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: Re: On Religion /Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse (2) because this is a very delicate issue.religious issues should handled by people who have a good = knowledge of quoran and hadith.i am not sure if any one of us has a sound background = in quoran and hadith .i would recommend mild rather than in depth = discusions on this issue. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:45:50 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: The different topics lately on Gambia-L Message-ID: <01BCCBF3.6406F400@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCBF3.6406F400" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCBF3.6406F400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Both you Torstein and Pa Musa are simply fantastic when you are not = suffering from your "localised silence" down there.Its been really = refreshing reading both of you.But please try to do something about your = this localised silence virus,it is killing us here,esp.during heated = debates on contentious issues.Your inputs always have flavours that ours = can't have. So,take care and keep up the good work down there! Regards Bassss! -----Original Message----- From: <TGR@COMMIT.GM> [SMTP:gambia-l@commit.gm] Sent: 26 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 02:06 O To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: The different topics lately on Gambia-L Sent by "Torstein Grotnes" <tgr@commit.gm> via Commit Self-irony and humor. If all religions claim to be the "correct way" then you must conclude = that the other ones=20 is more or less "wrong"!? So which one is the right then?=20 I think it is cowardly to sleep with others when you are in a = relationship, and then lying or hiding it for your partner. 3)Copyrights: =20 My belief is that Copyrights must play second role when it comes to this = "revolution".=20 Most people survive very well even if some people copy their = "intellectual property". The economic losses I believe is insignificant compared to the value is has for the Internet individual. Regards, Torstein Commit ------------------------------ End of GAMBIA-L Digest 87 ***********************
Momodou	Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 15:26:39 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:22:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> To: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> Cc: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970923231221.14983A-100000@acc5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: I have a hypothetical scenario I want to contribute to the issue of copyrighting. It is October, and the Observer has been successfully launched at www.gambianet.org. Now while some members of gambia-l are subscribers to it, many are not. One of those who is a regular subscriber decides to download on a regular basis articles from the Observer and post them on gambia-l. What would the folks at GambiaNet think? How different is this from what is the current acceptable (except for one dissenting voice) format? I am all for the dissemination of information and will personally go to all ends to obtain it. As we defend our right to share information, I think we should also consider the same scenario when it is closer to home. What do you think? LatJor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:46:13 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <3428B735.16EFAD2@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LatJor Ndow wrote: > I have a hypothetical scenario I want to contribute to the > issue of copyrighting. > It is October, and the Observer has been successfully launched > at www.gambianet.org. Now while some members of gambia-l are > subscribers to it, many are not. One of those who is a regular > subscriber decides to download on a regular basis articles > from the Observer and post them on gambia-l. > What would the folks at GambiaNet think? How different is this > from what is the current acceptable (except for one dissenting > voice) format? > I am all for the dissemination of information and will > personally go to all ends to obtain it. As we defend our right > to share information, I think we should also consider the > same scenario when it is closer to home. > What do you think? While I am a member of the Board of Directors of GambiaNet what I say here is a personal remark and not on behalf of GambiaNet. This is an interesting scenario and one that I am quite sure will take place. It is to be expected that there will be some members of GambiaNet, who are also members of Gambia-L and will from time to time forward articles or excerpts of articles from the Observer Online for discussion purposes. Given the fact that the Observer Online was born out of Gambia-L and all the administrators of the service are members of Gambia-L, I am also quite sure that such activity will be closely monitored. The agreement that potential GambiaNet members will have to adhere to will include provisions making it clear that the material on the Observer Online service is a copyright of The Observer Company and the rest of the legal garb prohibiting distribution without permission. If, as LatJor mentions, there is a member who regularly posts articles I am sure the administrators of GambiaNet will first warn the member against continuing such activity as it goes contrary to the agreement he or she agreed to and is supposed to adhere to. If the members persists this activity, I would not be surprised if that member is removed from GambiaNet and thus will no longer gain access to the Observer Online. Given how I feel about the issue of re-distributing news wire stories this may seem hypocritical but I'm sure the difference between this scenario and that of what actually takes place here on Gambia-L can be appreciated. In addition to what I just mentioned above, the Observer Online would lose a considerable amount with such an activity while the loss to Reuters, Xinhua, PANA, etc. is negligible. Regardless of this difference however, I can say with some certainty that you will not find any messages from GambiaNet administrators to the Gambia-L list warning members not to post copyrighted material on Gambia-L. That prerogative really belongs to the administrators of Gambia-L and no one else. I can understand having a member of Gambia-L bringing up the issue re-distribution of copyright material and warning members against such activity. What I don't understand is why this has to be done repeatedly as though the member is a self appointed regulator. This is why I said earlier that if that member has a serious problem with all this he should consider either contacting the proprietors of the material he is so worried about, leaving and not being a part of it all or just let the matter go. Peace. Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:22:59 +0000 From: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <3427A693.EC5@ci.rech.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gunjur@aol.com wrote: > > Once a news release hits the papers, whether from Reuters or any other source, that paper > can be picked up and sent to anyone anywhere in the world. One newspaper sent to one person is not, I would submit, the same as sending the original news release to a whole list. > what is Barry's interest in this matter? This 'moron' has no specific interest (presumably you mean financial?) in this matter. I have worked in the information industry for a long time and I know the attitude of copyright owners to protecting what they see as their rights, viz. my reference to the US Congress. Interesting that no-one has reacted to the programming piracy side of the question, everybody happy to have their efforts stolen??? Nobody here ever copied a diskette with a program on it? Nobody here ever laplinked a program from one machine to the other?? All the same issue. Bye, the moron. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:01:20 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: Gambia-L <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <3428D6DF.1CF2311A@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just read an article in the September 15 issue of the Daily Observer titled "Ahmadiyya-Gov't Impasse Resolved". The Observer reports that "the misunderstanding between the Gambian authorities and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat is now reslovled, following the decision by the Government to declare its commitment to secularism and absolute justice." The non-Gambian Ahmadis abrubtly left The Gambia on September 3 following an order from their Imam after a culmination of events that began in June when State House Imam Fatty made remarks against the sect and the Ahmadiyya programmes were pulled from Radio Gambia and Gambia TV. According to the Observer, "the new Amir of the Ahmadiyya Jamaat in The Gambia, Baba Trawally, said he had received a release from the Ahmadiyya leader, Khalifatul Masih IV, in London". In that release, the Khalifatul Masih, Harzat Mirza Tahir Ahmed says: "I am glad to infrom the people of the Gambia that the most recent vital decisions taken by the Right Honourable President Jammeh of the Gambia regarding the nature of the Gambian government and her unconditional commitment to secularism and absolute justice are most cordially welcomed by me." In the release he goes on to say that the decisions are " wise and bold decisions which have dispelled all fears regarding The Gambia being turned into an intolerable theocracy. The entire world would be happy to listen to the President's statements as widely published by the media. The world of Ahmadiyya is particular pleased and indebted to the Right Honerable President for the said decisions." Among those non-Gambian Ahmadis who left were two doctors but according to the Khalifatul Masih, he ordered them to return immediately to open the hospitals that were also closed. The initial delay was due to unavailbale airline seats back to the Gambia but now he explained, " according to immigration laws of the country, we have been served notice by the Immigration that they cannot visit The Gambia again without seeking new permissions. The papers they have demanded will soon be submitted and now it entirely depends on them how fast they can process papers and grant new permits." In the same article the Obsever also reported that in a release, Momodou Bojang, Secretary of State for Interior and Religious affairs, stated that " the government upholds religious rights and freedoms as enshrined in the constitution and as such both Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis are entitled to their respective religious belief and worship as long as the security of the country is not threatened." According to the Observer, Bojang also assured the country that the governement has no intention of confiscating the properties of the Ahmadiyya Jamaat "particularly now that the Jamaat is headed by indigenous Gambian citizens." In an article in the September 15 issue of The Point the correspondent Mbye B. Saine reported that Secretary of State Bojang made assurances in a press conference on September 9 that the departure of the sect will cause no vacuum. Saine reports that "Mr. Bojang explanied that the government, will manage their facilities so that it continues to render better services to the people and this will also apply to their schools which have enjoyed government subventions for a long time. He added that government pays the saleries of some teachers in these schools and the Ahmadis only administer them." It is also mentioned in the article that Bojang said he considers the Ahmadis to be muslims and in his response to their letters on the issue of verbal attacks made against them, he ordered all state media houses to cease the broadcasting of sectarian attacks. In the press conference, according to The Point, Bojang had some words for BBC stringer Ebrima Sallah on a report he filed on the affair, a report that he believed was all lies. He told Sallah, "You didn't pich out of my press release because you intended to cause misinformation." "You are talking to a Secretary of State, somebody who can lock you up antytime...even today, before you leave here. So don't thjreaten your situation. You don't have to be rude. You are too young to be destroyed." In another article in the same issue of The Point, Emuran Saidy reported that Mr. Karamo Bojang, the acting Principal of Nusrat, an Ahmadiyya school, told his students that the school will continue to operate. According to Saidy, he also said that while the principals of Tahir and Nasir Senior Secondary Schools had all left, "he was assigned by the new Amir Baba Trawally to go and ask the teachers (staffs) to go on with their job and enroll new students." Based on what I have read in other issues of the Observer, I have gathered that these events have caused some to openly question the virtues of having a Secretary of State for Religious Affairs, and accordingly, some have also defended the state position in their letters to the editor. Our disscusions on this issue here in Gambia-L seem to mirror those back home. Peace Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:14:39 -0400 (EDT) From: MJawara@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <970924051438_1686935245@emout02.mail.aol.com> I've read interesting and intellectually stimulating postings, but Lord knows I've also read disgusting and nauseating comments on the List ----- But that's the idea of freedom of expression.List members ( including List officials ) have hurled insults at each other and as you'd imagine, tempers have flared - up before.I recall when there was a lengthy debate on whether Tombong [ Saidy ] then Charge D'Affaires in Washington should be admitted to the bantaba.Then the question of his credibility came up.But it has never been suggested for anyone to leave the bantaba and certaintly, the Barry case would be a bad precedent.The List Management has always used a hands - off policy ( even though there were times when I felt management should have stepped in ) and I'd hope this unwritten law is respected in this instance.While members are entitled to and encouraged to participate in any discussion, we reserve the right to be silent and jump in any discussion as we find necessary.It shouldn't matter that Barry's first posting since becoming a member is on copyright issues.I plead guilty to infringement of copyright laws on the internet.In the wake of ' 94 coup, many of us became increasingly insatiable in our quest for information from Banjul.There was hardly a day when Pap Saine ( Reuters' Banjul correspondent ) didn't send a report on Gambia.I believe in the dissimination of information and back in those days, thanks to my internet provider I'd give print outs of news reports to friends.But the fact of the matter is, its illegal.While I didn't gain anything financially, Reuters might have lost potential customers. Barry doesn't claim to be a legal expert ( looking at his previous postings ) nor is he legislating or being a custodian of morality on Gambia - I.Hence, his postings on this subject should be seen as ' his opinion ' .We could agree or disagree.I concur with Mr. Katim Touray and sympathize with Barry's cause though I must confess I wouldn't stop making my occasional print outs, yet I would want him to remain a member of this electronic bantaba. Guess Tony [ Loum ] is waiting on the side lines and ready to jump in. I anticipate to be roasted... Musa Kebba Jawara. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:08:27 + 0200 MET From: "Alpha Robinson" <garob1@cip.hx.uni-paderborn.de> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <1055FDA3C1C@cip.hx.uni-paderborn.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I guess it would be unfair and dishonest of me not to comment on this issue. Since my joining this list various interesting documents have been posted, from which I have benefited. Personally, I harbour no feeling of guilt, but that is a personal choice based on a deeper sense of justice and philosophy, for knowledge has always been and is still collective. Notwithstanding "decency" requires of us that modern international laws and standards be "respected". Hence we must strive to understand the very essence of copyright. The main issue here is that producers of intellectual material are given legal protection against economic and moral abuse by copyright laws. Economic referring to the distribution of such works for economic gains which should otherwise have been due to the owner and moral in acknowledging the owners contribution and averting possible misreproduction or distortion. Exceptions to copyright exist in cases whereby the reproduction is done for purely intellectual purpose or where permission has been granted (in both cases acknowledgement of the source is binding). Unless otherwise proven, I would assume that no one reproduces copyright materials here for economic gains and that such materials do serve an intellectual purpose as is evident in the ensuing discussions ( I believe that sources are normally quoted too). On a more provocative and radical note, Africa should also learn to take what is good and useful for her people without asking for permission, where possible, as did others in their relations, past and present, to her. So, yes let it go on as Latir suggested and Barry may go ahead and imform Reuters if he so wishes. CASE CLOSED. regards, Alpha Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:56:42 +0200 From: "Momodou S Sidibeh" <momodou.sidibeh@stockholm.mail.telia.com> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: SV: Thanks! Message-ID: <199709241135.NAA12357@d1o2.telia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, I did not notice that Mr. Janneh was celebrating a birthday. In any case accept my congratulations. Sincerely wish you many many more returns. But I must caution both Jabou and yourself that I am from Kartong, just next door to you. So when you make statements such as Gunjur being something of a best(!) you might just be very provocative. Have you forgotten that all good things in Gunjur originate from Kartong, or that we have been always beating you at football? Besides, Gunjur is not a city. It is a sprawling village. Be Carefull, Modou Sidibeh ---------- > Fr�n: Gunjur@AOL.COM > Till: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > �mne: Re: Thanks! > Datum: den 23 september 1997 05:12 > > Amadou and Family, > > And wasn't that festival dominated by Gambians? So many of the vendors were > Gambians. l even met a lady from Serekunda who is a neighbour to one of my > sisters. She travels to the U.S each summer and spends her time doing all the > festivals around the country, and then leaves for Gambia in the fall. My best > friend of many years, who is a native Atlantan, made a comment about how > enterprising Gambians were. This is true. And l swear Gunjur IS! the most > livalble CITY in Gambia. > > Jabou Joh > > > In a message dated 9/22/97 4:28:56 PM, you wrote: > > <<Gambia-l: > > It tends to be a great experience when List members run into each other > across the country/globe, given the impersonal nature of the "bantaba." Such > an experience was my meeting with Jabou Joh and family at the 15th annual > African Street Festival in Nashville last weekend. Jabou is a very kind > person, to say the least. And, as it turned out, we were neighbors in Gunjur > (The Gambia's most livable city--according to a poll of 1,000 Gunjurians). > :) > > On another note, I wish to thank all those who sent me birthday greetings, > particularly Sarjo Bojang, Malanding Jaiteh, and Ancha Bala-Gaye. > > Salaam! > Amadou Scattred Janneh > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Received: from mrin78.mail.aol.com (mrin78.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.188]) by > air02.mail.aol.com (V32) with SMTP; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:28:56 -0400 > Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu (lists2.u.washington.edu > [140.142.56.1]) > by mrin78.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with ESMTP id RAA20304; > Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:28:24 -0400 (EDT) > Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id OAA25287; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:17 -0700 > Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id OAA05740 for <gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 > 14:27:58 -0700 > Received: from emin38.mail.aol.com (emout40.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.74]) > by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with ESMTP > id OAA00684 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:57 > -0700 > Received: by emin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA07163 for > gambia-l@u.washington.edu; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:27:22 -0400 (EDT) > Message-Id: <970922165224_1163772637@emout18.mail.aol.com> > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:27:22 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu > Sender: GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: ASJanneh@aol.com > To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List > <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > Subject: Thanks! > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > > >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:47:19 -0400 From: Andy Lyons <alyons@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Cc: tcdint01@mail.datanet.hu Subject: Tour operator seeks Gambian contacts Message-ID: <2.2.16.19970924144719.2a7f1dfa@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The message below was posted on the Holiday Experiences Message Board on The Gambia Resource Page. It seems this tour operator from Hungary wants to start working with a tour operator in Gambia. If any one can help, please contact the author directly. Thanks. Andy =============================================================== Andy Lyons The Gambia Resource Page alyons@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu http://grove.ufl.edu/~alyons =============================================================== >TCD Travel Agency >tcdint01@mail.datanet.hu >Budapest, 1010 Hungary >Dear Sirs, > >We are the Hungarian tour operator. We would be grateful, if you >offer us some tour operator in your beautiful country , in Gambia , >with whom we could start business contact. > > >Looking forward to hearing from you. >Yours sincerely. > >Mr Gyvrgy BUDAI >Office Manager > > >-Wednesday, September 24, 1997 at 03:08:00 (EDT) > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:12:41 +0000 From: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <3428CB79.6B34@ci.rech.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hghanim@nusacc.org wrote: > > Dr Katim > I respectfully disagree with the threat to the existence of the forum > because we are NOT getting any monetary compensation when we email it or > forward it to our friends. If I am wrong I stand corrected.... Sorry to correct you - but the issue of money is secondary to the permission to use. You must have permission from the copyright owner to re-distribute their material. Whether or not you re-distribute for money is matter between you and the copyright owner. Distributing without reward does NOT confer on you any rights. "Changing a few words" is a debatable matter. As I have said reporting that 'Reuters reports...' is permissible, within limits. However, I know of cases where Reuters and others have successfully prosecuted for what they and the courts considered was 'excessive' reference to copyright material. P.S. I would say there is a risk to the list or at least to the continued membership for some people if direct re-distribution continues. Bye, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:19:49 +0000 From: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) Message-ID: <3428CD25.6B33@ci.rech.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH wrote: I am Irish and therefore I would suggest that I know a great deal more than anyone here about national suffering etc., I did not ask for any consideration of my personal status in forwarding my message. I don't expect that it should be discussed here. I would suggest to those who wish to be abusive that there are plenty of news groups for anarchists etc., where you can vent your spleen. I would hope that this list was left to those who respect the law. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:04:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarian Loum <Sarian.Loum@Corp.Sun.COM> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <libSDtMail.9709241104.285.sarian@groucho> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: VTlBAOQMAnYx/vd/4rCGWA== <Based on what I have read in other issues of the Observer, I have> <gathered that these events have caused some to openly question the> <virtues of having a Secretary of State for Religious Affairs, and> <accordingly, some have also defended the state position in their letters> <to the editor. Our disscusions on this issue here in Gambia-L seem to> <mirror those back home.> If Gambia is truly a secular state then I failed to understand the need for the post of Religious Affairs. This is a good example of wasting tax payer's money, government should stay out of religious affairs and let the individuals worship freely. I was really hesistant to get into this religious debate but I'd like to correct some of us who beleive Gambia is a very tolerant state when it comes to religion. Non-muslims have been ostracized every now and then and insults hurled at us (Gourmet you haram yile) when we worship and especially when we have church processions in the streets of Banjul. People cut procession lines with obscenities and thats why up till today we have police leading church processions to maintain peace and order. That in my opinion is not the meaning of religious tolerance although not all Gambian Muslims do that but the fact is, it exist. Our family suffered a great deal of inuslts living in Half-Die surrounded by almost all muslim neighbors and the mosque directly opposite our house. If anything gets break or damage around the mosques by the very moslem boys, they blamed my brothers and hurled insults at us referring to us as "Gourmet you haram yile", when it was their very own kids playing soccer. I'm sure Webster can remember those days. We were once denied permit to celebrate a cousins wedding (sabarr in our compound) because they say some of the elder moslems complained that their prayers will be disturbed even though when they start praying we stop the drumming. Maybe some of you guys are not aware of it but there is indeed great religous intolerance in Gambia. One would think that the more educated in the Quaran you are one would know better but that certainly wasn't the case with Mam Cham. I don't know what his proper Islamic title would be but he used to head the dara right in front of the mosque and he had so much hatred for Christians that he constantly called us Yaafarr. I'm certain Jabou Joh and the older list members who lived in Half-Die knew about Mam Cham and her anti-non moslems beliefs. He even told one man who named his daughter after my mother that Margaret (Maggie for short) was a yaafarr name and he shouldn't called his daughter that name anymore so the poor man adopted the name Fatou Sagnia. Mam Cham would not touch food or sarahh that comes from our compound, he was always hateful. But the late Imam Lamin Bah never hurled insults at christians infact he is definitely one person I could say had relgious tolerance and had lots of christian friends including his very own first cousin Pa Rene Blaine who were in and out of his compound a lot. Ok enough for all this lamentation, but hopefully you've got my point that there is indeed religious intolerance in our beloved country. Majority does not equate beloved Gambia an Islamic or a certain religous sect state. cheers, sarian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:52:33 -0500 From: Tamsir Mbai <mba4224@etbu.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970924133501.31976932@etbu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Everybody, I have always had a wont to put myself in a vulnerable position where I could be chastised. So why not do what I do best, and put myself in that predicament again. I have been quite passive over the last several months. Nonetheless, I have been following some of the discussions on Gambia-L. Somehow I felt obliged to jump in, just when the subject of copyright issues raised by Barry Mahon has been overly beaten, to further partition the already wide difference in opinion on the matter. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like everybody who has commented on the subject agrees that "redistribution, dissemination, reproduction, ..." or whatever fancy word you choose to use for the provision of copyright material to somebody else without the consent of the proprietor is ILLEGAL. This is exactly the point that Barry has espoused on. In my opinion, he has NOT YET acted as the custodian for the enforcement of this delicate international law. He is by no means the ethical policeman of copyright law, but his point should be seen as VALID and as a matter of Barry's personal opinion. If you ask me, I will share whatever information I deem relevant to The Gambia with other members of this list, but that DOESN'T make it legal. So spare Barry the whiplash. He doesn't deserve it, and quite frankly, I think several of us owe him an apology. When we crave so much for democracy and the freedom of self expression, why shouldn't Barry be given a chance to have an opposing view? _________________________ OBSERVATION ________________________ The manifestation of this high degree of intolerance towards those with opposing views is one of many reasons why we have too many dictators in Africa. We try to impose our thoughts and ideas on other people, and as a result, opposing views are usually seen as a sign of enmity or on the political level, as an anathema to the state. Consequently, it is not uncommon to see such forces eliminated through summary executions, imprisonment, or sometimes through banishment (exile). One of those methods, banishment, is being suggested for Barry. Let's learn to respect our differences. That is what makes life so interesting. Barry, you wrote that "I am Irish and therefore I would suggest that I know a great deal more than anyone here about national suffering etc." Wow, wow, hold on a minute!!! Need I remind you of slavery and the perpetual tragedy that Black Africa is going through in terms of economic depravation and psychological traumatisation partly caused by our colonial masters? I think NOT. Your struggle to "STAND UP" against England started not too long ago. Black people and the nations of Black Africa have been "UNDER THE STAND" for centuries. Thank you. Peace to everybody and good luck in your endeavours. Now I can go back to hibernation. It's Tamsir. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:25:36 -0700 From: MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <m.gassama@swipnet.se> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <3429F5D0.217E@swipnet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! It is rather joyful to hear that the government has taken gestures to woo the Ahmaddiyas back and to declare the freedom of all to worship as they please as provided in the constitution. It is more pleasing to hear that the state media houses have been ordered to stop broadcasting sectarian attacks. I think the government needs to take the further step of at least questioning the existence a Religious Affairs ministerial portfolio. = I hope that ordinary Gambians will follow the government=B4s steps and realise that all the people living in The Gambia have a constitutional right to worship what they believe in. To each individual, what he/she believes in is the right thing to believe in. Otherwise he/she would not believe in it. Another thing we need to realise is that The Gambia is a multi-cultural society with different tribes, religions etc. It has been so created and so shall it be. To try to change it would negate the very existence of "The Gambia". If for example, the country was supposed to be only for the Wollofs, it would probably have been called "Jollof". If it was supposed to be for the Mandinkas, it would probably have been called "Manding" etc. If it was meant for one religion, maybe it would have been called something else. It is however called "The Gambia" because it is a rainbow of tribes, beliefs, cultures, complexions etc. each complementing the other. Instead of narrowmindedly condemning those who are different from us in one way or the other, we should be working on strengthening and taking advantage of our diversity to take our country forward. If we are not successful in doing this then all our efforts at developing and making the country a good place for us and our descendants will come to nought. I believe that the day the concept of "The Gambia" is negated through attempts at deletion of any of the tribes, religions etc. would be the day that the country will disintegrate. Let us therefore work towards strengthening the bonds that hold us together as Gambians. It would indeed be very boring if there were only Wollofs or Mandingoes or Fulas or Muslims or Christians etc. in The Gambia. Sorry for straying a bit but I just couldn=B4t help writing about the importance of tolerating, appreciating and thereby maintaining the very essence of The Gambia. Buharry. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= Latir Downes-Thomas wrote: > = > I just read an article in the September 15 issue of the Daily Observer > titled "Ahmadiyya-Gov't Impasse Resolved". > = > The Observer reports that "the misunderstanding between the Gambian > authorities and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat is now reslovled, following= > the decision by the Government to declare its commitment to secularism > and absolute justice." > = > The non-Gambian Ahmadis abrubtly left The Gambia on September 3 > following an order from their Imam after a culmination of events that > began in June when State House Imam Fatty made remarks against the sect= > and the Ahmadiyya programmes were pulled from Radio Gambia and Gambia > TV. > = > According to the Observer, "the new Amir of the Ahmadiyya Jamaat in The= > Gambia, Baba Trawally, said he had received a release from the Ahmadiyy= a > leader, Khalifatul Masih IV, in London". In that release, the > Khalifatul Masih, Harzat Mirza Tahir Ahmed says: > = > "I am glad to infrom the people of the Gambia that the most recent vita= l > decisions taken by the Right Honourable President Jammeh of the Gambia > regarding the nature of the Gambian government and her unconditional > commitment to secularism and absolute justice are most cordially > welcomed by me." In the release he goes on to say that the decisions > are " wise and bold decisions which have dispelled all fears regarding > The Gambia being turned into an intolerable theocracy. The entire worl= d > would be happy to listen to the President's statements as widely > published by the media. The world of Ahmadiyya is particular pleased > and indebted to the Right Honerable President for the said decisions." > = > Among those non-Gambian Ahmadis who left were two doctors but according= > to the Khalifatul Masih, he ordered them to return immediately to open > the hospitals that were also closed. The initial delay was due to > unavailbale airline seats back to the Gambia but now he explained, " > according to immigration laws of the country, we have been served notic= e > by the Immigration that they cannot visit The Gambia again without > seeking new permissions. The papers they have demanded will soon be > submitted and now it entirely depends on them how fast they can process= > papers and grant new permits." > = > In the same article the Obsever also reported that in a release, Momodo= u > Bojang, Secretary of State for Interior and Religious affairs, stated > that " the government upholds religious rights and freedoms as enshrine= d > in the constitution and as such both Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis are > entitled to their respective religious belief and worship as long as th= e > security of the country is not threatened." According to the Observer,= > Bojang also assured the country that the governement has no intention o= f > confiscating the properties of the Ahmadiyya Jamaat "particularly now > that the Jamaat is headed by indigenous Gambian citizens." > = > In an article in the September 15 issue of The Point the correspondent > Mbye B. Saine reported that Secretary of State Bojang made assurances i= n > a press conference on September 9 that the departure of the sect will > cause no vacuum. Saine reports that "Mr. Bojang explanied that the > government, will manage their facilities so that it continues to render= > better services to the people and this will also apply to their schools= > which have enjoyed government subventions for a long time. He added > that government pays the saleries of some teachers in these schools and= > the Ahmadis only administer them." > = > It is also mentioned in the article that Bojang said he considers the > Ahmadis to be muslims and in his response to their letters on the issue= > of verbal attacks made against them, he ordered all state media houses > to cease the broadcasting of sectarian attacks. > = > In the press conference, according to The Point, Bojang had some words > for BBC stringer Ebrima Sallah on a report he filed on the affair, a > report that he believed was all lies. He told Sallah, "You didn't pich= > out of my press release because you intended to cause misinformation." > = > "You are talking to a Secretary of State, somebody who can lock you up > antytime...even today, before you leave here. So don't thjreaten your > situation. You don't have to be rude. You are too young to be > destroyed." > = > In another article in the same issue of The Point, Emuran Saidy reporte= d > that Mr. Karamo Bojang, the acting Principal of Nusrat, an Ahmadiyya > school, told his students that the school will continue to operate. > According to Saidy, he also said that while the principals of Tahir and= > Nasir Senior Secondary Schools had all left, "he was assigned by the ne= w > Amir Baba Trawally to go and ask the teachers (staffs) to go on with > their job and enroll new students." > = > Based on what I have read in other issues of the Observer, I have > gathered that these events have caused some to openly question the > virtues of having a Secretary of State for Religious Affairs, and > accordingly, some have also defended the state position in their letter= s > to the editor. Our disscusions on this issue here in Gambia-L seem to > mirror those back home. > = > Peace > = > Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:28:14 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please... Message-ID: <19970924202914.AAA39658@LOCALNAME> Gambia-l, I agree with Barry that any copyright material is solely the intellectual property of the owner and must not be produced or posted without the consent of the copyright owner. However, as one of the members who sends news articles from other sources/Networks which most of you do not have access to, I do not feel that I should stop just because Barry says so. I intend to continue sharing any information with members of the list feel is relevant for The Gambia. Below is an extract from a news article which I still find very interesting, though it has been sent to the list before. The article was written on 24th June 1997 from a conference held in Toronto on the vital role of knowledge and information technology in development. **************************START**************************** Extract from IPS news article Title: DEVELOPMENT: Knowledge, a Weapon Against Poverty "Annan argued that development, peace and democracy were no longer the exclusive responsibility of governments, global institutions or inter-governmental bodies. ''The great democractisation of power of information has given us all the chance to effect change and alleviate poverty in ways we cannot even imagine today,'' he said. ''With knowledge a potential for all, the path to poverty can be reversed. Knowledge is power. Information is liberating. Education is the premise of progress, in every society, in every family.'' The U.N. Secretary-General is convinced that it is ignorance, not knowledge, that makes enemies of men, that turns children into fighters. ''It is ignorance, not knowledge, that leads some to advocate tyranny over democracy,'' he added. ''It is ignorance not knowledge that makes some think that human misery is inevitable.'' Without true democracy, the information revolution is unthinkable, according to the UN head. ''Access is crucial. The capacity to receive, download and share information through electronic networks, the ability to publish newspapers without censorship or restrictions, the freedom to communicate freely across national boundaries ... must become fundamental freedoms for all,'' he said. ''Communications and information technology have enormous potential, especially for developing countries, and in furthering sustainable development,'' added Annan. ''But that also means that the information gap is the new dividing line between the haves and have nots, those forging new paths to development and those increasingly left behind.'' Bridging the gap requires continued investment in human capital in developing countries, and in making knowledge universally accessible, as Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni noted. ''In the past, unequal access to knowledge incited the strong to aggress the weak,'' he said. ''It is only the universalisation of knowledge that will create a world equilibrium where nobody will have the edge of knowledge to use to the detriment of others. ''... the aggressive instinct in man is essentially calculative. You only attack the weak, you only attack the backward without access to knowledge. It is not profitable to aggress the equally knowledgeable who, most probably, will be equally strong.'' Museveni added that, as time goes on and humanity becomes ''civilised, it will be clear to all that knowledge applied to wars is a waste of time. ''This realisation, however, is still a distance away.'' In the meantime, the world's poorer nations can ill afford to lag behind in the field of information technology given the intense competition for new markets that characterises the global economy. " *****************************END****************************' Thanks for reading Momodou Camara *************************************************** http://home3.inet.tele.dk/mcamara "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible and suddenly you are doing the impossible"* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu> To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970924092834.27843O-100000@saul7.u.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII " Guess Tony [ Loum ] is waiting on the side lines and ready to jump in. I anticipate to be roasted..." Musa Kebba Jawara. Thank you Musa for your suggestion of my input in this delicate matter which was going to be done since I was reflecting and researching more about this issue. Being a librarian, supervisor of public and technical services in the nation's 12th largest academic and research library with well over 5 million volumes, I constantly work with faculty members in the areas of copyrighted materials involving materials to be placed on reserve. One thing that I have found out is that Academic institutions have much more protection under the fair use guidelines than other organizations. As was pointed out by many of you, nobody is making any money in Gambia-l or for that matter any commercial gains from the news stories being distributed. Initially, I thought that we could be protected under that clause but our University of Washington ( UW ) copyright officer refuted that claim. When asked the specific question about the legality of forwarding copyrighted news stories in listservs, the officer indicated that it was a violation of the copyright laws ( at least of The United States ) We could just have been operating similar to the Clinton Administration's " don't ask, don't tell " policy on Gays but since the issue has been raised by Barry, we have to deal with the tough reality of addressing and resolving it. Katim raised some valid points regarding this practice and the possible ramifications on the list. I deeply share his concerns. I am sure that everyone will agree that Gambia-l has been a very good forum which should continue. It has brought us together. Few days ago, Amadou Janneh pointed out the impersonal nature of it which is literally true, but for me I feel this personal connection to everyone on the list despite the fact that we have never met. I have reconnected with long time friends, schoolmates and neighbors after years and years of not having seen each other. Examples are my longtime school mate Habib Diab and neighbor Jabu Joh. Therefore, anything that would risk that privilege is unthinkable to me. Katim pointed out that Gambia-l is hosted by an academic institution ( UW ) which could be jeopardized if this copyrighted issues should be reported to its authorities. I totally agree with him. Compounded to that, my job and livelihood could be at risk if any legal actions could result especially being the primary sponsor of Gambia-l in this institution. I am aware of the fact that there are other academic institutions that have the capability of hosting Gambia-l but whether they will be willing is another question. UW has stood by us from the beginning and have been very reliable, despite few technicals problems here and there which is normal because I am not sure if there is any system with 100% efficiency rate. From my personal point of view, I wish that this issue had never surfaced because I like the policy of forwarding news stories verbatim but if the legality of such a practice is questioned, then we should reevaluate the policy. On that I concur with Katim that inorder to be on the safe side and protect our interest, we should stop the practice of forwarding the copyrighted news stories. Let us look at a hyperthetical example similar to Latjorr. If for some reasons, Barry decided to be vindictive ( I am hoping that he does not ) and reported the matter to Reuters and UW authorities, that can lead to an unpleasant situation. Although some listservs engage in the news story forwarding practice, we should not just emulate those examples. I know that this will be a bitter pill to swallow but the wollof proverb " DEGA KANI LA " ( truth hurts or burns like hot pepper ) is true. Again for the protection of the list and for my own job here at UW, I agree that we should stop the news forwarding practice despite the fact that I personally had engaged in that practice in the past. I am inviting Abdou Touray, the other manager to share his view on this issue along with the other subscription managers also. Thanks Tony Loum *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** Anthony W Loum 206-543-4360 Voice Supervisor, Foster Business Libary 206-616-6430 Fax University of Washington tloum@u.washington.edu Box 353224 Seattle, Wa.98195-3200 *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:30:21 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'Gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <Gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <01BCC952.A6F1D8A0@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH [SMTP:kolls567@qatar.net.qa] Sent: 23 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 12:51 O To: 'A. Loum' Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... We would have continued the Don't-ask,Don't-tell policy for eternity had = mother luck not given us Barry Mahon.The Reuters would be very proud of = the achievement of their man in the Gambia-l today! Congratulations = Barry! My instincts rarely fail me, and I am glad that they got it right = this time around also.History will register your name as the person who = was the first to make trouble for the Gambia-L,the person supposedly = volunteering for the Gambian people.Ironic,isn't it? Regards Bassss!! -----Original Message----- From: A. Loum [SMTP:tloum@u.washington.edu] Sent: 23 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 12:01 O To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... " Guess Tony [ Loum ] is waiting on the side lines and ready to jump = in. I anticipate to be roasted..." Musa Kebba Jawara. .. Again for the protection of the list and for my own job here at UW, I agree that we should stop the news = forwarding practice despite the fact that I personally had engaged in that practice in the past. I am inviting Abdou Touray, the other manager to share his view on this issue along with the other subscription managers also. Thanks Tony Loum =20 *********************************************************************= ** *********************************************************************= ** =20 Anthony W Loum 206-543-4360 Voice Supervisor, Foster Business Libary 206-616-6430 Fax University of Washington tloum@u.washington.edu Box 353224 Seattle, Wa.98195-3200 =20 *********************************************************************= ** *********************************************************************= **=20 =20 =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:52:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> To: Gambia <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Out of man's rib God created "woman" (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709241821.A14111-0100000@mach1.wlu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought this was kinda funny. Ancha. God was walking by the Garden of Eden one day and decided to stop in for a little visit with Adam. "How are thing going, Adam, " God said. "Not so good'" said Adam. "Why, what's wrong?" said God. "I created a Paradise on Earth for you. Why aren't you happy?" "I'm just SO bored.....I don't have anyone to talk too, I don't have anyone to have fun with! I don't have a computer. (...just thought I'd slip that one in...tee hee....) "I'm just really bored" Adam exclaimed. "Bored, bored, bored." "Well, I can fix that," said God. "What you need is a companion! I can make someone for you who will go anywhere you want to go, do anything you want to do, clean your house, cook gourmet meals, do all your shopping, bear your children. A partner who not only will be very beautiful, but will wait on you hand and foot, obey your every command and never complain or grow weary. This companion will take care of all your needs and will be kind, loving, trustworthy, dependable, obedient ..... every thing you've ever dreamed of" said God. "Oh, yes," Adam said joyfully. "That sounds wonderful! But....how much is this going to cost me?" God looked at him and said "Well, for all that, it will have to cost you an arm and a leg." Adam sat down and thought about it for a few seconds. He looked up at God and said, "How much of that can I get for just a rib?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:21:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> To: Gambia <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709241928.A14111-0100000@mach1.wlu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tamsir Mbai wrote: > If you ask me, I will share whatever information I deem relevant to > The Gambia with other members of this list, but that DOESN'T make it legal. > So spare Barry the whiplash. He doesn't deserve it, and quite frankly, I > think several of us owe him an apology. When we crave so much for democracy > and the freedom of self expression, why shouldn't Barry be given a chance to > have an opposing view? I couldn't agree more Tamsir. I think that Barry was worried about the list or at least some members of it getting into trouble and that's why he brought up the subject. Just cause some people are annoyed by it or don't want to hear it, doesn't mean that the subject shouldn't be brought up and even harped on, if it means getting the message across and having people adhere to the warnings. Ancha. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:25:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Ancha Bala-Gaye u <bala7500@mach1.wlu.ca> To: Gambia <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Monogamy -Reply (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9709241915.A14111-0100000@mach1.wlu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII been having some computer problems hence my silence. I tried to send this message a while ago and couldn't. Anyway, thought to do so now. Ancha. On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Ndey Drammeh wrote: > Hi Bass, > Just because monogamy can get boring is certainly no > excuse for one to be promiscuous or to practice polygamy. One has to > be willing to continuously try to inject excitement into a relationship, be it a monogamous or polygamous one, to keep it alive. I couldn't agree more Ndey Kumba. I think it's called a commitment which I think more women than men honour. And that is why we hear more women complain about it than men. I think that if one goes into a relationship and both parties decide to go STEADY, then I think that it's all about not just keeping your word to your partner, but also respecting him/her enough to tell them when you are unable to keep your original promise, istaed of trying to be a player. > Being committed to one person for eternity may not be easy for some > people, but then again, nothing good in life comes easily. It is my belief > that with commitment, love and honesty, monogamy can and does work. > The key is for both parties to be fully committed to making the relationship > work!! > I totally agree. AND................. > >>> BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> 09/18/97 > 07:16am >>> > Amy! > So,maybe you should tell us how women feel about sticking to only one partner for ever and ever Amen! Regards Basss! As I said earlier on, I think women feel more honour bound to try and make a relationship work. I think they also know that it isn't easy and hence don't quit as easily as men do (in general, since there're always exceptions) ie they don't try to find comfort elsewhere when things don't work out the way they expected or wanted them to. Another thing is that when women decide to play the field, they are called sluts ( excuse the language) etc. while men are considered studs. Societies' different view points of both sexes under the same circumstances, has made sure that there are less women that will be promiscuous than men overall. I think women also would like to find happiness. I don't see how one can be happy with many partners cause who'll be there for you and with you at the end of the road??? or when the hard times come??? Your family of course but what if they can't be there??? A real partner is one that can be there for and with you through the good and bad times. before I start repeating myself, I better stop here. Any comments??? Ancha. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:17:33 -0400 (EDT) From: MSarr27100@aol.com To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy Message-ID: <970924221351_-899568704@emout15.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.27703.emout15.mail.aol.com.875153630" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.27703.emout15.mail.aol.com.875153630 Content-ID: <0_27703_875153631@emout15.mail.aol.com.14256> Content-type: text/plain There will be a demonstration at the Gambian embassy tomorrow from 12 noon to 2pm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:26:59 PDT From: "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> To: Gambia-L@u.washington.edu Subject: My replies and "CLITTERECTOMY " Message-ID: <19970925022702.18108.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain M'BADING BANTABA 'NKOOLY,.....as some of my dear mandinka friends would say...... 'ALLI BE' DII??? This is njaga again, the notorious Gambian in Hilly-Billy Land. i had hoped that i would be more participative in this list as soon as school opened. This has not been so. i have simply been too occupied to sometimes even be able to read my E-mail on a weekly basis. I am currently carrying an 18hr credit semester (in my junior year) including my internship. I am also working part-time to keep up with my bills, i also got an 18hrs a week work-study. Oh!!! sometimes i wish somebody would hold their arms up to stop the sun from setting on my battlefield... Anyway, i have been able to read some interesting stuff on this list from time to time. i have not been replying. I however, have had somethings that i would like to discuss with "ya'all" that have come up in my classes and social encounters here at K.S.U. i would like to have yo'all's insights and opinions on them. i however realize that to ask that of yo'all would be unfair on my part if i dont actively participate in ya'all's discussions. so from now on, i am making it my personal challenge to at least keep up to date on issues in this list not just by reading them, but also by replying. i will manufacture at least an hour or two of every other day to dedicate to this task.REPRIORYTIZE AND RE-ARGANIZE!!! now to the issues.::: i have read of stuff from A. Haley's fabrication, to polygamy, from senegambian issues to the ahmaddiyan issue. i may not be able to reply in detail to all that i read, but i will touch as much as i can before i bring up my topic. HALEY'S ROOTS: THE GUY EXCERCISED HIS POETIC (or whatever) LINCENCE. Any one who read roots or watched the movie should have known it was too streamlined and dramatic. it was still a good work, inciteful. there is just no way of accurately reconstructing events that happened so long ago relying mostly on human memory and records that were mostly written by the slave-drivers. biased, for one thing. Polygamy: monogamy is not boring, it is the partners that get boring. Any relationship would have to last only as long as the reasons for which it started are still there. i console those who had grown up in tumoultous polygamous environs, but that is not good enough reason to abolish it in the gambia. what would this achieve? look at nations where it is illegal (polygamy). the law forbits two marriage contracts by the same person at the same time, but what about sex and relationships outside of marriage? how many monogamous homes have been broke because of it? it is human nature to seek new to seek new and unexplored grounds. Islam permits up to four wives and only if one can afford it. most of the time, however, it is not done the right way. i come from a large jagnen family with many mothers and one dad, but we are all so blessed enough to realise that we are one family. i just love all my brothrs and sistren. This has helped me a lot in loving everyoneelse in this world. afterall we all came from adam and eve,........didn't we???? SENEGAMBIA : First of all, lets think.."divide and conquer" Colonialism. sENEGAL and the Gambia are one. made of one people of same or similar history and ancestry. britain's interest was just in the river Gambia for trade and access to inland. without any regard for the local people, they decided at their """"""berlin conference""""" to carve out the gambia from the french. The Gambia has always been closer to senegal than Cassamance. the territory of cassamance was simply ruled by the french....that is why it was merged with senegal. A lot of trouble could have been avoided today had the likes of senghore nad the colonialists simply listened to a certain (jola?) priest in the handling of it at independence. are we still being somehow subject to divide and rule when we say we ahte those arrogant "graan's". we are one people. AHMADDIYAN: THIS is a very delicateissue. where do we draw the line in the gambia between democracy (including the freedom of religion), and Islamic teachings. simply warning unwary muslims is one thing, but running them out of the country is a whole other issue. democracy is a western idea, Islam originated from arabia, both are imported into africa by various means. THEY CONFLICT!!!..... BOTH CANNOT BE PRACTICED TOGETHER.... I WILL TRY WRITING MORE AND MORE IN DETAILED as time goes on and i catch up with the rest of you guys ( offense to my sistren) NOW... ***CLITTERRECTOMY****.... it was touched in class one day not so long ago by a professor. of all the things he said, the thing that stuck out to me was that " this painful operation is performed for no other major reason than to deprive the woman of any pleasure in the sex act." this to me denotes a male conspiracy to reduce their women to nothing other than tools for child-bearing and indulgence. i argued with him and wrote my essay on this topic for his class, but he still maintains his position.. untill i can prove him wrong or bring him candid proove of any othe reason(s).i know i cant make sense of it and that it is painful (the traditional way without any painkillers). i just can't see it's practical purpose except to uphold a tradition. i don't think even islam calls for it (unlike it's male version, which is also done for sanitary reasons, as well as traditional). i think it should be stopped. i have seen children screaming and trying to run away, bloodied and hurt. ANYWAY, I invite responses to this. especially about the removal of pleasure in the sex act part. i would dearly love to know if anyone has ever heard of this reason being given before. and who the coinspirers were. i would also dearly love to know just how it came to be found out. if i remember right' it is the female kind themselves that perform this controversial operation on other females. i await your comments. i wiil now surf the net for any info on it. AAL NING' BARRA. YENDU LEEN AK JAMMA. YO' ALL NEVER FORGET TO HAVE FUN. IT IS EASIER TO LOVE THAN TO HATE. HATRED HURTS THE HATER. THE LOVER IS LOVED. IT IS EASIER TO SMILE THAN TO FROWN. I BELIEVE IN THE INHERENT GOODNESS OF MANKIND .... LET'S PRAY TO GOD WHEN WE SEMM LOST SHE WIILLLLLL GUIDE US. AS' SALAAM. N J A G A ........ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:37:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: Sarian.Loum@corp.sun.com, Gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <970924223527_1923499146@emout09.mail.aol.com> SArian, l remember Mam Cham well. lnfact, l was one of his students at the Dara. l never knew that any of this was going on between him and your family, and my guess is that most of the other people in the neighbourhood were not aware of it. However, l think that the respect and consideration your family received from the former Imam Bah and his family, was the same kind you received from my grandmother and the rest of the families in our former neighbourhood. Am l right on this? l am sure that your family never experienced this sort of treatment from the other people in that neighbourhood, and that says a lot more than Mam Cham's insults. l remember all of us interacting in a very positive way indeed. Jabou Joh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:40:54 PDT From: "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> To: MSarr27100@AOL.COM Cc: GAMBIA-L@U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy Message-ID: <19970925024054.25881.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain N > >There will be a demonstration at the Gambian embassy tomorrow from 12 noon to >2pm. > i read your posting and i give you my full support, these allegations should be investigated. what has our beloved gambia benn reduced to?? another third-world thug-ruled nation. are we no longer the smile on the coast of west africa?????? right on... N J A G A. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:44:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) Message-ID: <970924224330_-696893427@emout15.mail.aol.com> Barry, l suggest you join the anarchist discussion groups and leave us to discuss and share what we deem of importance to us. l am sure that would take care of the problem. Jabou Joh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:52:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) Message-ID: <970924225015_1731191822@emout06.mail.aol.com> Bass, My sentiments exactly! Jabou In a message dated 9/23/97 11:04:09 AM, you wrote: <<Mr.Ghanim! Thanks very much for your response! It turns out that BARRY MAHON is exactly what he was protesting that he wasn't: a Trouble Maker.If he is on the PAYROLL of Reuters or Pana or whatever News Organisation he is part-timing for as an Intellectual Property Policeman,he would be well advised to register himself to another Chat Group and leave our this tiny and friendly Gambian group in peace. I believe Mr.Touray is a very smart Gambian,but I found it profoundly disturbing that at time when he was belittling the significance of KNOWING that 10 or 20 people are ambushed in Cassamance,he was giving too much time on allaying the fears and petty moral concerns of someone (Barry Mahon) who has contributed almost nothing to the issues that are discussed here on the list.Barry should and must not be given the impression that he has the slightest moral authority to tell us what to do or what not to do.If he is that much in psychological need of being a head master,he should build himself a school somewhere in the United Kingdom,not far from the Reuters Headquarters,and teach British children how morally reprehensible it is to Redistribute information collected by Reuters without first getting clearance from its headquaters. For us(SeneGambians and friends of SeneGambia) to know the blood of how many of our brethren was senselessly spilled in Cassamance carries a far more moral weight and cannot even be compared to the negligible risk we run by making such an information available for free.But someone like Barry would neither be able to grasp or feel that,would he?! Regards Bassss! ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Received: from mrin75.mail.aol.com (mrin75.mail.aol.com [152.163.116.113]) by air16.mail.aol.com (V32) with SMTP; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:04:08 -0400 Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu (lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1]) by mrin75.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA20224; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id JAA22089; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:03:34 -0700 Received: from mx2.u.washington.edu (mx2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA15886 for <gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:03:06 -0700 Received: from qatar.net.qa (qatar.net.qa [194.133.33.11]) by mx2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA27482 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:03:02 -0700 Received: from kolls567 by qatar.net.qa (SMI-8.6/Qatar-Internet-Sendmail It's now Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:58:16 -0300) id SAA11227; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:58:16 -0300 Received: by kolls567 with Microsoft Mail id <01BCC853.71C97480@kolls567>; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:03:57 +0300 Message-Id: <01BCC853.71C97480@kolls567> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:01:57 +0300 Reply-To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Sender: GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCC853.71DA3D60" X-To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:17:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Out of man's rib God created "woman" (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970924230932.5352B-100000@acc5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ancha: You are a brave woman with a great sense of humor. You cracked me up with this one... > He lookedup at God and said, > Adam sat down and thought about it for a few seconds. > He lookedup at God and said, > "How much of that can I get for just a rib?" missing any on either side. I guess Adam had a spare rib cause we men are surely not missing any on either side. every society creates a cosmogony that will reflect their On a more serious note, I think many fail to understand that every society creates a cosmogony that will reflect their understanding/perception of the workings of Nature (the divine, etc...). Their 'Creation Story' reflects their cultural outlook. Some even produce 2 cosmogonies (or more) as is the case with the West (Judeo-Christianity and the 'Big Bang!'). If you examine 'Semitic' culture you will understand why there is an inherent bias against women. If you study Toubab culture you will understand why they also readily accepted these biases when they adopted Christianity. Our cultures and their atendant cosmogonies speak to a differnt truth. Unfortunately most of us today ar not acquainted with them and readily, unquestioningly accept other peoples versions! Mazrui's 'Triple Heritage' cannot be truly triple until we be acquainted with what is ours by birth! LatJor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:17:49 -0500 (EST) From: "YAYA S. SISAY" <sisayy@wabash.edu> To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: New Member Message-ID: <3C64A716A3@scholar.wabash.edu> Wassup Momodou. I have a Gambian uncle that want to be a member of Gambia-l. His name is Momodou Jagne. His email address is JagneM@wabash. edu. I'll really appreciate if you sign him in. thank you. Peace! Yaya! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:18:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: SV: Thanks! Message-ID: <970924225940_1399144456@emout17.mail.aol.com> Momodou, Don't start another Gunjur, Kartong war. You guys know that we are your capital. Jabou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:33:50 -0700 From: MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA <m.gassama@swipnet.se> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy Message-ID: <342A683E.4D88@swipnet.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! Just out of curiosity (because I am a continent away from America), what are you going to protest against? Buharry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- MSarr27100@aol.com wrote: > > There will be a demonstration at the Gambian embassy tomorrow from 12 noon to > 2pm. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Name: PRESSREL.DOC > Part 1.2 Type: zz-application/zz-winassoc-doc > Encoding: base64 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:48:18 -0700 From: Abdou Touray <abdou@cs.columbia.edu> To: "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu> Cc: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <342A4172.DCF03F25@cs.columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, I think that the issue of copyright infringement has largely decided itself ; we have little option but to stop the practice. Given the potential liabilities we face, it is time to think about ways of ensuring that we not only continue getting the news, but that we do so in a legal and tenable way. First, we should have a mechanism for deterring the posting of copyrighted material. Apart from moral suasion and running a moderated list, I can think of few other ways of stopping these materials from the list. Expelling members for posting copyrighted material is likely to be detrimental to the long-term interests of the list given the sad history of free speech in Gambian discourse. So we need to come up with some creative solutions. Noone has ever been expelled from Gambia-l and we should keep it that way. We should also explore the possibility of approaching some of the media concerns for permission to use/post material from their stories. Since this is a non-profit venture, this approach might not be entirely unfeasible. In any case, before we come up with a strategy, members should refrain, at least for now, from posting copyrighted material. Thanks and bye for now, -Abdou. ************************************************************************** A.TOURAY Computer Science Columbia University New York, NY 10027 MY URL ON THE WWW= http://www.cc.columbia.edu/~at137 A FINITE IN A LAND OF INFINITY. SEEKING BUT THE REACHABLE. I WANDER AND I WONDER. ALAS, ALL RESPITE IS FINAL. ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:25:11 -0400 (EDT) From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <970925012510_336809412@emout08.mail.aol.com> Gambia-l: perhaps we can get the Ahmadiyya perspective from Amir Baba Trawally ( a fellow 1986 alumnus of Knoxville College). I am waiting to hear from him. Peace! Amadou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:32:48 -0400 (EDT) From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <970925023247_1865406585@emout02.mail.aol.com> Gambia-l: Ordinarily, I would have continued distributing relevant news pieces to Gambia-l ESPECIALLY because of Barry's admonition or outcry. But our relationship with the University of Washington and Tony Loum's position are far more important than any benefits to be derived from doing that. It's time for Barry to pat himself on the back for raising the issue and educating some of us on the implications, and then move on. For many, the frustration comes from Barry's tampering with the List's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy (borrowing from an earlier contributor & the Clinton Administration) and his persistence on the copyright matter. Whatever the case, we should cease the practice and not get bogged down to Barry and the copyright issue any further (my opinion). Consideration must be given to Tony's concerns. That said, I plan to devise ways of getting news items to all interested parties through means other than Gambia-l. The risks will be mine, of course. Perhaps Momodou Camara can assist me in this regard. Sources of all news items will continue to be indicated, as we have always done. Ala baraka! Amadou Scattred Janneh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:05:33 -0500 From: "Katim S. Touray" <dekat@itis.com> To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Telecommunications in Africa Message-ID: <199709250709.CAA26035@tower.itis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, i think it's rather unfortunate that the debate on the legality of posting copyrighted articles has distracted us from what was a great opportunity for a more lively, and constructive debate. now that the debate on copyright laws is, for all intents and purposes over, i think we should turn to issues raised in Barys' other posting. to refresh your memories, Bary Mahon sent a posting last Monday about Internet development in The Gambia. it read: > Actually the Ministry of Works, Communications, etc., organised the > meeting. It was to mark the visit of a UNDP delegation to The Gambia > when they signed a memorandum with the govt., under which UNDP will > provide funding for up to three years for Internet development here. The > idea is that the private sector will be as involved as possible. Gamtel > will provide the basic access, using a subsidy of 50% from UNDP for a > 512k line to the Internet, but will not monopolise the access, i.e. > private sector ISPs (Internet Service Providers) will be encouraged. The > access will be subsidised for the initial period (expected to start in > early '98). the first thing i said when i read it was 'here we go again!' while i welcome any efforts at increasing and improving Internet connectivity in The Gambia, i'm not sure i would have any of the UN and other International development agencies hold us by the hand. i mean, we've put our eggs in their baskets for 30 years and what do we have to show for it. as far as i'm concerned, all these development agencies come with a frame of mind that belongs to the past, not the future. even though one can argue that despite the mistakes made, they all mean us well, i would hasten to add that as the saying goes: 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' my feeling is that UNDP does not have much to offer us as we plot and scheme a strategy for the 21st century. what do you folks think? Barry continued: > IMO this gives a good start to the Internet here but its success will > depend on the widest possible exposure being given to the real benefits, > such as links between schools here and schools abroad, use of the Net to > identify support organisations, use of the Net to identify and buy goods > and services etc., and NOT access to 'fun' sites and the like which may > cause the Imams to object i hope Barry that this again would not be another case of development agencies telling us what's good for us. in as much as very few people in The Gambia are Internet-savvy, it think all should be allowed to enjoy the full spectrum of the benefits and drawbacks of the network. in the end, Gambians should decide what they want to do with their online time, rather than some bureacrat in Geneva. again, this points out one of the major drawbacks of having some of these development agencies as partners. > We at the GTMI will be giving 'walk in' demonstrations of the Internet, > probably on Saturday mornings, to show members of the general public > what it is and what is there. > are there any plans to have Internet-enabled stations at the National Library? i agree, it's important to get the public informed and educated about the Internet, but i also think that this should go hand in hand with attempts to democratize access. i don't think it helps much to whet peoples apetites, and leave them to drool! i'm going to stop here for now, until i hear what you folks think. but i think we have 2 important threads to follow here: first, the whole issue of developing our information infrastructure, and second, articulating criteria for picking partners in our development efforts. have a great weekend! Katim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:41:47 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Telecommunications in Africa Message-ID: <342A31DB.3F4D4526@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katim S. Touray wrote: > the first thing i said when i read it was 'here we go again!' while i > welcome any efforts at increasing and improving Internet connectivity > in The Gambia, i'm not sure i would have any of the UN and other > International development agencies hold us by the hand. i mean, we've > put our eggs in their baskets for 30 years and what do we have to show > for it. as far as i'm concerned, all these development agencies come > with a frame of mind that belongs to the past, not the future. even > though one can argue that despite the mistakes made, they all mean us > well, i would hasten to add that as the saying goes: 'the road to hell > is paved with good intentions' my feeling is that UNDP does not have > much to offer us as we plot and scheme a strategy for the 21st > century. what do you folks think? What would be your alternative to UNDP's assistance? I know AT&T has conducted some research in the feasibility of assisting Gambia's internet connectivity but unfortunately they are in the business of making money and not giving handouts, with or without stipulations. The profitability of these types of ventures in countries like The Gambia are not as apparent as in countries with bigger economies and perhaps this is why we have little choice but to accept the "little" that development agencies like UNDP can offer. > i hope Barry that this again would not be another case of development > agencies telling us what's good for us. in as much as very few people > in The Gambia are Internet-savvy, it think all should be allowed to > enjoy the full spectrum of the benefits and drawbacks of the network. > in the end, Gambians should decide what they want to do with their > online time, rather than some bureacrat in Geneva. again, this points > out one of the major drawbacks of having some of these development > agencies as partners. I agree with you here although we should note that when Barry says, > IMO this gives a good start to the Internet here but its success will > depend on the widest possible exposure being given to the real > benefits, such as links between schools here and schools abroad, use > of the Net to identify support organisations, use of the Net to > identify and buy goods and services etc., and NOT access to 'fun' > sites and the like which may cause the Imams to object. this is his opinion and not necessarily that of UNDP. When development agencies embark on such bilateral projects they do so under specific mandates, in this case "human development" or "capacity-building". I suppose this where the bureaucratic stipulations that you are against come into play. In this particular case, however, I think UNDP is playing more of a hands-off role. They are assisting by funding the project with $600,000 in addition to the $500,000 being pledged by the Gambia Government. It should be noted though that the project will be managed by Gamtel and the Department of State for Works, Communication and Information. The next question might be whether these two institutions have what it takes to make the project a successful one. I think they do. > i think we have 2 important threads to follow here: first, the whole > issue of developing our information infrastructure, and second, > articulating criteria for picking partners in our development efforts. In the area of picking our partners in our development efforts, I'm afraid we have little choice given our economic predicament. If we had the markets that exist in some of the bigger Third World nations then perhaps we would. Indeed, in the case of developing our information infrastructure, we would be able to pick among the best private firms in the world. They would be knocking at our doors as they have in Asia, South America and even Southern Africa. The best bet would be for us to move along cautiously as we seem to be doing here with UNDP. Gamtel has a pretty decent track record when it comes to picking partners like Alcatel in France. In their case, funding came from the French development agencies with the stipulation of working with french firms. It is when we do not have the financial resources available that our choices are limited and as the saying goes: Beggars can't be choosers. Peace. Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:49:25 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy Message-ID: <342A33A5.A2ED4653@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MOMODOU BUHARRY GASSAMA wrote: > Just out of curiosity (because I am a continent away from America), > what are you going to protest against? Perhaps MBAYE B. SARR should send a text version of the PRESSREL.DOC he sent in the original message which contains all the information. Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:21:17 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Monogamy -Reply (fwd) Message-ID: <342A492D.F3AF9F@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been watching this tread from its inception with Amy's posting and have hesitated joining but speech is free so here it goes! I think, to start off, as LatJor alluded to earlier we need to note the difference between monogamous and non monogamous relationships in general and the marital types of monogamy and polygamy. When the phrase "Monogamy is boring" was mentioned, to which did it apply? I think there is a world of difference because if it applies to the second, then the implication that surely follows is that this makes or might make the case for polygamy. I don't believe it does nor do I believe it, that is boredom, is the reason why there are so many polygamist husbands. On the other hand when it comes to relationships in general, be it with married or unmarried couples, boredom may explain why so many men "cheat" or are promiscuous, but only to a certain extent. Ancha might be on the right track when she says: > As I said earlier on, I think women feel more honour bound to try and > make a relationship work. I think they also know that it isn't easy > and hence don't quit as easily as men do (in general, since there're > always exceptions) ie they don't try to find comfort elsewhere when > things don't work out the way they expected or wanted them to. I do believe, however, that it is more than that. If it is simply a case of becoming promiscuous when the relationship isn't working then wouldn't there be a tendency to break-up before going elsewhere? I am speaking (or typing ;-) ) in case of unmarried couples here. I think boredom has less to do with this than culture and society. > Another thing is that when women decide to play the field, they are > called sluts ( excuse the language) etc. while men are considered > studs. > Societies' different view points of both sexes under the same > circumstances, has made sure that there are less women that will be > promiscuous than men overall. This is closer to the point. I mentioned culture because I believe we live in one, almost globally now, where there seems to be a desire to "enjoy" as much as possible. As Ancha said, society dictates that men have less to lose by "playing the field" and this is probably why we tend to be more promiscuous. I'm sure if women did not have as much to lose socially then the gap in levels of promiscuity between the two sexes would be smaller. Indeed, in Western societies we see more and more that this is the case. Shouldn't monogamous relationships bring about sufficient enjoyment? It should but unfortunately it doesn't always. Why? Someone else will have to answer that one. Happiness on the other hand is a different question. > I think women also would like to find happiness. I don't see how one > can be happy with many partners cause who'll be there for you and with > you at the end of the road??? or when the hard times come??? Your > family of course but what if they can't be there??? A real partner is > one that can be there for and with you through the good and bad times. Well first of all this is where, generally speaking of course, there is a difference in attitudes between men and women. I think women tend to be more satisfied emotionally or sexually (or whatever the appropriate term is here) with one partner than is the case with men, or at least those who tend to be promiscuous. I think most men, like women, only have true happiness with one partner (or in the case with polygamy, their legitimate partners) and this probably explains why we try with such vigour to avoid getting caught "playing the field" (those of us who do) lest we risk losing the one "who'll be there". Of course we must also realize that many of us, both men and women (but more men than women for reason already mentioned) also "play the field" to find that "one". Going back to the issue of boredom, in societies where polygamy (that is in marriages) are accepted, the roots in the promiscuity of husbands are the same but I believe there are many other more complex factors that actually lead to these husbands marrying again. These can range from the traditional to the contemporary but I don't think boredom factors much. I should say, since I'm not much of a sociologist or anthropologist, that I mention all this from personal experiences and observations but all the same I would love to read your reactions and thoughts. Peace. Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:34:38 -0400 From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <C69DB1B2BFFBCF11B5D300000000000152DD21@Cry1.prc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > SArian, > I don't remember Mam Cham but my sisters do. Going home yesterday, I kept thinking that Mam Cham could not have been one of the settlers of Half Die since the make-up of that quarter was/is one where Wollof Gourmets and Wollof Serigns were blood relatives and the kinds of sentiments Mam Cham had against your family seemed out of character for a typical HALF-DIE IAN. I am sorry that that kind of abuse took place. Of course, your grandmother was not one to take rubbish from anyone as I remember and I hope she did not. It has to be said though that Gambia enjoys a peaceful co-existence of religions inspite of the Mam Chams and the recent Ahmaddiya debacle. Ya Soffie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 8:55:09 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <TFSHBIYS@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Barry, I have again checked with the legal department because I am not a lawyer =20 =2E I was told that if the words are changed or summarized it is OK as long= =20 as you reveal the source=2E Secondly on the financial gains they claim that it is primary in =20 determining if any violation of copyrights stands=2E (according to them if=20= =20 there is no direct or indirect monetary gain then again it is ok BUT I =20 will seek a second opinion=2E Question to you Barry Since you know and remind us of this possible violation all the time, =20 What in your opinion is the solution?? If you are sincerely part of this =20 diverse group seeking information about home it is your obligation to =20 help us not hinder us =2E Please find answers!! And thanks peace Habib -----Original Message----- From: barry=2Emahon@ci=2Erech=2Elu Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 12:27 PM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: Re: Copyright issues =2E=2E=2E --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- hghanim@nusacc=2Eorg wrote: > > Dr Katim > I respectfully disagree with the threat to the existence of the forum > because we are NOT getting any monetary compensation when we email it =20 or > forward it to our friends=2E If I am wrong I stand corrected=2E=2E=2E=2E Sorry to correct you - but the issue of money is secondary to the permission to use=2E You must have permission from the copyright owner to re-distribute their material=2E Whether or not you re-distribute for money is matter between you and the copyright owner=2E Distributing without reward does NOT confer on you any rights=2E "Changing a few words" is a debatable matter=2E As I have said reporting that 'Reuters reports=2E=2E=2E' is permissible, within limits=2E However, I know of cases where Reuters and others have successfully prosecuted for what they and the courts considered was 'excessive' reference to copyright material=2E P=2ES=2E I would say there is a risk to the list or at least to the continued membership for some people if direct re-distribution continues=2E Bye, Barry ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 06:03:49 PDT From: TRODDING THRU CREATION INNA IRIE MEDITATION <ABARROW@rr5.rr.intel.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re:Developments on the Ahmadiyya impasse Message-ID: <9709251303.utk8419@RR5.intel.com> Is Gambia turning to Tyranny...where in Secretaries of States can lock people up anytime they want...? I hope that would never happen, for that is a degradation of our people and human race as a whole.....! Pa-Abdou <<<<"You are talking to a Secretary of State, somebody who can lock you up antytime...even today, before you leave here. So don't thjreaten your situation. You don't have to be rude. You are too young to be destroyed.">>>. In another article in the same issue of The Point, Emuran Saidy reported that Mr. Karamo Bojang, the acting Principal of Nusrat, an Ahmadiyya school, told his students that the school will continue to operate. According to Saidy, he also said that while the principals of Tahir and Nasir Senior Secondary Schools had all left, "he was assigned by the new Amir Baba Trawally to go and ask the teachers (staffs) to go on with their job and enroll new students." Based on what I have read in other issues of the Observer, I have gathered that these events have caused some to openly question the virtues of having a Secretary of State for Religious Affairs, and accordingly, some have also defended the state position in their letters to the editor. Our disscusions on this issue here in Gambia-L seem to mirror those back home. Peace Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:29:09 -0400 From: Ceesay Soffie <Ceesay_Soffie@ems.prc.com> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy Message-ID: <C69DB1B2BFFBCF11B5D300000000000152DD22@Cry1.prc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Hi! > Just out of curiosity (because I am a continent away from America), > what are you going to protest against? > Buharry. These are some of what are being protested against. > "A SOLDIER WITHOUT POLITICAL EDUCATION IS A VIRTUAL CRIMINAL" > > > > WHAT: PROTEST AGAINST TORTURE AND REPRESSION BY THE GAMBIA'S MILITARY > REGIME > > WHEN: SEPTEMBER 25th 1997 > > TIME: 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM > > WHERE: EMBASSY OF THE GAMBIA > 1155 15th STREET, NW > WASHINGTON, DC > > Jali Baa - Public Opinion Organ for Sene Gambia and the coalition of > Gambians united against torture and repression will hold a protest > against the Gambian Military regimes' use of torture to silence > criticism. The protest will take place on Thursday, September 25th, > 1997 from 12pm to 2pm in front of the Embassy of The Gambia, 1155 15th > Street, NW, Washington, DC. > > We are calling on all Gambians and Africans despite our party > affiliations to take a position and vigorously denounce the barbaric > behavior of the Gambian National Intelligence Agency (NIA) and the > military wing of the regime. > > Subsequent to the Armed Forces Provisional Ruling Council's (AFPRC's) > precarious ascension to power, repression and torture have become the > order of the day in the Gambia. Even under the "civilianized > military" regime -- APRC - Yaya Jammeh and his cronies continue to > exercise the same militaristic thuggish behavior unprecedented in > Gambian history. > The AFPRC's (now APRC) earlier rhetoric of "peoples power", > accountability, transparency and probity has evaporated into a myth. > They have virtually engaged in all the corrupt practices they > championed as reasons for the ouster of the Jawara regime and damn > anyone who questions these irregularities. The AFPRC has gotten the > country into the abyss of the most adventurous and chaotic economic > programs, the ill effects of which far outweigh those of the Jawara > regime. > > In June 1995, almost a year after the coup, the Gambian people were > devastated by the most gruesome and heinous murder of Koro Ceesay, the > former Minister of Finance. He was found burnt to death in his car, > until this day, no investigation was carried out on the allegations > that Edward Singateh, Peter Singateh, and Yankuba Touray, all military > officers, had knowledge of how Koro died. In the same year, captain > Sadibu Hydara was disarmed, arrested, and detained - he died > mysteriously in prison of high blood pressure. No such medical > history was ever established. The AFPRC stays with the death squad > formation that killed these people to this day. > > The token judicial system, headed by "mercenary judges" from Sierra > Leone, Nigeria and Ghana, operates according to the whims of Yaya > Jammeh - the "Law according to Yaya." > > The most recent barbaric exercise of the civilianized AFPRC happened > in June 1997 when 5 members of the United Democratic Party (UDP), > including sister Sarjo Kunjang Sanneh, were arrested and brutally > tortured for simply holding a meeting. > > Like all other military regimes in Africa, the AFPRC has become an > added nightmare in the impoverished lives of Gambians. Scandals of > $27M in Swiss bank accounts and homegrown corruption within the three > years of AFPRC kleptocracy clearly characterize their hidden agenda > > WE DEMAND: > > 1. Immediate disbanding of the National Intelligence Agency (NIA) > 2. Immediate investigation into the deaths of Koro Ceesay and > Sadibu Hydara > 3. ABOLISHMENT of the Death Penalty > 4. Immediate investigation, by an independent body, into the > torture of the 5 UDP members > 5. Return the stolen resources - $27M - to the people > > > > WE APPEAL: > > 1. To civilians in office to resign from this thuggish government > to save what's left of our beloved country > 2. To the soldiers who have any humanity left to resign and refuse > orders to torture their own brothers and sisters > 3. To all Gambian lawyers to take a stand against these human > rights abuses by the regime. > > > FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, CONTACT:- > > OUSMAN J. BOJANG 301/445-0665 > MBAYE B. SARR 301/445-2850 > OUSAINOU MBENGA 202/328-8049 > SOFFIE B. CEESAY 301/445-2850 > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:06:41 +0200 From: "Kaira Isatou Boubacar" <kaiisa@hs.nki.no> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... (fwd) Message-ID: <342A7E01.1D3C@hs.nki.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ancha Bala-Gaye u wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Tamsir Mbai wrote: > > > If you ask me, I will share whatever information I deem relevant to > > The Gambia with other members of this list, but that DOESN'T make it legal. > > So spare Barry the whiplash. He doesn't deserve it, and quite frankly, I > > think several of us owe him an apology. When we crave so much for democracy > > and the freedom of self expression, why shouldn't Barry be given a chance to > > have an opposing view? > > I couldn't agree more Tamsir. I think that Barry was worried about the > list or at least some members of it getting into trouble and that's why > he brought up the subject. Just cause some people are annoyed by it or > don't want to hear it, doesn't mean that the subject shouldn't be brought > up and even harped on, if it means getting the message across and having > people adhere to the warnings. > Ancha. > > > I could not have said it better! And he doesn't deserve to be called a 'moron'. People have said repeatedly on this list to stop the name calling but I guess that's how the we humans are: we never learn. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:11:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "D. Proctor" <proctord@u.washington.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Lists and their evolution... (fwd) Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95b.970925093408.93602A-100000@homer05.u.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is not original material, but I submit it as something that may help us all to understand the broad band of users, their needs, and their understanding of how the net and list servs run... use the delete key freely! Every list seems to go through the same cycle: 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies). 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up) 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone---newbie and expert alike--- feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions) 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if other people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed) 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list) OR 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after) Debbie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:11:03 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: New Member Message-ID: <19970925191210.AAA45596@LOCALNAME> Momodou Jagne has been added to the list. Welcome to Gambia-l Mr. Jagne. Please send a brief introduction to: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Regards Momodou Camara On 24 Sep 97 at 22:17, YAYA S. SISAY wrote: > Wassup Momodou. I have a Gambian uncle that want to be a member of > Gambia-l. His name is Momodou Jagne. His email address is > JagneM@wabash. edu. I'll really appreciate if you sign him in. thank > you. Peace! Yaya! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:45:53 -0400 (EDT) From: MJagana@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Thanks! Message-ID: <970925154346_-296076517@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-09-22 17:28:56 EDT, you write: << (The Gambia's most livable city--according to a poll of 1,000 Gunjurians). :) >> I must agree although i went to Gunjur, only as a scout out for camping. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:53:04 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Cc: ASJanneh@aol.com Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <19970925195411.AAA27958@LOCALNAME> On 25 Sep 97 at 2:32, ASJanneh@aol.com wrote: > Gambia-l: > > Ordinarily, I would have continued distributing relevant news pieces > to Gambia-l ESPECIALLY because of Barry's admonition or outcry. But > our relationship with the University of Washington and Tony Loum's > position are far more important than any benefits to be derived from > doing that. Thats right, the list is too important to take the risk of being shut down and I agree that Tony's position is also far more important. We should therefore stop sending copyright material to the list with immideate effect. > > That said, I plan to devise ways of getting news items to all > interested parties through means other than Gambia-l. The risks > will be mine, of course. Perhaps Momodou Camara can assist me in > this regard. Sources of all news items will continue to be > indicated, as we have always done. Amadou, I will forward news articles concerning The Gambia to you and I will add any other interested person to my mailing list too. Momodou Camara BTW: You can read one of Barry's articles on the issue of copy right written in 1992 titled: The European Union and Electronic Databases: A Lesson in Interference? by Barry Mahon at: http://www.asis.org/Bulletin/Jun-95/intnat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:59:51 PDT From: "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: subscribtion of a friend (professor) Message-ID: <19970925195951.5649.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain A. SCRATTRED JANNEH OR L. DOWNES, I CAN'T REMEMBER who it is again that is responsible for subscribing people to this list. my apologies. anyway, i am hereby writing to request information on the subscription process. i know that the would-be subscriber has to write to Gambia-l owner, but i can't remember much else. Please send me information on this so i can direct other interested individuals myself without having to ask for it every time.i will keep it filed. you may also, if you wish, send the info directly to Dr. Robinson @ BRobinson@gwmail.kysu.edu He has expressed his interest in the Gambia and Senegal to me numerous times, and i felt the list would be an excellent way for him to interact with us (untill he makes his visit). He is the Chairperson of the Social-Work and Criminal Justice Dept. of my school. I am a Criminal Justice Major and i also do my work-study with his office. Gratuities in advance..... n j a g a. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:19:51 -0400 (EDT) From: MJagana@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Demonstration at the Gambian Embassy Message-ID: <970925161710_-1833093586@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-09-25 00:48:28 EDT, you write: << There will be a demonstration at the Gambian embassy tomorrow from 12 noon to 2pm. >> WHAT IS ABOUT ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:50:21 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com>, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: subscribtion of a friend (professor) Message-ID: <19970925205129.AAA20144@LOCALNAME> On 25 Sep 97 at 12:59, NJAGA JAGNE wrote: i know that the would-be subscriber has > to write to Gambia-l owner, but i can't remember much > else. Please send me information on this so i can direct > other interested individuals myself without having to ask > for it every time.i will keep it filed. Mr. Jagne, You can tell your friends to send their subscription requests to: listproc@u.washington.edu The subject should be left blank and in the message area he/she should just write : subscribe Gambia-L <Name Surname> thats all! Momodou Camara PS. Your friend has been add to the list, please inform him that it is a custom here that new members send a brief introduction of them selves. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:12:34 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: Gambia-L <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Gambia in the News (25 Sept) Message-ID: <342AD3C1.9AA7675D@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Development of the River Gambia ******************************* A one day summit was held today in Dakar by the Organisation for the Development of the River Gambia. The Presidents of countries who are grouped in the organisation, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea Bissau and Senegal, discussed plans for integrating their economies that includes developing common power, agriculture and transport infrastructure. According to the news agency Reuters, President Abdou Diouf of Senegal said in the summit that "Integration is vital to developing our economies and gaining access to bigger markets". While no time frame or details were given, the immediate development programmes he outlined were the construction of four hydro-electric dams and inter-connection of the power grids of the member states, a stock-farm project which could be financed by the African Development Bank ant the building of a road bridge over the River Gambia. (Source: Reuters) Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:00:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> To: "A. Loum" <tloum@u.washington.edu> Cc: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970925234418.12515A-100000@acc5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: I endorse the emerging consensus on the copyright issue. We should cease sending these postings to gambia-l 'as is' from their sources. However, we do need to develop a strategy to circumvent this little problem that makes some folks nervous. Judging from the comments, we all by and large still want to get news about Gambia and Africa from whatever source it comes from. Momodou Camara is actually pointing to the way out of this debacle. We could still share this information without snooping eyes seeing what we are doing. Momodou's intentions to continue to send news postings to private individuals (like Amadou), could be replicated en mass 30 of us could volunteer to redistribute these postings to between 7 - 10 list members. Of course these need to be centralized first (to a Manager, or a voluteer, say) who in turn sends them to these 30 volunteers, who then send the postings to their designted 7 - 10 list members. This way nothing comes to gambia-l but to individual members of gambia-l! The need to know what is going on in our beloved country as well as our dear mother Africa is the major source of inspiration for these guerilla tactics. Of course we could also find out from these News Outlets if we could forward their wires to our list. Personally I doubt if they'll say 'yes', but it's worth a try. LatJor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:07:24 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <01BCCA53.43262180@ddbk.qatar.net.qa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCA53.4336EA60" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCA53.4336EA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The need to know what is going on in our beloved country as well as our dear mother Africa is the major source of inspiration for these guerilla tactics. Its funny knowing that the struggle is not over until its over! These = TACTICS have worked to devastating effect in the = past(Namibia,Zimbabwe,South africa,Guinea Bissau .....) and I am sure = they will work again in 1997 and beyond.So,back to the BUSH,Guys! And = the struggle continues! And keep the good work down there! Regards Basss!=20 -----Original Message----- From: Gabriel Ndow [SMTP:gndow@spelman.edu] Sent: 24 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 07:00 O To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:29:27 -0500 From: Francis Njie <c3p0@xsite.net> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: fyi (Government theft & popular apathy) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970926002927.00756340@xsite.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jagana wrote... >> Is it not time for AFRICAN LEADERS TO WAKE UP AND STOP LAUNDERING OUR >> NATIONAL WEALTH. While this is true, I think it's truer that unless educated sub-Saharan Africans (especially those abroad, for obvious reasons) outside the ruling class make some substantive effort to reclaim and secure their countries' wealth, we'll continue being raped. I had the audacity during my early days on gambia-l (probably out of euphoria over discovering the largest single audience of educated Gambians and friends of the Gambia abroad... ever!) to suggest that we try to raise a UN petition aimed at discouraging such outright theft. I don't remember getting a single response. While, in all probability, sub-Saharan Africa will be "slumming it" in the global economy well into the 21st century, our position at the bottom of the food chain is probably guaranteed for even longer if we sit back and hope our prayers will conjure up benevolent rulers... - Francis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 01:46:37 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Gambia in the News (25 Sept) Message-ID: <342B4C3D.6C72EF2B@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Latir Downes-Thomas wrote: > A one day summit was held today in Dakar by the Organisation for the > Development of the River Gambia. The Presidents of countries who are > grouped in the organisation, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea Bissau and > Senegal, discussed plans for integrating their economies that includes > developing common power, agriculture and transport infrastructure. > > According to the news agency Reuters, President Abdou Diouf of Senegal > said in the summit that "Integration is vital to developing our > economies and gaining access to bigger markets". PANA has also reported on the summit in Dakar. You can read their report at: http://www.africanews.org/PANA/news/19970925/feat8.html According to PANA, the organisation, Gambia River Development Authority (OMVG), began the summit in the hope of injecting new life into the body and speeding up development. OMVG's first project, scheduled to begin this year, is a 16 billion CFA francs (32 million U.S. dollars) initiative to develop the agroforestry and the pastoral sectors. In addition, PANA also reports that officials at the summit said a recently completed market survey resulted in 20 sites being "selected for the construction of four hydroelectric dams by the year 2015," with locations in Gambia, Guinea and Guinea-Bissau. According to PANA, President Abdou Diouf of Senegal also said, "In today's world, in which Africa is marginalized, these countries would have to meet their needs for food security, industrial development and increased income for their peoples." (Source PANA) Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:06:27 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <01BCCA5B.AC77D360@ddbk.qatar.net.qa> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCA5B.AC889C40" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCA5B.AC889C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That said, I plan to devise ways of getting news items to all interested parties through means other than Gambia-l. The risks will be mine, of course. Perhaps Momodou Camara can assist me in this regard. Sources = of all news items will continue to be indicated, as we have always done. Doc! Please,register my private Email address as the first subscriber to = the Bush List. On a much more serious issue,even though I don't to be part of the = impending war between the twin cities of kartong and gunjurr,because my = CITY,Sukuru Kunda, is thousands of miles away,I want to inform all of = you out there gloating about the "livability"of your cities that from = now on,all of you guys will have to get yourselves Trasnsit Visas = inorder to pass through our Unique CITY to go to Banjul.An expert on the = status of Sere Kunda (Sukuru Kunda) has just told me that it is = mentioned somewhere in the Gambian Constituition,,just like it is done = about Quebec in the Canadian constituition,that we can take our = Independence anytime we wish to do so without risking any civil war = whatsoever.So,make sure all of you Gunjurians and Kartongkoos stop = starting something you cannot finish! Regards Basss!=20 (His Excellency, The Supreme Alkaloo Of Sukuru Kundaa) -----Original Message----- From: ASJanneh@aol.com [SMTP:ASJanneh@aol.com] Sent: 23 IaCIi CaCeai, 1418 09:33 O To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List Subject: Re: Copyright issues ... Gambia-l: Ordinarily, I would have continued distributing relevant news pieces to Gambia-l ESPECIALLY because of Barry's admonition or outcry. But our relationship with the University of Washington and Tony Loum's position = are far more important than any benefits to be derived from doing that. = It's time for Barry to pat himself on the back for raising the issue and = educating some of us on the implications, and then move on. =20 For many, the frustration comes from Barry's tampering with the List's = "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy (borrowing from an earlier contributor & the = Clinton Administration) and his persistence on the copyright matter. Whatever = the case, we should cease the practice and not get bogged down to Barry and = the copyright issue any further (my opinion). Consideration must be given = to Tony's concerns. That said, I plan to devise ways of getting news items to all interested parties through means other than Gambia-l. The risks will be mine, of course. Perhaps Momodou Camara can assist me in this regard. Sources = of all news items will continue to be indicated, as we have always done. Ala baraka! Amadou Scattred Janneh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:45:01 +0000 From: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> To: dekat@itis.com Cc: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Telecommunications in Africa Message-ID: <342A40AD.730F@ci.rech.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katim S. Touray wrote: > > Hi folks, > the first thing i said when i read it was 'here we go again!' .... > ....my feeling is that UNDP does not have much to offer us as we plot and > scheme a strategy for the 21st century. what do you folks think? I would have to agree in principle. One of the things that never ceases to amaze me here is that the people accept that the UN agencies, one and all, are treated as 'Diplomats' - they have (big 4 wheel drive) vehicles and tax free status. The UN is paid for by you the taxpayers, what is the justification for using this money for vehicles and big compounds etc.? Of course they might need some of these things for up-country stuff but not here in the Kombos. However, I would doubt that the money for introducing the Internet would/could be raised locally. In fact I would say that it should not - there are other priorities. Of course you might say that the Internet is not a high priority compared to health & education but, as the Minister said in response to exactly that sentiment expressed at the meeting - " We appreciate that view but we feel that the Internet can make a positive contribution in exactly those areas" Given that the money comes for outside, the effort should be put to spending it wisely. Unfortunately the UNDP is, like all the others, heavily bureaucratised, you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get the money. Here at GTMI I have been trying to get some sessions organised on 'who wants to apply for what' - but there is reluctance - probably because some people want an 'inside track' to the money. > > > i hope Barry that this again would not be another case of development > agencies telling us what's good for us. My point here was partly joking - there is a widely publicised (media opinion) that the Net is all about pornography and hacking.... we need to be sure that the effort is not diverted....Of course people will do what they want, that's the 'ethos' of the Net. > are there any plans to have Internet-enabled stations at the National > Library? i agree, it's important to get the public informed and educated > about the Internet, but i also think that this should go hand in hand with > attempts to democratize access. i don't think it helps much to whet > peoples apetites, and leave them to drool! Agreed, I know nothing of the plans of the National Library. The Librarian was trained in UK but even then they may not have covered Internet subjects. However, we will be announcing our walk-ins in the papers and also contacting people like the NL if they wish to have introductory courses. The real issue, as usual, is money. There is no free lunch here, even though UNDP will subsidise the usage, it will not be free. In fact I would be opposed to creating any idea that it is. However, this means that agencies like the NL and GTTI (where they already had a one month trial using the existing Gamtel access), and others need to find budget to pay for their use. Same goes for the 'general public' > The other problem may be that 'the nerds' take over - i.e. the techies, who tend to confuse people with their jargon and show off their technical whiz. There was some evidence of that at the meeting. Bye, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 03:26:50 PDT From: TRODDING THRU CREATION INNA IRIE MEDITATION <ABARROW@rr5.rr.intel.com> To: gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu Subject: WORDS COULD BE DISTORTED AS SOCIETY EVOLVES.... Message-ID: <9709261026.utk22200@RR5.intel.com> Some of us might find it necessary to support this course....! Pa-Abdou Barrow From: RR5::JWIMBUSH "JASON PG#8715 "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"" 26-SEP-1997 01:24:27.60 To: JBSMITH, ABARROW CC: JWIMBUSH Subj: read this!!!! >> >>The following article is quite thought provoking and I'm sure many of you >>will >>have >>an opinion about this. You can see mine at the end of this e-mail. If >>anyone >>wants >>to share their opinions . . . of course . . . the e-mail lines are open!!! >> >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >>> Taken from Emerge Magazine September 1997 >>> ******************************************************** >>> >>> "Anyone can be a **, A >>> ** is any ignorant person," >>> Kathryn Williams, curator >>> at the Museum of African >>> American History in Flint, Mich, >>> always explained. >>> >>> So, when a young boy asked recently, >>> "Am I a ** because I'm Black ? >>> she said, "No child, go look up the >>> word in the dictionary." >>> >>> When the boy returned, he read >>> with disappoiment, "1: a black person >>> 2: ...member of any dark-skinned race." >>> >>> Williams was apalled. She hopes to >>> gather enough support from NAACP >>> chapters and Black media to demand >>> a revision. She asks that letters >>> be sent to the: >>> >>> Language Research Service >>> Merriam-Webster Inc. >>> Box 281 >>> Springfield, MA 01102 or >>> call (413) 734-3134 >>> >>> --------- >>The following is a letter that one reader sent to the Editor in Chief >>with regards to the definition in Emerge magazine followed by his >>response. >> >>> > Dear Sir: >>> > >>> > I am writing in regards to the September 1997 article in "Emerge >>> >Magazine" entitled, Defintion Petition. It concerns the definition of >>> > the word ** in the 1996 version of the Merriam-Webster's >>> > Collegiate Dictionary. It seems that the secondary definition now >>> > includes a reference to "dark-skinned" people, and the third to a >>> > socially disadvantage class of persons. I feel this >>> > to be inappropriate and strongly suggest that you consider the >>> > implications of propagating racial slander. I whole heartiedly >>> > support Ms. Kathryn William's position, and respectiful request >>> > a revision. Thank you kindly for your attention to this letter. >> >> >>> Subject: THIS IS THEIR RESPONSE >>> >>> Your comments concerning the entry for "**" in our Collegiate >>> Dictionary would normally be answered by our editor in chief, >>> Frederick C. Mish. Unfortunately Mr. Mish is currently at home >>> recuperating from a recent accident and does not have access to his >>> e-mail. He has, however, prepared a response to the many questions and >>> comments we've been receiving on this subject since the dictionary >>> entry was mentioned in "Emerge," and I'm happy to send >>> along a copy of that response. >>> >>> Stephen Perrault >>> Senior Editor >>> Merriam-Webster, Incorporated >>> >>> We hope you will forgive us for making this response less individual >>> and more formulaic than our usual correspondence. The volume of mail >>> generated by the brief piece in "Emerge" has forced us to take a >>> general approach. >>> >>> The first point we want to make is that the entry for "**" in >>> Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, contains a >>> very important part, a usage paragraph, that the magazine did not >>> show you: >>> >>> usage "**" in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such >>> writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, >>> but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial >>> slur in English. Its use by and among Blacks is not always intended >>> or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word >>> expressive of racial hatred and bigotry. >>> >>> We believe that this constitutes a strong, clear statement about the >>> actual status of this word in usage today. >>> >>> Please bear in mind as you consider these definitions of "**" >>> that we are defining the meanings of a word, not describing groups of >>> people. The difference is of crucial importance. We are not saying >>> that if one is a member of a dark-skinned race one should consider >>> oneself a **. Such an attitude is totally abhorrent to us! We >>> are saying that some people (sick or misguided people, in all >>> likelihood) currently use the word "**" and others (like Joseph >>> Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, mentioned in the usage >>> paragraph above, whose writings reflect many of the attitudes of >>> their time) have used it in the past and when the word is used by >>> such people it generally refers to either a black person or a member >>> of some other dark-skinned people. >>> >>> We have often been told by correspondents that at some time "**" >>> meant an ignorant or shiftless person of any race. We have no >>> evidence in our files of citations (a citation being simply an >>> example of an English word in context) that "**" is used with >>> such a meaning. If you have actual evidence of this, especially in >>> print, we would be very glad to have you pass it along. Please >>> remember that a dictionary cannot assign meanings to words; it can >>> only record the meanings that people actually use. >>> >>> We do not believe that we would be doing anything positive about >>> racism by removing the entries for "**" and other offensive words >>> from the dictionary. We cannot make offensive words pass out of >>> existence by leaving them out of the dictionary; we can merely damage >>> the integrity of the dictionary. People do not learn these words from >>> the dictionary, nor do they refrain from using the words until they >>> have checked a dictionary to see whether the words are entered. The >>> dictionary really has little to do with the use of these words except >>> to record it and to tell the truth about its offensiveness. >>> >>> I think too that I should point out that all reputable college-level >>> desk dictionaries published in this country now have entries for some >>> offensive words. Including such entries is not an aberration on our >>> part but is typical of mainstream lexicography in our time. >>> >>> I hope I have persuaded you that we are behaving responsibly as >>> dictionary makers in our handling of words like "**," and I thank >>> you for giving me the opportunity to explain. >>> >>> Sincerely yours, >>> >>> Frederick C. Mish >>> Vice President and Editor in Chief >> >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >>My comment: Can we really be surprised that this definition is still present. >>I'm sure we are all guilty of using this word in one way or another when we >>refer to each other. At the rate and the way in which we use it, it appears >> >>that the next definition for this word will be . . . >> >> **: a friend or associate. ex. John is my **. >> >>Unfortunately, we as a people have continued to keep this word alive!! >>And although I truly believe that anyone can be one, a picture of what >>kind of person comes to mind when you hear this word? How can we >>really except others to stop when we can't stop ourselves!!! >> >>Jerry >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:49:31 PDT From: "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <19970926144931.2388.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain LAT JOR WROTE:::....... >Greetings: >I endorse the emerging consensus on the copyright issue. We >should cease sending these postings to gambia-l 'as is' from >their sources. However, we do need to develop a strategy to >circumvent this little problem that makes some folks nervous. >Judging from the comments, we all by and large still want to >get news about Gambia and Africa from whatever source it >comes from................ .......... >if they'll say 'yes', but it's worth a try. > >LatJor > RIGHT ON LATJOR... THIS ISSUE IS GETTING ATTENTION. We do need to get other ways of distributing news from home without getting in trouble for it. YOUR SUGGESTIONS ARE EXCELLENT.... N j a g a.... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:16:30 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: jagnen25@hotmail.com, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <TFSIXPNY@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I agree with the excellent suggestion Habib -----Original Message----- From: jagnen25@hotmail=2Ecom Sent: Friday, September 26, 1997 10:55 AM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: RE: Copyright issues =2E=2E=2E --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- LAT JOR WROTE:::=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E =20 >Greetings: >I endorse the emerging consensus on the copyright issue=2E We >should cease sending these postings to gambia-l 'as is' from >their sources=2E However, we do need to develop a strategy to >circumvent this little problem that makes some folks nervous=2E >Judging from the comments, we all by and large still want to >get news about Gambia and Africa from whatever source it >comes from=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E >if they'll say 'yes', but it's worth a try=2E > >LatJor > RIGHT ON LATJOR=2E=2E=2E THIS ISSUE IS GETTING ATTENTION=2E We=20= do need to get other ways of distributing news from home without getting in trouble for it=2E YOUR SUGGESTIONS ARE EXCELLENT=2E=2E=2E=2E N j a g a=2E=2E=2E=2E ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www=2Ehotmail=2Ecom ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ************************************
Momodou	Posted - 01 Aug 2021 : 15:26:02 ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Received: from mrin78.mail.aol.com (mrin78.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.188]) by air02.mail.aol.com (V32) with SMTP; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:28:56 -0400 Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu (lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1]) by mrin78.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id RAA20304; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id OAA25287; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:17 -0700 Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA05740 for <gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:58 -0700 Received: from emin38.mail.aol.com (emout40.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.74]) by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with ESMTP id OAA00684 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:57 -0700 Received: by emin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA07163 for gambia-l@u.washington.edu; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <970922165224_1163772637@emout18.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Sender: GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Thanks! X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:49:40 -0400 (EDT) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <9709230449.AA43820@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jabou, you wrote: > Who is this moron, and why does he keep harping on this point? Once a news > release hits the papers, whether from Reuters or any other source, that paper > can be picked up and sent to anyone anywhere in the world. >How is this different and what is Barry's interest in this matter? Beats me... But here is an article that might be related to what Barry Mahon is trying very hard to convince us about. The article is from http://www.money.com/ Regards, Moe S. Jallow > --------------------------------------------------- > You better watch what you say in online discussion groups, or > prepare to defend yourself. > > by Michael Brush > > In a move that sent a chill down the backbone of the Internet, Web > surfers used to saying whatever they want -- damn the facts -- > were put on notice this week that at least one company is fed up > and not going to take it anymore. > > The company, Presstek, filed a defamation suit against three > investment discussion group posters, in essence alleging they > spread lies that cast the firm in a bad light. And judging by the > reaction of other firms to the action, more lawsuits are just > around the corner. Presstek says publicity about the suit sparked > calls from at least a half dozen other firms interested in filing > similar complaints. > > "I think it is important for people to understand that there are a > lot of people in American businesses who know exactly what is > going on on the Internet, and that they are not going to tolerate > unlawful conduct," says Robert McDaniel, the general counsel for > Presstek. > > McDaniel says he does not want to discourage open discussion of > his company on the Net. "That is an appropriate use of the > Internet. But you can influence a lot of people. And if you do so > improperly, I think that is a problem. What bothers me is the > destruction of shareholder value using inaccuracies and innuendo > as a tool." > > So where exactly does that leave Net-based investors who thrive on > the open exchange of ideas in the freewheeling discussion groups > found in the threads at sites like Silicon Investor and Motley > Fool? > > Do you have to fact-check every comment, or preface posts with > legal-sounding disclaimers as some participants in the Presstek > thread at Silicon Investor took to doing in the wake of the > lawsuit? Or does the protection of freedom of speech give you > carte blanche to say whatever you please? > > The answer lies somewhere in between. Fortunately, chat room > participants do have a long tradition of free speech on their > side, which gives them a lot of latitude when making comments > about companies. That, plus a little common sense, will get > participants through most discussions without getting sued. > > Lawyers warn, however, that messages posted on the Web appear > virtually everywhere in the world, so attention to U.S. law may > not always be enough. > > With that in mind, we put together an overview of what you can say > in investing chat groups, and still keep the lawyers -- the U.S. > lawyers, at least -- off your back. > > First, some definitions. Defamation is any comment that holds a > person or a company up to scorn, ridicule or contempt; injures > them or their business; or accuses them of a crime. Libel is the > written form of defamation, and slander is the spoken type. > > Here's a guide to what you can say about your favorite investment > or short position while reducing the risk of a defamation suit: > > * Truth Truth is the fireproof defense against defamation. You > are permitted to say anything that is true, regardless of how bad > it makes a company look. > > * Opinion Here again, the law gives you a lot of latitude to say > what's on your mind. "The Supreme Court has said that there is no > such thing as a false idea," explains Susan Buckley, a First > Amendment lawyer with the New York law firm of Cahill, Gordon & > Reindel. "You can only defame someone by utterance of a false > fact." So you can have an opinion, and it does not have to be > correct. But to be protected, your opinion has to be based on > facts, at least loosely. > > How loosely? This is where you get into a gray area, but again, > you have some wiggle room. "Generally, you can get off the hook > so long as the facts are correct," says Floyd Abrams, also a First > Amendment attorney with Cahill, Gordon & Reindel. "You have to > have some underlying fact that is related to your opinion. But you > get a lot of leeway." > > For example, a person who noticed that revenues declined > moderately for two quarters at a company and then said they think > it is going to go out of business soon, would probably be > protected, Abrams said. Often, though, to be protected you need to > state the facts at the same time you state the opinion. And if > you know your opinion is wrong at the time you state it, you will > lose in a lawsuit - if the complainant can prove that you knew > this, of course. > > * Predictions Likewise, forecasts are usually protected, because > it is impossible to say whether a prediction is true or false at > the time it is made. > > * Exaggeration You also enjoy an exemption for tall tales, known > as "rhetorical hyperbole." If you say "this is the worst company > in history," for example, you are protected, because it is > obviously an exaggeration, and a statement that can not be proven > right or wrong. > > * Public figures You also get extra protection when you say > negative things about a "public figure." To win a libel suit, a > public figure has the additional burden of proving that a > statement was made with malice, in addition to being defamatory > and false. "Malice" means the writer intended to injure, and > either acted with knowledge that the statement was false, or acted > with "reckless disregard" for whether the statement was true. So > you can make defamatory and untrue statements about a public > figure, but if they were not made with malice, you are off the > hook. A non-public figure only has to show that the statement was > defamatory and untrue. > > The tricky part here is that not all companies are considered > public figures. "The law looks at the degree to which the business > has become involved in public debate about matters of public > interest," says Abrams. All cigarette companies, for example, are > public figures. "But a company that makes a product that is not > inherently controversial may be a private figure." The more a > company tries to attract business by advertising, however, the > more likely it is to be a public figure. "But the law is still > developing," says Abrams. "It is still in a chaotic state on this > question." > > * Public forum And don't forget that a website is a public forum > -- not to be confused with more private forms of communication > like the telephone. This matters because it has an impact on the > amount of damages you can be sued for. When asking for money from > defendants, a company has to demonstrate how much damage was done. > It is easier to show that defamation in a public forum, as opposed > to a private conversation, harmed the company. > > * Wired world The issue of defamation on the Internet raises the > thorny question of where something is actually published when it > appears online. Courts, though, are quickly lining up on the side > that says if a statement or Website appears somewhere, it appears > everywhere. > > This means that writing comments on the Internet exposes you to > libel laws around the world. And that's a problem, because many > legal systems don't protect you as much as in the U.S. Take the > U.K., for example. "All the plaintiff must show is that he was > defamed," says Ed Mishkin, a lawyer for Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & > Hamilton in New York. "Then it is up to the defendant to show the > statement was true." In the U.S., the plaintiff has the challenge > of proving the statement false. What's more, in the U.K. there is > no higher test for public figures, like in the U.S. > > That explains, of course, why many lawyers chose to sue > international publications for libel in the U.K., rather than in > the U.S. And there is no reason to think it would be any different > when it comes to the Internet. > > --------------602E9DFADC7640F4DCA212D6-- > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:57:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: new members Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970923005346.7417E-100000@acc5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: The following have been added to our 'bantaba': Amadou Jallow, Lamin Marenah, Yai-Fatou Bala-Gaye, Batch Gaye, Sal Barry, Michael Gomez. Welcome and please send brief intros. to the group. Our address is: gambia-l@u.washington.edu LatJor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 03:13:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabriel Ndow <gndow@spelman.edu> To: "GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Alex Haley's ROOTS was a HOAX] Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970923031217.7583B-100000@acc5> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings: Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Dr. Clarke - glad to have one of his former students on our group - and Haley. As I stated earlier and here again, I apologize for the 'name-calling'. >(As an aside, it was actually Haley who first coined the word >"faction" to represent what he was doing, and not the great >Guyanese anthropologist Ivan Van Sertima, as was suggested >on this list.) I am not sure if I suggested it or stated that I once heard Prof. van Sertima use the word "faction" in relation to Haley's ROOTS. Either way, thanks for pointing out the person who 'first coined the word'. >In reading the thread, I am not sure how Haley's The Autobiography of >Malcolm X became relevant, as I thought the work of most relevance to >this discussion was Roots. This was really a side issue. >I think that we can disagree without being disagreeable. The name >calling, on all sides, should stop and the genuine discussion and >dialogue should be increased. I agree. In peace, LatJor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 02:59:34 -0500 From: "Katim S. Touray" <dekat@itis.com> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <199709230803.DAA24661@tower.itis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, i'm writing to say a few things about the debate posting copyrighted material on Gambia-l. but first, i'd like to say that i'm far from a lawyer, and have no technical background on these matters. what i know is that the issue of copyright can be pretty fuzzy, especially as regards the Internet. this situation, as confusing as it is, stems from nothing other than the fact that copyright laws predate the Internet, and further did not forsee it. the situation is pretty much like the fact that the bazooka wasn't around when our ancestors were inventing all our local "jujus" against guns! anyway, i think a lot of people are motivated by a keen desire to help others keep informed. in a situation where most of us are scattered all over the world, such gestures mean a lot. they keep us connected, so to speak, to each other and The Gambia. for this reason, i've tend to believing that a posting once in a while doesn't do any harm. this is especially so given that the person posting the material is not making any money from it, is not depriving the news agency revenue (because very few of us would have bought the news feed anyway), and if anything, is helping the wire services out by informing list subscribers of the services they offer. soft advertising, if you will. but it seems that all the good intentions in the world do not necessarily mean that one couldn't possibly be in violation of the law; either it's letter, or spirit. to help us clarify the issues, and avoid all the name-calling, i sent out enquiries about the issue. my first e-mail was to a mailing list of mailing list managers, and simply asked what there thoughts were on the issue. i was impressed by the volume of response to my enquiry, demonstrating how sensitive the issue is. so i guess the debate on Gambia-l is not atypical, and we shouldn't feel out order. these issues provoke a lot of passion. i'm attaching all responses i've received so far to this e-mail. the majority of sentiments and opinions on the issue side with Barry. that is, unless you are explicitly permitted to do so, it is a violation of copyright laws to post news articles verbatim. moreover, some list managers have removed people from lists for repeated violations of copyright laws. worse, it seems that the practice can jeopardize the existence of a mailing list. given the above circumstances, i suggest that we refrain from posting copyrighted material word for word on our list. in the event that you come across something you want to share with us, please point to it's location on the Internet by reference to its' URL, or the Web site it's found at. alternatively, seek clearance from the Webmaster of the Website you found it before you send it out. and even then, i would further suggest that you append the clearance to the end of the material sent out. it seems that it's O.K. to summarize a news item, and send it out. i think this would be great because not only would you be conforming with the law, but you also would be saving some people a lot of time. those who are satisfied with the summary would be saved the trouble of reading the whole article. i'm mean what can i do about the killing in Cassamance; whether 10 or 20 people are killed in an ambush? let me also say that while the above suggestion might sound a little restrictive, i profer it in the best interest of the list. it is going to be awfully difficult to defend a position where the sentiment on the list is a 'damn the torpedoes' mentatility. we'd have no one to blame but ourselves if the list gets shut down. further, we must realize that our list is run out of an educational institution, namely the Univ. of Washington, Seattle. i'm sure they wouldn't appreciate the thought, talk less the deed, of blatantly violating copyright laws on a list run from there. the second enquiry i sent out on the issue was to a Reuters employee i met at an Internet Expo in Chicago a few months back. i haven't heard from her yet but in the event i do, i'll relay whatever the word is to you. having started this e-mail with a rather long preamble, i will now let you read the feed-back i got from the list managers mailing list. and have a great day! Katim ps: please pardon any typos! ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="JP-Miller.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: JP-Miller.eml (Internet E-Mail Message) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="JP-Miller.eml" Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12941 for <dekat@itis.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:15:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id = OAA24821 From: "J. Philip Miller" <phil@wubios.wustl.edu> Message-Id: <199709221915.OAA24821@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List To: dekat@itis.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:15:17 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> from "Katim S. = Touray" at Sep 22, 97 11:56:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 ALPHA] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 55ea18ffae2524088926cd527b31a4cf > Hi there, >=20 > i would like to know your thoughts on the issue of people posting > copyrighted news on mailing lists. >=20 > i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news items > culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. one of our members has > questioned the ethics, and legality of this, and is generating a lot = of > angst among some subscribers. what do you folks think, and are there = any > resources (FAQs, Web sites, etc) on the subject i can find on the = 'Net? >=20 we have taken the position on sci.med.aids (which is moderated) that = when the entire articles is sent verbatim, then it is a clear violation unless permisssion has been obtained. We take the position that a moderated = list is clearly a publication. I have also had the same policy for nonmoderated groups, sending = reminders to the list and offendors. -phil > thanks a lot for your help. >=20 > Katim. >=20 --=20 J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ME-Taylor.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: ME-Taylor.eml (Internet E-Mail Message) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ME-Taylor.eml" Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com = [207.69.200.12]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15030 for <dekat@itis.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:25:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [38.11.195.221] (ip221.san-francisco2.ca.pub-ip.psi.net = [38.11.195.221]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22296; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:25:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: themet@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: <v03110707b04c755c3863@[38.11.195.221]> In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:23:00 -0700 To: <dekat@itis.com>, <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM> From: "Mark E. Taylor" <themet@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List X-UIDL: df388a7b473075dfa5c3aeb1d5e9e47d At 11:56 AM -0500 9/22/97, Katim S. Touray wrote: >i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news >items >culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. one of our members >has >questioned the ethics, and legality of this, and is generating a lot >of >angst among some subscribers. what do you folks think, and are >there any >resources (FAQs, Web sites, etc) on the subject i can find on the >'Net? It is one thing to quote from the article but it is another thing to reproduce it without the permission of the copyright holder. The wire services are adamant that reposting their news stories without permission is a violation of their copyright unless you first have permission. So I would not allow posting of copyrighted news stories on your mailing list unless you have permission from the copyright holder in hand. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="M-Nolan.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: M-Nolan.eml (Internet E-Mail Message) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="M-Nolan.eml" Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (root@eagle.inetnebr.com = [199.184.119.14]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16187 for <dekat@itis.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16264; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com = (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA06214; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:18 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id = OAA17780; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:16 -0500 From: Mike Nolan <nolan@celery.tssi.com> Message-Id: <199709221929.OAA17780@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List To: dekat@itis.com Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> from "Katim S. = Touray" at Sep 22, 97 11:56:24 am Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5e19d083d715c49f821ff8f75afa72dc > i would like to know your thoughts on the issue of people posting > copyrighted news on mailing lists. >=20 > i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news items > culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. one of our members has > questioned the ethics, and legality of this, and is generating a lot = of > angst among some subscribers. what do you folks think, and are there = any > resources (FAQs, Web sites, etc) on the subject i can find on the = 'Net? I'm a bit of an extremist on this, but I work with publishers for a = living and am probably more sensitive to intellectual property issues as a = result. I (or my list subscribers) have on occasion sought permission from the copyright holder to repost copyrighted material, and I know of a few = sports=20 lists that have arrangements with the local media to do that on a = regular=20 basis. Here's the relevant section of my list guidelines (the whole document is = available by sending e-mail to unlfaq@tssi.com), including a reference = to=20 Brad Templeton's 'copyright myths' web page: 8. Absolutely no violations of copyrights, trademarks, service marks,=20 logos, etc. will be permitted. Do not repost news stories from wire services or online services, material you found on web sites, or = type=20 in stories or someone's column from your local newspaper. For a brief introduction to the issue of copyrights, especially in = cyberspace,=20 see http://www.clarinet.com/brad/copymyths.html. Posting the URL of web pages with Husker content on them is = generally permitted and encouraged, but posting the text from someone's web = page=20 without explicit permission is a copyright violation and is not = permitted. =20 The issue of whether links violate copyright is as of yet undecided, = though, so this could change based on future court rulings. Posters are strongly encouraged to give a short summary of the information = to=20 be found on a web page when posting its URL, both as a courtesy to = those=20 subscribers who do not have web capability and as an aid for those=20 with limited time, so that they only need hit the sites that they = are=20 the most likely to find informative. If you must quote from a published source, do so very sparingly,=20 paraphrasing is better. Raw facts cannot be copyrighted, so game=20 statistics are permitted, but analysis of those statistics would be = an 'intellectual act' and thus protected under the copyright law. = Posts=20 which violate the law or encourage someone else to violate the law = are=20 also forbidden. =20 Significant copyright violations, whether inadvertent or otherwise, = may result in immediate sanctions against the poster. -- Mike Nolan ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="A-Bailey.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: A-Bailey.eml (Internet E-Mail Message) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="A-Bailey.eml" Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17303 for <dekat@itis.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:35:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP=20 (peer crosschecked as: honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) id SXdidi19099; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com = (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA01607 for list-managers-outgoing; = Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by = honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA01507 for = <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id = OAA22248 for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:15:14 -0500 = (CDT) Message-Id: <199709221915.OAA22248@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 14:15:43 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey <adamb@tezcat.com> To: <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: e2933e4f314360771fa1616a474ff8d7 On 9/22/97 11:56 AM, Katim S. Touray <dekat@itis.com> wrote... >i would like to know your thoughts on the issue of people posting >copyrighted news on mailing lists. The proper way to do it is to post a brief snippet or summary, citing = the=20 source, and then give a URL (or something comparable) where people can=20 read the whole article or get more information on the subject. --=20 Adam Bailey \| Chicago, Illinois -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-\| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com \| you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com \| - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP \| http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="C-Norman.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: C-Norman.eml (Internet E-Mail Message) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="C-Norman.eml" Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08204 for <dekat@itis.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:14:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP=20 (peer crosschecked as: honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) id SNdido18343; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:12:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com = (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA13389 for list-managers-outgoing; = Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) = by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA13380 = for <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:53:03 -0700 = (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) = id NAA24283; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709222002.NAA24283@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman <cnorman@best.com> To: dekat@itis.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> (dekat@itis.com) Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a0a6a12d7a274f0c093e7da21202ff58 All texts are copyrighted until they fall into the public domain, so I won't use the term "copyrighted" as you did to refer to published works owned by a news agency. It is definately breaking copyright laws for anyone to post something = they didn't write without either the permission of the copyright holder (the author unless stated otherwise...in the case of the news orgs, they are = the copyright holders) or reposting that falls under "fair use." Fair use = is often abused but generally means it's okay to quote small bits of something. There are other exceptions in common practice. Like most people do not object if you repost something they've written elsewhere if it's not personal. As long as you don't claim authorship. And of course you can quote someone's post in full if you are responding to it. The law here = is somewhat uncertain (and my knowledge of it even more uncertain). What is clear, however, is that news agencies get pretty pissed off if their articles are republished (taht includes usenet groups and mailing lists) without express permission. And the law is in their favor. The rule on my mailing list is no reprints of articles you didn't write, unless you get permission from the copyright holder (exceptions for = things that are clearly announments, like info on conferences or new lists, or messages that say, "please distribute this"). They must then state that permission in the first line of the post. When a message that violates this rule comes through anyway, I don't put it in the archives and I contact the poster. I tell people they should summerize the article (and/or provide short quotes) and then give a full reference to it. An on-line ref is even better. Frankly, I don't worry about the "articles" that are only a paragraph or so long and have even sent some of those myself on = occaision. Everysoften you will get someone who constantly forwards posts from = other mailing lists as well as news agency items. That's when I really crack down. I read them the riot act for copyright (and privacy, when it concerns people's personal posts to other lists) infringement. I don't think I've ever failed to get someone to stop. I think it does enrich a list to have occainsional full reprints of articles so this strict policy of mine can put a damper on it. But I = think about how much I'd hate it if my work got sent places without my permission. There are times when bending (or breaking) the law is a reasonable thing...this is not one of them. Hope this was helpful. Cyndi --=20 _________________________________________________________________________= ______ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi = Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) = cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ = http://www.best.com/~cnorman ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CV-Rospach.eml" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: CV-Rospach.eml (Internet E-Mail Message) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CV-Rospach.eml" Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com = [17.254.0.151]) by tower.itis.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21656 for <dekat@itis.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12334 ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:56:39 -0700 Message-Id: <v0311071cb04c7d57404e@[17.219.12.99]> In-Reply-To: <199709221659.LAA18196@tower.itis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:55:29 -0700 To: <dekat@itis.com>, <list-managers@GreatCircle.COM> From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui@plaidworks.com> Subject: Re: Posting Copyrighted News on a Mailing List X-UIDL: a679fa1d4896ccfc1a54b69a924aeaa7 At 9:56 AM -0700 9/22/97, Katim S. Touray wrote: >i help run a mailing list and subscribers sometimes send in news items >culled from copyrighted sources, e.g. Reuters. We do not allow it. First time offenders get warned, multiple-offenders get nuked. It's not legal (it's always amusing to see the "do not redistribute...." footers show up on the mail), and I know of cases where lists have been shut down because they got nailed by the group the material's been grabbed from. chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome <http://www.solutions.apple.com/ListAdmin/> Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) = <http://www.plaidworks.com/> (<http://www.plaidworks.com/hockey/> +-+ The home for Hockey on the = net) ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7CC.B8EFA460-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:58:11 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <342784A3.3427BE66@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Mahon wrote: > If you have access to Reuters, Xinhua, Pana, etc., as part of you day > to day work or your employer or school makes them available, you > should check whether you or your employer or your school has arranged > a right to re-distribute the information from those sources. > > If they have not then you should not re-distribute items from any > copyright source to this list or any other. I know it is easy and I > know that some of you feel it is your right, but even if you feel you > are a poor, underprivileged, under informed, etc., individual you do > not have the right to (re)use other peoples intellectual property > without permission. I must say that while I have stopped redistributing copyrighted material after your first posting I do find this constant reminding rather annoying. It would be stupid for me to go on the record for urging others to continue this practice, as it is technically illegal, but I think the following should be noted. It is very common for college instructors to redistribute copyrighted material that relate to their lectures in the form of photo-copies and I think I can say with some certainty, based on my own experience, that over 90 percent of the time this is done without the required permission. In these cases, the infringement of copyright laws is worse because the instructors, and by the extension the institutions they represent, actually profit from this exercise because of the fees they collect from students. In addition and on a more personal level, you will probably find that most of the activity on the photo-copying machines at your local library is also illegal since most people use them to make copies of copyrighted material. Once again, most of the time you press the record button on your VCR or your audio cassette recorder you are also conducting an act that goes contrary to various copyright laws. I'm quite sure the companies you mentioned who own the copyrights to the material re-distributed here are far more worried about them being falsely copied or better yet used to make profits which is not the case here. Remember, most people do not have access to the news wire stories being released here as these stories are not widely distributed "legally". The point is simply that, like driving a car over the speed limit, we all do these things so please do us favour and let the issue go. If you find the practice distasteful you can either leave the forum or take it up with the respective organisation who I'm sure will not have the time to respond. Thanks, Latir Gheran ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:44:51 +0200 From: "Momodou S Sidibeh" <momodou.sidibeh@stockholm.mail.telia.com> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: SV: SeneGambian Affairs Message-ID: <199709230952.LAA07002@d1o2.telia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mr. Nordam, It is not just sports, don't you think? Danes jubilating when Germany loses a match is just a symptom. Danes cannot forgive Germans for the occupation of Denmark during the war, and perhaps this germanophobia even goes back further that that. Gambians behave, it seems, equally strangely towards the Senegalese. And it is not just since the Kukoi of 1981 and the subsequent Confederal set-up, as someone suggested. When a former Senegalese finance minister visited Gambia, I think in 1967 or 68, he made some comments (can anyone recall or have records of what exactly it was he said) that infuriated members of the Black Brotherhood organization. [There was at this time a cross-section of high school students which became radicalized as a consequence of the anti-colonial struggle in Guinea-Bissau, the milititantism of the Black Panthers, and the student revolt against the war in Vietnam]. They staged a demonstration during Seng's (former President Leopold Senghore) visit, clashed with the police and burnt the Senegalese flag. Anti-Senegalese feelings amongst the urban youth surged since then. (perhaps these sentiments were lingering amongst the Gambian clerical class since the religious wars during the last decades of the last century). However, young Gambians everywhere, seem to believe themselves hipper than other fellow West Africans. They do not just call Malians, Ghanaians and even Nigerians names; they for some strange reason/s feel themselves somewhat superior. Maybe this is some mechanism compensating for their ignorance, poverty, and perhaps "smallness". Best regards, Modou Sidibeh. ---------- > Fr�n: Asbj�rn Nordam <asbjorn.nordam@dif.dk> > Till: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > �mne: SV: SeneGambian Affairs > Datum: den 22 september 1997 09:23 > > Sorry, but I will just say that when it comes to sport you can > expect things like that. We danes like it very much every time the > germans are beaten in football. No matter who do it, if they just do it. > Asbj�rn Nordam > > > Fra: Badara Joof[SMTP:Joof@winhlp.no] > > Svar til: gambia-l@u.washington.edu > > Sendt: 18. september 1997 17:49 > > Til: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List > > Emne: RE: SeneGambian Affairs > > > > I could remember The African Nation Cup footbal > > tournnament orgainized in Egypt (1986)?, 99% of the Gambian population > > was very happy when Senegal was eliminated by Cote D'Ivoire (Ivory > > Coast). > > I found it very silly, we are more than neigbours, these two countries > > were divided because of colonialism, but if not it was one country. > > Buharry. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:11:44 +0200 From: "Momodou S Sidibeh" <momodou.sidibeh@stockholm.mail.telia.com> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: SV: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down Message-ID: <199709230952.LAA06996@d1o2.telia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello!!!! I am around indeed. I guess some may have concluded that there simply is too little time to devote to "talking" at the moment. Other things are keeping me preoccupied. it has become more and more difficult to have to go through scores of mails every week. Nevertheless, it is of some importance to have a constant feel of the ideas in currency. Unfortunately, I've come to appreciate the weaknesses and strengths of the list and have wanted to make comments to that effect, but I am unable to find time. I think the discussion on the Ahmaddiya, for instance, needed to be expanded and the implications of the Gambian state's attempt to desecularise itself thoroughly discussed. [Think of this: the leader of the separatist movement in the Casamance is a catholic priest. The Mourides in the holy town of Touba are becomming more and more powerful. They are not only one of the wealthiest sects in Africa, they will soon open an Islamic university, an airport, and a tv-station; they are already a state within a state, and any government in Senegal which fails to obtain their blessing can hardly survive. The policies of the governemnt in Gambia seem to be alienating the non-muslim population, even as the war goes on in Casamance. Can this not spell a nightmare scenario?]. �� Monogamy may be boring for some. The Islamic solution has gone round the problem by allowing up to four wives? ��There also seems to be an info. lag about the Senegambian condition. Trade has resumed and the transGambia crossing is as busy as ever, but not without a price tag for the Gambia. The Gambian delegation that negotiated the resumption of trade and transport made concessions to the Senegalese. The reasons are still a mystery! They reduced the tariff for all(?) kinds of Senegalese-owned vehicles using the ferries and revenue lost is calculated to be 600.000 dalasi a month (or 7.2 million annually!). The government spent some 400,000 dalasis on the July 22 celebrations but many uncertificated teachers have still not received their salaries for the month of August. With time on my side, I will surely contribute the little I can to the discussions. Keep up the good work down there. Modou sidibeh. ---------- > Fr�n: Modou Jallow <mjallow@st6000.sct.edu> > Till: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > �mne: Re: DEVELOPMENT: Growth of World Economies Slows Down > Datum: den 21 september 1997 10:29 > > I think we ought to revisit the debate between Agriculture versus > Information Technology in the Gambia ... won't you say? > > Where are Momodous Buharry and Sidibeh???? > > Also, whatever happened to the Gambia Shadow List members...Pa Musa and > Co. in the Gambia? In black American english (slang) we say: Wha'Zup???? > > Have a nice weekend...well, what's left of it anyway. > > Regards, > > Moe S. Jallow > ====================================================================== > mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:54:24 +0000 From: Barry Mahon <barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu> To: ASJanneh@aol.com Cc: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please..... Message-ID: <34279FE0.2189@ci.rech.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ASJanneh@aol.com wrote: > > Barry: > > perhaps you should tell some of us what laws, regulations, etc. we have > broken by redistributing news and information to Gambia-l. Reuters, Pana, etc., have created the news items - even though the items are facts, e.g that an incident took place in the Casamance, the act of creating the news item is an intellectual effort and under the laws of the country of origin of Reuters (the UK) for example, it is copyright. The fact that you are in the USA does not matter, copyright is an international law. Unless you have specific permission you are not authorised to re-distribute it. Gambia-l is a mailing list offered by the U.Washington as a service - they cannot authorise re-distribution unless they have specific permission, which is unlikely. It is almost impossible for the U.Washington to 'police' the list but I am sure that the 'small print' of the U. Washington guidelines for mailing lists prohibits re-distribution of copyright material, or it should, because if not the U.Washington runs the risk of being prosecuted. > What do you know about the arrangements some of our institutions have with the various wire > services? Do you know much about the AOL contract / user guidelines? If so, > please let us know. I am not familiar with the arrangements for individual institutions, how could I be. That is why I mentioned that perhaps your employer or institution has rights (for example the Chamber of Commerce). I would say that in my experience owners of intellectual property such as Reuters, do not usually give a 'blank cheque' to those who receive and pay for their services, allowing them to re-distribute it at will. The most they usually allow is distribution within the organisation or to the members of the Chamber of Commerce. I would be AMAZED if AOL has rights that allow any user of AOL to re-distribute. Think about it, if Reuters allowed that how could they sell their services to other people?? If you would like to post a copy of the AOL guidelines on the list or send me them as a mail I will be pleased to comment on them. Similarly if the list moderators care to distribute the U.Washington guidelines and the Chamber of Commerce people could distribute their permissions, then we would all be aware of what we can or cannot do. Sorry for the long reply, this is a serious matter. As I said there are moves in the US Congress to heavily restrict use of the Internet as a way of avoiding the 'piracy' that intellectual property owners claim is going on on the Net. Would you prefer to have your whole usage restricted?? Bye, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 9:08:15 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: dekat@itis.com, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Copyright issues ... Message-ID: <TFSHFVFU@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dr Katim I respectfully disagree with the threat to the existence of the forum =20 because we are NOT getting any monetary compensation when we email it or =20= =20 forward it to our friends=2E If I am wrong I stand corrected=2E=2E=2E=2E Again I reiterate As long as we are NOT SELLING the material and there =20 is financial gains for Gambia L (of course the words have to be slightly =20 amended -not word for word- to avoid problems) we have nothing to fear=2E =20= =20 It is a free country and our rights are also protected=2E Peace Habib -----Original Message----- From: dekat@itis=2Ecom Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 8:40 AM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: Copyright issues =2E=2E=2E << File: JP-MILLER=2EEML >> << File: ME-TAYLOR=2EEML >> << File: =20 M-NOLAN=2EEML >> << File: A-BAILEY=2EEML >> << File: C-NORMAN=2EEML >> <= < =20 File: CV-ROSPACH=2EEML >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- Hi folks, =20 i'm writing to say a few things about the debate posting copyrighted material on Gambia-l=2E but first, i'd like to say that i'm far from a lawyer, and have no technical background on these matters=2E what i know =20= =20 is that the issue of copyright can be pretty fuzzy, especially as regards =20 the Internet=2E this situation, as confusing as it is, stems from nothing =20 other than the fact that copyright laws predate the Internet, and further did =20 not forsee it=2E the situation is pretty much like the fact that the bazooka wasn't around when our ancestors were inventing all our local "jujus" against guns! anyway, i think a lot of people are motivated by a keen desire to help others keep informed=2E in a situation where most of us are scattered all over the world, such gestures mean a lot=2E they keep us connected, so to speak, to each other and The Gambia=2E for this reason, i've tend to believing that a posting once in a while doesn't do any harm=2E this is especially so given that the person posting the material is not making =20 any money from it, is not depriving the news agency revenue (because very few of us would have bought the news feed anyway), and if anything, is =20 helping the wire services out by informing list subscribers of the services they offer=2E soft advertising, if you will=2E but it seems that all the good intentions in the world do not necessarily mean that one couldn't possibly be in violation of the law; either it's letter, or spirit=2E to help us clarify the issues, and avoid all the name-calling, i sent out enquiries about the issue=2E my first e-mail was=20= =20 to a mailing list of mailing list managers, and simply asked what there thoughts were on the issue=2E i was impressed by the volume of response to my enquiry, demonstrating how sensitive the issue is=2E so i guess the debate on Gambia-l is not atypical, and we shouldn't feel out order=2E =20 these issues provoke a lot of passion=2E i'm attaching all responses i've received so far to this e-mail=2E the majority of sentiments and opinions on the issue side with Barry=2E that =20= =20 is, unless you are explicitly permitted to do so, it is a violation of copyright laws to post news articles verbatim=2E moreover, some list managers have removed people from lists for repeated violations of copyright laws=2E worse, it seems that the practice can jeopardize the existence of a mailing list=2E given the above circumstances, i suggest that we refrain from posting copyrighted material word for word on our list=2E in the event that you =20 come across something you want to share with us, please point to it's location on the Internet by reference to its' URL, or the Web site it's found at=2E alternatively, seek clearance from the Webmaster of the Website you found it before you send it out=2E and even then, i would further suggest that =20 you append the clearance to the end of the material sent out=2E it seems that it's O=2EK=2E to summarize a news item, and send it out=2E i= =20 think this would be great because not only would you be conforming with the =20 law, but you also would be saving some people a lot of time=2E those who are satisfied with the summary would be saved the trouble of reading the =20 whole article=2E i'm mean what can i do about the killing in Cassamance; whether 10 or 20 people are killed in an ambush? let me also say that while the above suggestion might sound a little restrictive, i profer it in the best interest of the list=2E it is going =20= =20 to be awfully difficult to defend a position where the sentiment on the list is a 'damn the torpedoes' mentatility=2E we'd have no one to blame but ourselves if the list gets shut down=2E further, we must realize that our list is run out of an educational institution, namely the Univ=2E of Washington, Seattle=2E i'm sure they wouldn't appreciate the thought, talk less the deed, of blatantly =20 violating copyright laws on a list run from there=2E the second enquiry i sent out on the issue was to a Reuters employee i =20 met at an Internet Expo in Chicago a few months back=2E i haven't heard from =20= =20 her yet but in the event i do, i'll relay whatever the word is to you=2E having started this e-mail with a rather long preamble, i will now let =20 you read the feed-back i got from the list managers mailing list=2E and have a great day! Katim ps: please pardon any typos! ************************************ National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 9:13:24 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: barry.mahon@ci.rech.lu, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: please..... Message-ID: <TFSHHOYG@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Let me add what I was told by our legal dept For personal use only and not for resale and as long as there are no =20 money exchange or transactions documented purposely for financial gain =20 you can get away with it=2E Secondly by putting it on the internet you are asking for distribution =20 indirectly anyway!! Just a point of observation Habib -----Original Message----- From: barry=2Emahon@ci=2Erech=2Elu Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 8:41 AM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: Re: please=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- ASJanneh@aol=2Ecom wrote: > > Barry: > > perhaps you should tell some of us what laws, regulations, etc=2E we have > broken by redistributing news and information to Gambia-l=2E Reuters, Pana, etc=2E, have created the news items - even though the items are facts, e=2Eg that an incident took place in the Casamance, the act of creating the news item is an intellectual effort and under the laws of the country of origin of Reuters (the UK) for example, it is copyright=2E The fact that you are in the USA does not matter, copyright is an international law=2E Unless you have specific permission you are not authorised to re-distribute it=2E Gambia-l is a mailing list offered by the U=2EWashington as a service - they cannot authorise re-distribution unless they have specific permission, which is unlikely=2E It is almost impossible for the U=2EWashington to 'police' the list but I am sure that the 'small print' of the U=2E Washington guidelines for mailing lists prohibits re-distribution of copyright material, or it should, because if not the U=2EWashington runs the risk of being prosecuted=2E > What do you know about the arrangements some of our institutions have =20 with the various wire > services? Do you know much about the AOL contract / user guidelines? =20 If so, > please let us know=2E I am not familiar with the arrangements for individual institutions, how could I be=2E That is why I mentioned that perhaps your employer or institution has rights (for example the Chamber of Commerce)=2E I would say that in my experience owners of intellectual property such as Reuters, do not usually give a 'blank cheque' to those who receive and pay for their services, allowing them to re-distribute it at will=2E The most they usually allow is distribution within the organisation or to the members of the Chamber of Commerce=2E I would be AMAZED if AOL has rights that allow any user of AOL to re-distribute=2E Think about it, if Reuters allowed that how could they sell their services to other people?? If you would like to post a copy of the AOL guidelines on the list or send me them as a mail I will be pleased to comment on them=2E Similarly if the list moderators care to distribute the U=2EWashington guidelines and the Chamber of Commerce people could distribute their permissions, then we would all be aware of what we can or cannot do=2E Sorry for the long reply, this is a serious matter=2E As I said there are moves in the US Congress to heavily restrict use of the Internet as a way of avoiding the 'piracy' that intellectual property owners claim is going on on the Net=2E Would you prefer to have your whole usage restricted?? Bye, Barry ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 9:51:48 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: fyi Message-ID: <TFSHURTU@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Update info on Casamance fyi DAKAR (September 23, 1997 09:04 a=2Em=2E EDT) - Senegalese troops killed at= =20 least 15 separatist rebels in the southern Casamance province, an =20 informed military source said here Tuesday amid fears of escalating =20 violence=2E Senegalese soldiers encircled and shelled a rebel base at Santhiaba =20 Mandjack, close to the border with Guinea-Bissau, for four hours, the =20 source said, without giving details of when the operation took place=2E The army launched a major operation in the province, largely separated =20 from the rest of the West African country by the nation of Gambia, since =20 rebels killed 26 soldiers in an attack Aug=2E 19=2E Renewed fighting in the past five weeks has raised fears of the collapse =20 of a cease-fire signed in December 1995 between Dakar and the Casamance =20 Movement of Democratic Forces led by Father Diamacoune Senghor, but some =20 sources blame breakaway rebel forces=2E A correspondent for the independent daily "Su Quotidian" wrote of carnage =20= =20 when he accompanied the troops in the attack, which took place on an =20 unspecified date after the rebel base was spotted by a military plane=2E "In the rebel base, about two kilometers (a mile and a half) from the =20 command post, bodies were visibly blown apart, suspended from trees, torn =20= =20 limb from limb like puppets," he reported=2E "The base was set ablaze, men=20= =20 were dying like flies=2E It was horrific, it was hell=2E" ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:55:28 -0400 (EDT) From: njie.1@osu.edu To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: African Women Global Network International Conference (fwd) Message-ID: <199709231555.LAA17620@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To: gs01fnn@panther.Gsu.EDU, njie.1@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu >Subject: African Women Global Network International Conference >Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:08:50 CDT >From: Ndella Njie <ndella@iastate.edu> >AFRICAN WOMEN GLOBAL NETWORK (AWOGNet) > >Presents > >THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE > >ON > >WOMEN IN TECHNOLOGY & DEVELOPMENT > > >The first International and Annual Conference of The African Women Global >Network (AWOGNet) is scheduled for April 10-11, 1998 at 3110 Olentangy Road, >Columbus, OH 43202. Columbus, Ohio. There will be two pre-conference >workshops on April 9, 1998 > >Conference Goals: 1. To promote and build a network of knowledge >sources 1. Technology especially as they affect women in development; 2. >To share and exchange information and understanding on on-going efforts; >3. To explore barriers for unmet technology needs (in theory and >practice) for women in different communities; and 4. To educate >Institutions, NGOs (Non Governmental Organizations) and others regarding >these issues. > >We expect hundreds of scholars from the United States and Africa, as well as >from Europe, and Asia to attend and make formal presentations. Sessions will >focus on a wide range of subjects that relate to Women in Development and >Technology. > > >The Conference hotel is the Ramada University Hotel and Conference Center in >Columbus Ohio. The address is 3110 Olentangy Road, Columbus, OH 43202. Tel: >(614) 267-7461, fax: (614) 263-5299. The room rates are $69.00/night for any >of the rooms (plus tax of 15.75%). The hotel will guarantee these convention >rates only until March 30, 1998. > > >Mail your registration today! Preregistration forms must be received by >February 4 , 1998. Registration materials received after February 28 >will not be processed. Participants whose materials do not arrive by that >date will be required to register and pay on-site fees in Columbus. > >We urge the International Travellers especially to make their your >travel and hotel reservations early to avoid unexpected delays with the >US. Embassy. Travellers must comply with the Immigration requirements of >the area. > >CALL FOR PAPERS! CALL FOR PAPERS! CALL FOR PAPERS! > >AFRICAN WOMEN GLOBAL NETWORK (AWOGNet) > >Presents > >THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON > >"WOMEN IN TECHNOLOGY & DEVELOPMENT" > >When: April 9-11 1998 > >Where: Ohio State University - The Ramada University Hotel and Conference >Center > >Sponsors: AWOGNet - The Center For African Studies > University Technology Services > >Co-Sponsors: Office of Minority Affairs; Office of International Education; >Midwest Universities for International Activities - MUCIA Global > >Conference Focus: Information/Communication Technologies > >Papers submitted for this conference will focus on the Social, Political, >Economic, and Cultural influences of Information and Communication >Technologies especially as they relate to the Education of Women and Children >in Africa, and Capacity Building in African Nations. > >Tracks:* Please see the AWOGNet Web Page: http://www.osu.edu/org/awognet/ >for details. The three major tracts are summarized below > >1. Learning at a Distance > The three "As" - Affordability, Availability, Access > >2. Socio/Cultural Implications of the New Media > New ways of communicating, Drivers and Barriers > >3. The Influence Scope and Limits of The Internet/Web > Internet/Web - For Whom? Globalization or Balkanization, Africa's > special case > >Dead Line for Papers: December 19, 1997; Responses: by January 19, 19 > >Papers should be sent to: AWOGNet, Center for African Studies, The Ohio >State University, 314 Oxley Hall, 1712 Neil Avenue, Columbus, Ohio >43210-1219, USA. Phone: (614) 292-5901; Fax: (614) 292-4273; email: >onyejekwe.2@osu.edu > >African Women Global Network (AWOGNet) > >First International Conference on Women in Technology and Development > >Track Descriptions > > >The AWOGNet Program Committee invites you to submit a presentation proposal >for the first International Conference on "Women in Technology and >Development" > >We seek presenters from Institutions of Higher Learning, NGOs (Non >Governmental Organizations) and Professionals. We are particularly >interested in technology issues that relate to women of African decent. >While the following descriptions suggest ideas for topics, they are not >all-inclusive. So you can choose a topic, as well as choose your own >format of presentation, whether it is the traditional lecture mode, a >non-traditional mode, a panel discussion, or another format for sharing >your ideas or experiences. If you choose a panel mode, we would like to >have names of your panelists, their topics, and their papers. > > Proposal Deadline December 19, 1997 > > >Track 1 Learning at a Distance > >In this increasingly complex world, what are the most important issues we can >address with new forms of learning, especially when the learning occurs >at a distance? The emphasis here is on how developing countries can afford >Distance Education. More at risk are women and children, but do they need >it, how will it be made available and what mode of access is best for >them? How will these new technologies and the changing learning >paradigms, change institutions in the Developing countries? What National >and or institutional policy changes need to take place in the Developing >countries in order to ensure that new learning paradigms can be adopted? >Are there business and funding models that can be used to create >sustainable, scaleable, and affordable access strategies >to these new instructional technologies? > >This track will seek papers that address such questions as: If Developing >countries are to create Communities of Learners and are expected to meet >the surging demand for education, can they device appropriate technology >transfer and in what mode? Can we apply our ability to adapt, innovate, >and collaborate in new and challenging ways? How should we re-engineer or >redesigned our institutions of learning to better serve today's students? >Is this a sure way to bridge the widening gap between the Developed and >the Developing Countries? Since implementing new technologies can strain >existing and shallow resources of Developing countries, will this >further the imbalance between the Developing Countries' expectations and >ability to deliver? > >What are the effective support models for faculty who want to apply Distance >Learning technology to curriculum development? Are there necessary >organizational forms that have been developed to promote technology in the >teaching and learning environment for the Developing Countries? >How can we meet the ever increasing demand for technology support? What >resources should Developing countries put into development, training, and >retraining? What models of partnership and leverage have succeeded in >increasing the quality of Distance Education. What values are added to >learning? What changes are expected in years to come? > > > >Track 2 Socio/Cultural Implication of the New Media > >It is almost imperative that strategic partnerships and alliances are now >more of a necessity in Developing countries than in Developed countries >especially in the areas of information and communication technologies. In >the advanced countries, economic pressures, new opportunities, >interdependent relationships, and resource leveraging are some of the >driving forces that create unique partnership opportunities. But can >Developing countries capitalize on their current positions >(socio/economic barriers, cultural preferences and enormous debt to >International agencies, poor infrastructural developments etc.) by >forming new partnerships and devising ingenious ways to overcome being >trapped in poverty and underdevelopment? If so, with whom can they associate? >Who is in a position to form new alliances with Developing Countries? > >This track will seek papers addressing questions such as: What are the key >cultural and socio/economic barriers towards the creation and application of >the new Information and Communication Media? What are the obstacles to >technological innovation and how can they be overcome? How have the developed >countries overcome similar or different barriers and harnessed technological >applications that have solved similar problems? Can these applications be >transferred appropriately to Developing nations ? Can the application of new >technologies, or the use of established technologies be effected in >Developing countries. Are there innovative ways, to enable our Nations to >operate more efficiently, help women and children to learn more >effectively, enhance communications across the globe, and improve many >fundamental services such as health, Environmental, etc. How do >Developing Countries form and maintain partnerships? What makes a >partnership successful? What can help make a partnership work as a true >alliance, not merely as a merger or hostile takeover? Can partners also >compete? Can the Developing countries really be equal partners? > > > >Track 3 The Influence Scope and Limits of the Internet/Web > > >The Internet and the World Wide Web have shrunk the world by enabling >electronic communication and other forms of virtual associations. Network >communications has become a cornerstone technology for shrinking the map and >creating Global Units for Education, Communication, Commerce and so forth. >Furthermore, the potential of networked information for supporting >institutional teaching, learning, scholarship, and research needs is >enormous. In the developed Countries, Networked information has become >the focal point for different types of interdisciplinary activities, from >intellectual collaborations, service synergy, and organizational >alliances to corporate and industrial alliances. Yet, the Developing >countries seem to remain on the periphery. Full participation of >Developing Countries in this Global economy remains a critical piece of >the puzzle for really arriving at the ultimate Global Communities. > >This track will seek papers that address such questions as: For whom is the >highly publicized Information Super Highway? Have the Internet and the World >Wide Web widened the gap between the technology haves and Technology >Have-Nots, the technology rich and the technology poor? Where and how do >Developing countries begin to build the necessary Information and >Communication network infrastructure? How can they take advantage of >these new capabilities and services? How can Developing countries effect >the application of these new technologies, or established technologies >to the benefit of women and Children? How can Developing countries best >address issues that are organizational, technological, and information >dimensions of networked information? In the Developing countries, how >will policy decisions, and issues of information creation, organization, >discovery, retrieval, and ownership, the networked information >environment; access and fair use issues be addressed? > >REGISTRATION Information > >Pre- Registration >AWOGNet Members $55.00 >AWOGNet Non-members $100.00 >Students $20.00 > >AWOGNet Workshops: >$30.00 each (The two Workshops cost a total of $50.00). Workshops are on a >first come, first served basis > >AWOGNet Banquet $25.00, members; and $35.00, non members; $10.00 for Stude > >On-Site Registration >AWOGNet Members $60.00; AWOGNet Non-members $110; Students $25.00 > >Please send checks to The Ohio State University/AWOGNet at AWOGNet, >Center for >African Studies, The Ohio State University, 314 Oxley Hall, 1712 Neil Avenue, >Columbus, Ohio 43210-1219, USA > >Registration Form > >Name _______________________________________ > >Address ______________________________________ > >City _________________________________________ > >State _________ Zip _______________ ________ > >Country ______________________________ > >E-Mail ________________________________________ > >Affiliation _____________________________________ > >Office Telephone ________________________________ > >Discipline _____________________________________ > >Region/Country of Interest _________________________ > > >WORKSHOPS > >The Participants: > >Anyone with interest in any of the above themes is welcomed to >participate in this workshop, after registration and paying nominal fees. > >Fees & Registration: >------------------- >Registration fee/s for AWOGNet Workshop/s $30.00 each (The two Workshops >cost a total of $50.00) > >If you are registering within the United States, for the Workshops, please >contact Ms. Lois Ann McAdoo, at the University Technology Services, Ohio >State University, phone (614) 292-5901. Otherwise, please send your >checks to The Ohio State University/AWOGNet, AWOGNet, Center for African >Studies, The Ohio State University, 314 Oxley Hall, 1712 Neil Avenue, >Columbus, Ohio 43210-1219, USA > >Morning Workshop: AWOGShop1 > >Introduction to Internet Services > > How do you surf the Internet? What kinds of software do you need? How > do you get on-line and up-to-date? Your will discover the answers > to these essential questions and more during morning, hands-on > workshop. Don't miss this fabulous opportunity to be on the > cutting-edge of technology. > > Dates & Times: > Thursday April 9, 1998 > 9:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. > > Place: > The Ohio State University > 345 Central Classrooms > 2009 Millikin Road > Columbus, Ohio 43210 > > Instructors: > Dr. Egondu Onyejekwe, UTS Director, Emerging Technologies > Michael Fulmer, Customer Support, UTS > Richard Wofford, Macintosh Technical Support, UTS > > > Topics: > An introduction to Internet services covering: > Macintosh Fundamentals > Sending Electronic Mail > Reading Newsgroups > Using Electronic Reference Works > Using Web Browsers > Designing Web Pages > > Admission: > Class is limited to 30 students. No prior experience >needed. > >Afternoon Workshop: AWOGShop2 > >Enriching the Classroom with Distance Learning Resources > >Those who teach in Africa and about Africa, as well as those who have >interest in Africa's Development efforts will find this workshop very >informative. It should engage researchers, teachers, NGOs and the general >public on what resources can be used to reach students at a distance, >especially in rural communities. It is also a very informative workshop >on what is available on the Internet, and the World Wide Web, especially >those related to Africa. It illustrates how to locate such materials, >and how they could be used for acquiring accurate and up-to-date >information about Africa. > > >Dates & Times: > Thursday April 9, 1998 > 1:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. > > Place: > > > The Ohio State University > 120 Baker Systems > 1971 Neil Avenue > Columbus, Ohio 43210 > >Instructors: > > Dr. Bob Dixon, Senior Engineer, University Technology Services > Dr. Egondu Onyejekwe, UTS Director, Emerging Technologies > >Topics: > An introduction to different Distance Education Delivery >Media > I/P Video > Compressed Digital Video > Electronic Messaging > The World Wide Web > Accessing Educational Resources for Teaching about Africa > > Admission: > Class is limited to 50 students. No prior experience >needed. > >Egondu (Ego) Rosemary Onyejekwe Ph.D. Phone: (614) 292-5901 >Director, Emerging Technologies >University Technology Services Fax: (614) 292-7081 >445 Baker Systems Engineering >The Ohio State University >1971 Neil Ave, Columbus, OH 43210 E-mail: onyejekwe.2@osu.edu >Web Addresses: http://www.osu.edu/org/awognet/ > http://www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/disted > >-----------------------------END OF MESSAGE------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:01:57 +0300 From: BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: "'gambia-l@u.washington.edu'" <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) Message-ID: <01BCC853.71C97480@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCC853.71DA3D60" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC853.71DA3D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr.Ghanim! Thanks very much for your response! It turns out that BARRY MAHON is = exactly what he was protesting that he wasn't: a Trouble Maker.If he is = on the PAYROLL of Reuters or Pana or whatever News Organisation he is = part-timing for as an Intellectual Property Policeman,he would be well = advised to register himself to another Chat Group and leave our this = tiny and friendly Gambian group in peace. I believe Mr.Touray is a very smart Gambian,but I found it profoundly = disturbing that at time when he was belittling the significance of = KNOWING that 10 or 20 people are ambushed in Cassamance,he was giving = too much time on allaying the fears and petty moral concerns of someone = (Barry Mahon) who has contributed almost nothing to the issues that are = discussed here on the list.Barry should and must not be given the = impression that he has the slightest moral authority to tell us what to = do or what not to do.If he is that much in psychological need of being a = head master,he should build himself a school somewhere in the United = Kingdom,not far from the Reuters Headquarters,and teach British children = how morally reprehensible it is to Redistribute information collected by = Reuters without first getting clearance from its headquaters. For us(SeneGambians and friends of SeneGambia) to know the blood of how = many of our brethren was senselessly spilled in Cassamance carries a far = more moral weight and cannot even be compared to the negligible risk we = run by making such an information available for free.But someone like = Barry would neither be able to grasp or feel that,would he?! Regards Bassss!=20 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:12:57 -0400 (EDT) From: njie.1@osu.edu To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Fw: Intn'l African Student Assoc. Newsletter seeking submissions(fwd) Message-ID: <199709231612.MAA29471@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >---------- >> From: jacqueline onyejiaka <jxo3650@UTARLG.UTA.EDU> >> To: jnyamwan@sophia.smith.edu; vbaffour@bennett1.bennett.edu; >cmadu@lynx.dac.neu.edu; habiola@juno.com >> Subject: IASA Newsletter seeking submissions(fwd) >> Date: Monday, September 22, 1997 1:10 PM >> >> >> >> >> PLS POST TO ALL INTERESTED PARTIES >> >> >> IASA- The International African Students Association Newsletter >> is seeking contributions. >> >> IASA is currently in the process of trying to put together a >> newsletter that can be distributed to students in schools and campuses >> through out the country. The magazine will feature stories about african >> students and how they are coping with life in a foreign land. Their >> joys, their woes, their achievements and most of all their hopes and >> asipirations. >> You have any stories, poems, statistics or anecdotes that you >> think might be of interest to other african students pls do not hesitate >> to share it. We want to know what matters to you, your views on current >> events back home, what you think our role as students can or should be >> in the struggle. We want to know about your particular struggles, are >> there things you wish you had known become you went to your current >> college, are there things that you have discovered that might have made >> a difference in hind sight...Are you involved in any projects >> either here or at home that is making a difference, do you know someone >> who is? Pls let us know. If you are an artist, draw, doddle, write poems, >> short plays etc we would also like to hear from you. >> >> Guidelines: >> preferably a student >> essays between 300 and 550 words >> poems no more than 30 lines >> artwork must be in black & white and fit standard 8 "11 paper >> deadline for submissions- October 31, 1997 >> >> For more info pls contact: >> >> Jacqueline Onyejiaka @ 817 272 6771 or jxo3650@utarlg.uta.edu >>or Violet Baffour - Vbaffour@bennett1.bennett.edu >> >> or mail articles to >> >> P.O Box 191489 >> Arlington, TX 76019 >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:20:00 -0500 (EST) From: Ousman Gajigo <gajigoo@wabash.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: please. Message-ID: <196CBF33BA@scholar.wabash.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Guys, Gambia-l is a discussion forum where people bring forth issues that are of concern to them. We may not agree with everyone's opinion but we should not tell anyone to leave the list because his comments are irritaing us. Ousman ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 1997 16:40:27 GMT From: momodou@inform-bbs.dk (Momodou Camara) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Fwd: HEALTH-ETHICS: US Medical Experiments in Third World Assailed Message-ID: <1094770591.583358624@inform-bbs.dk> Worldwide distribution via the APC networks. * 18-Sep-97 * Title: HEALTH-ETHICS: US Medical Experiments in Third World Assailed By Jim Lobe WASHINGTON, Sep 18 (IPS) - The most influential medical journal in the United States has assailed as unethical, US-funded medical experiments on HIV-infected women in the Third World. A blistering editorial in this week's edition of the New England Journal of Medicine compared ongoing experiments in Asia, Africa and the Caribbean with the notorious Tuskegee study, a government-funded project in which poor African-American men with syphilis were studied over four decades without being provided treatment. Only four months ago, President Bill Clinton officially apologised to the five remaining survivors among the 412 Tuskegee men and their families, insisting that the study, which ended in the face of public protest in 1972, was ''clearly racist.'' The editor of the Journal of Medicine editorial, Dr. Marcia Angell, wrote that ongoing HIV research in the Third World was similar to the Tuskegee scandal. ''The fact remains that many studies are done in the Third World that simply could not be done in the countries sponsoring the work,'' Angell declared. ''It seems as if we have not come very far from Tuskegee after all.'' The White House Thursday rejected her analogy, calling it ''unfortunate and untrue.'' Spokesman Mike McCurry said the Clinton administration ''is very confident that the ethical review of these experiments has been done with a high sense of moral purpose, and that the ultimate objective...is to protect millions of children.'' The specific focus of the Journal's editorial was a series of experiments in 15 countries on the use of the anti-AIDS drug AZT in preventing the transmission of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) from pregnant women to their infants. The U.S. government funded nine of the studies of more than 12,000 women through its National Institute of Health (NIH) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The 15 countries included in the study Cote d'Ivoire, Uganda, Tanzania, South Africa, Malawi, Thailand, Ethiopia, Burkina Faso, Zimbabwe, Kenya and the Dominican Republic. In these experiments, the women were divided into control groups, one of which received a placebo - a medication which is known to have no effect on their condition but which is administered to compare the effectiveness of the medication being tested. Other groups were given varying dosages of AZT, a very expensive medication which is known to reduce the transmission of HIV to infants by as much as two-thirds. Extended use of AZT is now considered standard treatment in the United States. The controversy underscores the ethics of using a placebo in the experiment when the effectiveness of AZT is already well- established. Previous studies have shown that 25 percent of babies born to HIV-infected women will contract the virus. AZT treatment reduces that percentage to eight percent or lower. The Health Research Group of the consumer association 'Public Citizen', which first raised the issue earlier this year, charged that about 1,000 children born to the placebo group will contract HIV and probably die, and that the doctors who conducted the experiment violated their ethical obligation to these women by denying them AZT. Their charges were endorsed by Angell in her article. The basic ethical principle at stake, she wrote, is: ''when effective treatment exists, a placebo may not be used. Only when there is no known effective treatment is it ethical to compare a potential new treatment with a placebo.'' This principle was codified in the Declaration of Helsinki of the World Health Organisation (WHO) in 1964 when it decreed that ''in any medical study, every patient - including those of a control group, if any - should be assured of the best proven diagnostic and therapeutic method.'' Defenders of the current research argue that the ''best'' method is simply not available in most of the developing world because of the great costs involved. ''The '076' (AZT-based) regimen, which is the standard of care in the developed world, is not feasible for poorer nations,'' according to a joint statement released by the NIH and the CDC this week. ''This is the fundamental fact which brought about the international call (by WHO) for research on alternative approaches.'' ''Developing nations are seeking a lower-cost and less intensive intervention ...to help prevent mother-to-infant HIV transmission,'' the two institutes argued, noting that the placebo control was chosen by poor countries themselves because ''it is the only approach that can be expected to produce a sufficiently clear response, in a reasonable time period, to the questions that must be answered: is the intervention safe and effective, and is it feasible in the developing world?'' ''People are doing these studies in poor countries because they can get away with it there,'' countered Dr. Stephen Bezruchka of the international health programme of the University of Washington in Seattle. ''They are not acceptable here.'' Critics of the experiments agree that researchers could address the ethical problem by providing longer and shorter AZT treatment to different groups, particularly in light of evidence dating back to 1994 when these studies began. More than one million children throughout the world have been infected with HIV through mother-to-infant transmission and WHO projections say a total of five to 10 million children - the vast majority in poor countries - will become infected in this decade. What also concerns Angell is that the HIV research is being defended in much the same way as the Tuskegee study in which the subjects were denied the best known treatment for syphilis. Supporters of the study argued that the subjects probably would not have been treated anyway and that the study was important for medical knowledge. (END/IPS/jl/mk/97) Origin: ROMAWAS/HEALTH-ETHICS/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:43:02 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: kolls567@qatar.net.qa, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: please.(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) Message-ID: <TFSKBDPE@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Basss I will finalize this issue with a typical wollof proverb=2E Ham na wai amoul HamHam=2E He knows but he does not have the knowledge=2E Many people do not know there is a difference between Ham (knowing) and =20 HamHam (knowledge) We know the difference=2E We in Gambia-l are NOT doing any thing illegal so we have nothing to =20 fear=2E Barry has a very point to make but all he had to do is sincerely advise =20 us that we should put our source at the end or beginning of the article =20 (per our Lawyers in the legal dept)=2E I hope that clears the air so let us proceed even with Barry =2EAll are =20 welcomed=2E Peace Habib -----Original Message----- From: kolls567@qatar=2Enet=2Eqa Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 12:09 PM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: RE: please=2E(Barry is a Trouble Maker!) << File: FILE0001=2EATT >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- Mr=2EGhanim! Thanks very much for your response! It turns out that BARRY MAHON is exactly what he was protesting that he wasn't: a Trouble Maker=2EIf he is =20= =20 on the PAYROLL of Reuters or Pana or whatever News Organisation he is part-timing for as an Intellectual Property Policeman,he would be well advised to register himself to another Chat Group and leave our this tiny =20= =20 and friendly Gambian group in peace=2E I believe Mr=2ETouray is a very smart Gambian,but I found it profoundly disturbing that at time when he was belittling the significance of =20 KNOWING that 10 or 20 people are ambushed in Cassamance,he was giving too much time on allaying the fears and petty moral concerns of someone (Barry Mahon) who has contributed almost nothing to the issues that are discussed here on the list=2EBarry should and must not be given the impression that he has the slightest moral authority to tell us what to =20 do or what not to do=2EIf he is that much in psychological need of being a head master,he should build himself a school somewhere in the United Kingdom,not far from the Reuters Headquarters,and teach British children =20 how morally reprehensible it is to Redistribute information collected by =20 Reuters without first getting clearance from its headquaters=2E For us(SeneGambians and friends of SeneGambia) to know the blood of how =20 many of our brethren was senselessly spilled in Cassamance carries a far more moral weight and cannot even be compared to the negligible risk we run by making such an information available for free=2EBut someone like =20 Barry would neither be able to grasp or feel that,would he?! Regards Bassss! ************************************ National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:47:12 -0500 From: hghanim@nusacc.org To: gajigoo@wabash.edu, gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: please. Message-ID: <TFSKCOOS@nusacc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable agreed but we need to let him/her know then proceed normally without any =20 ill feelings=2E Barry please correct me if our lawyers or myself are wrong and Thanks peace Habib -----Original Message----- From: gajigoo@wabash=2Eedu Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 12:34 PM To: gambia-l@u=2Ewashington=2Eedu Subject: RE: please=2E --------------------------------------------------------------------------= =20 -- Guys, Gambia-l is a discussion forum where people bring forth issues that are of concern to them=2E We may not agree with everyone's opinion but we should not tell anyone to leave the list because his comments are irritaing us=2E Ousman ********************************** National U=2ES=2E-Arab Chamber of Commerce 1100 New York Avenue, N=2EW=2E East Tower, Suite 550 Washington, D=2EC=2E 20005 Voice: (202) 289-5920 Fax: (202) 289-5938 Internet: http://www=2Enusacc=2Eorg/ ************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:11:47 +0200 From: momodou.camara@post3.tele.dk (Camara, Momodou) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: GambiaNet Progress Report 2 Message-ID: <19970923181236.AAA33318@LOCALNAME> We welcome the newest members of Gambia-L; the largest audience of Gambians and friends of the Gambia abroad. For those of you new members who may not be aware that we are in the process of getting a Gambian newspaper on the internet, we take this opportunity to inform you that a committee, out of this list, has been formed to undertake this formidable task. A while ago, a questionnaire which is readily available through the committee has been sent to every member of the list to ensure better quality service to all subscribers. From the results, we were able to confer that a $20.00 would suffice the expenses necessary to carry out this task on condition that we are able to mention the over 100 potential subscribers who have pledged to subscribe. Although there are quite a number of potential subscribers who have pledged to pay more than this amount. We have, now, successfully incorporated a Non-profit organization in the US called GambiaNet. During the last months we have been hosting trial issues of The Observer at http://www.xsite.net/~c3p0/observer. This site is one of the committee member's home page. Instead of being under a subsidiary of www.xsite.net, we have adopted a domain for GambiaNet. The domain name will be www.gambianet.org. Sometime ago we sent a request on the list seeking those with a background in law to join the Advisory Board to help us with legal issues. There was only one response to the posting. If you are someone with a legal background or studying law, and have the intention of joining GambiaNet, we ask that you kindly consider helping us by joining this Board and playing a vital role in this new exciting cyberspace venture! This initial request is for three members and the duties as stated in the Bylaws are purely advisory. If you are interested, please send a request to:latir@earthlink.net Please include a brief account of your professional background that also includes the number of years in the mentioned profession(s), and your current country of residence. Since our last update to the list: 1) We have been working on webpages of GambiaNet and the web site is essentially ready to be launched. The Observer Online pages will be password protected and only subscribers will have access to the Online issues. 2) The Observer is working on a couple of hardware and software upgrades to make the online service more reliable and efficient. 3) Contract is being drafted by GambiaNet team members. 4) A GambiaNet team member, namely Isatou Secka, is currently in the the Gambia and will be resuming the demo issue feed once she settles down. We hope to get other Gambian Papers such as Foroyaa and the Point once we have the Observer running smoothly. You can be included in our list of potential subscribers if you are interested. As mentioned above, it will only cost $20 (twenty US dollars) per year for membership and thereby, having access to a Gambian News paper Online. Just send a private mail to: mcamara@post3.tele.dk. Momodou Camara For GambiaNet Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:46:14 -0400 From: Latir Downes-Thomas <latir@earthlink.net> To: Gambia-L <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: [Fwd: NEW WHITE HOUSE AFRICA ADVISER CHARTS U.S. POLICY PRIORITIES] Message-ID: <342854C6.6BDD5E37@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2AF35915F39FD6FEB9D71741" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2AF35915F39FD6FEB9D71741 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------2AF35915F39FD6FEB9D71741 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Path: nntp.earthlink.net!iagnet.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!zdc!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!usenet From: USIA Newsgroups: zipnews.gov.world.regional.africa Subject: NEW WHITE HOUSE AFRICA ADVISER CHARTS U.S. POLICY PRIORITIES Date: 13 Sep 1997 09:46:27 -0700 Sender: root@linda.pathlink.com Approved: news@zippo.com Message-ID: <97091201-aaf-usia-gov.world.regional.africa-aaa@ZipNews.com> USIS Washington File 12 September 1997 NEW WHITE HOUSE AFRICA ADVISER CHARTS U.S. POLICY PRIORITIES (Aim is to build on African successes, says Wilson) (1160) By Jim Fisher-Thompson USIA Staff Writer WASHINGTON -- Joseph Wilson, President Bill Clinton's new adviser on African affairs, believes it is "the new breed of African entrepreneur" who will make possible the political and economic progress long denied the continent by strongman rule. Contrary to what some pessimists have said and written, "the real story in Africa is one of [political and economic] success over the last eight years," Wilson declared. The White House official made his remarks September 10 during a discussion on U.S. policy toward sub-Saharan Africa sponsored by the Constituency for Africa (CFA). Because of this trend toward democratization and open markets, Wilson said, he believes that "a blossoming of interest in Africa" is occurring among Americans and he pledged: "I intend to make myself as available to business constituencies -- businessmen -- who are prepared to invest in Africa as I make myself available to human rights and humanitarian relief organizations." Named adviser to the president and director of the Office of African Affairs in the National Security Council (NSC) last August, Wilson emphasized that "it is...Africans who will break down the barriers" to prosperity constructed over the years by dictators. "Our role in the process is as a partner," Wilson told his audience, "to assist Africans in finding African solutions to African problems. Every time we try to go beyond that we fail," he added. "Every time we try to impose Western democracy or our values on cultures that are vastly different from ours...we fail." The former ambassador to Gabon and Sao Tome and Principe has a wealth of experience in Africa, having served at seven different African posts. He noted that "there are tremendous value systems, social systems, customs, and cultures within Africa that are rich and have much to offer the development of their own political systems -- Africans need to build on that." Describing himself as a diplomat "who has been kicking around [working under] various dictatorships" throughout his foreign service career, Wilson said that when he returned to Africa in 1992 after a four-year absence, it was obvious that "some fundamental and positive changes had taken place on the continent." The media had expanded and were freer, he said, noting that in Gabon there was a thriving opposition press that did not hesitate to criticize the government or him. He recalled that "during presidential elections in Gabon one day, the government press came out and said: 'Ambassador Joe Wilson is a friend of the opposition and any foreign minister worth his or her salt would throw him out of the country in 24 hours.' The same day an opposition newspaper came out and said: 'Ambassador Joe Wilson spent yesterday afternoon, as he spends every afternoon, down in the private gymnasium of President Bongo lifting weights.'" Neither report was correct, Wilson said -- but the Gabonese media felt at liberty to write the stories, and "I make the point to show that there have been some fundamental freedoms that have been assimilated" on a continent that "has long been oppressed by a strongman syndrome and by the ongoing downward spiral of its economy and politics." Wilson, who is succeeding Susan Rice at the Council -- she has been nominated to replace former Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs George Moose -- noted that he plans to spend his time at the NSC "talking about and looking at how we can be partners with the continent of Africa as it moves through its transition." Central to that effort, Wilson said, is the White House's new "Partnership for Economic Growth and Opportunity in Africa," an initiative that seeks to place sub-Saharan Africa on the same trade footing with the United States as other regions of the world. Wilson said, "We are going to articulate that initiative and we hope it will be passed in the near future" by Congress. While the initiative provides for a $650 million investment fund for Africa, the White House official said, the money is not the point. "The bottom line of the initiative is that it will essentially attempt to define parameters that will inspire confidence by American and African entrepreneurs to develop the sort of relationship that can withstand political buffeting and the winds of the moment." The "catalyst" for a sustainable democracy in Africa is not so much diplomacy, Wilson said, as the people-to-people contacts that business dealings inspire. "What yields results," he explained, is the "deal an entrepreneur can put together that brings together American or Chinese products through an American corporation into Libreville or Abidjan. And, conversely, brings African products and services into the United States." In contrast, more traditional development aid has not produced results, Wilson said, noting that "for years Africa was a great beneficiary of U.S. development assistance." But "what have we seen as a consequence of that?" he asked. "Not much. It has not worked. It is time to look at other ways of doing business." On the positive side, Wilson added that "Africa has gone from one generation of leadership to another -- and I think that if the death of Mobutu [Sese Seko] symbolized anything," it is the trend away from strongman rule to leaders who see greater political participation for their people as the road to future prosperity. Wilson emphasized that the United States is prepared to work with Africa as a development partner. But he cautioned that "there are minimum standards of international behavior that have to be respected. And I would argue that those basic minimum standards include such things as transparency and a commitment to fight corruption." There are also "minimum management standards that have to be respected if one wishes to participate fully in the global economy of the 21st century," the diplomat added, which include "creation of an enabling environment to permit market solutions to be found to the daunting economic problems" of the continent. "I would also argue," said Wilson, that "perhaps the most profound change that we should encourage and support in Africa is the empowerment of women. Because if you look at the continent and spend time in the villages, you see that the most important economic, family, and social unit and workhorse of the village is the female." If this transition process in not understood or followed, if the trend toward open markets and democracy falters, Wilson warned, "Africa will be left behind and there will be nothing we can do as a government to prevent that. But what we can do as a government is to encourage Africans." Wilson concluded by saying: "My own belief is that by using a measured approach in the areas of democratic governance, regional security, trade, and investment, we can, in fact, together move forward into the 21st century and that Africa's tremendous population of 700 million people can realize its potential." --------------2AF35915F39FD6FEB9D71741-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:06:46 -0400 (EDT) From: ASJanneh@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: please. Message-ID: <970923220422_188558766@emout17.mail.aol.com> Gambia-l: I see no problem with one member suggesting that the other leave our "bantaba" for whatever reason. I would only be concerned if anyone is removed or expelled (highly unlikely on Gambia-l) for the views they espouse. Amadou

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