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Screensize: 640 x 480 800 x 600 1024 x 768 1280 x 1024 UserName: Password: Format Mode: Basic  Help  Prompt  Format: Videos: Font Andale Mono Arial Arial Black Book Antiqua Century Gothic Comic Sans MS Courier New Georgia Impact Lucida Console Script MT Bold Stencil Tahoma Times New Roman Trebuchet MS Verdana   Size 1 2 3 4 5 6   Color Black Red Yellow Pink Green Orange Purple Blue Beige Brown Teal Navy Maroon LimeGreen Message: * HTML is OFF * Forum Code is ON Smilies [quote][i]Originally posted by Momodou[/i] [br]Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:29:22 PST From: "Jainaba Diallo" <jai_diallo@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: My take.......... Message-ID: <19971120002925.6276.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Heidi, If you can't handle it, my only advice for you is: Please "baptize" your daughter....give her another name!!!! Jainaba. ********************************************************************* >Jainaba, >please stop quarreling in such an aggressive way with people on the >list. It really make me feel bad. Maybe it hits me even more because >you are my daughter's "toma". What used be a beautiful name to me is >about to become the name of a troublemaker. >Please, try some more peaceful ways of formulating your points. > >Heidi Skramstad > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:54:28 PST From: "Jainaba Diallo" <jai_diallo@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: White sports in White America.... Message-ID: <19971120005432.23582.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mr Njie, I am really flattered by your kind remarks below....all the same, thank you very much!!! I am glad to know that atleast there are some list members who ponder about what I write rather than attacking me unnecessarily. So I hereby grant you my consent to translate it. Enjoy the football game!!! Hope your team wins. I AM STILL ON MY FEET AND WILL REMAIN SO...HECKLERS OR NO HECKLERS!!! Very appreciative, Jainaba. ********************************************************************* Jai, Whatever the pundits on this list may mean about you, I for one recognize talent from a distance when I see one. Amid all the talk about RACE, which no ****** can run away from,especially in Babylon (however much we try to delude ourselves) I saw in the "White Sports in White America" a beautiful reflection of an African mind. It was only this morning on my way to work that I happened to read the piece, which had been in my bag for the past couple of days. When I put two and two together I realized that only a white mind (and a ****** mind - I know exactly where and when to use the word) can fail to see the literary beauty and potential in this magnificient piece. I plan to spend the rest of the evening (before the football match) translating the posting in Norwegian so that I can read it to my children during the weekend. I hereby request your permission to do so. I'll show it to my wife first thing when I get home! AND KEEP STANDING UP! A. Kabir Njie. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:30:58 PST From: "Jainaba Diallo" <jai_diallo@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Liberia on the US Message-ID: <19971120033058.19034.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >I have also wondered why "no US president had made a state visit to Africa >since 1978." I thought Hillary just returned from a trip to Uganda and some other countries in eastern and sounthern Africa(*grin*) :-) Cheerio, Jainaba. > >Please, don't tell me it is only because of security reasons. > >Regards, >Moe S. Jallow ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:14:53 -0500 From: M W Payne <awo@mindspring.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: color trouble.. Message-ID: <3473B93D.9BCF6EE5@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good day all, Sorry for the delay in answering Mr. Torstein's query, and addressing the other issues raised but, work has my hands tied, both day and night and I have just returned to my email, to find too many issues to respond to. I will try to respond to Mr. Torstein first. Mr. Torstein you wrote: >Could you please specify for an ignorant "toubab" like me >where I have tainted my views with racism?! >In order to learn and change you have to listen to advices from different >sources, so I would much apreciate it if you could enlighten >me on this. There is one string of comments which amplify your position on this issue. In your response to my Mr. Njie, you made some interesting statements. The exchange went as follows: >> Till this day blacks are attacked physically all over the "Western > > world" by dint of our colour. If the victims are lucky they come out of >> it alive. The day you are attacked physically in The Gambia/Africa it >> will be to be robbed because some poor criminal needs food to eat, not >> because of racial hatred. > I have no statistics to prove you otherwise, but the little I have heard from the US > is that a majority of dark skinned people are actually killed/attacked by other > dark skinned people?! Also there seems to be certain areas in the US where a person >with a light complexion really, really should not go?! What Mr. Njie was pointing out, was the difference in the motivations for crime. He did not say that crime was good in one case, and bad in the other, but he was pointing out what some of us know all too well. In short, he was stating that crimes based exclusively on race, were exclusively perpetrated by White people against people of color. The reverse is not true. In your response, you first reply with the non-sequitur, concerning violent crimes of "dark skinned people" against "other dark skinned people." This is undeniable, there are far too many violent crimes committed here, and certainly Black people assailing Black people is an issue. However, this has nothing to do with the issue. But, if this so called "Black on Black" crime is true, can the other side of the coin also be true? A proliferation of Black on White crime? If both are true, then one could come to no other conclusion from your argument that "dark skinned people" are inherently violent and evil. Is this not a racist notion? The idea that "there are certain areas in the US where a person with a light complexion really, really should not go" is a common ploy used by many White racists and conservatives here, to justify both White fear and police brutality within the Black communities and against Black people everywhere. However, this apprehension is baseless and without facts. Where are these areas? Harlem is one area which is often named. Well, in the late �80s, in a White area called Howard Beach, where a Black motorist ran out of gas (petro), and he and his passenger (another Black man) left the car to get something to eat before getting the fuel. The two were chased and beaten by a White mob, for being in their neighborhood. One of the men, in order to escape the mob, ran into traffic and was killed. The next day the news cameras were out doing their journalistic investigation, and went around asking (White) community residents about the matter. Many residents responded angrily, that they (the two Black men) shouldn't have been in the neighborhood, especially at night. "After all, we cannot go to and are not safe in Harlem!" Now, Harlem (not Haarlem) is a historic Black neighborhood in New York City of some 200,000 people (unless you include "Spanish Harlem, in which case you can add roughly another 100,000 to that figure). Although largely African American, there are people of all nationalities and regions living, and working within Harlem. White people live in Harlem (not many, but a number do), quite a number of White people work in Harlem, and this much maligned community has not shown any incident of color hatred, manifested through an attack on a White person on the basis of his hue. The singular incident which I could recall which peripherally supports your claim, was the isolated case, after the verdict in the infamous trial of eight White police officers, who were caught on video tape beating the hell out of a Black motorist who was speeding. The tape clearly showed that the Black man, Rodney King, was on the ground, and eight police officers, were getting their daily exercise, by viciously clubbing the grounded Rodney King. There was no resistence; there was no provocation by the hapless King, however the man was beaten to a pulp, and then the police proceeded to beat the pulp! As a result of the videotape, the officers were brought to trial, however the case was moved from the jurisdiction of the incident to an all White community in California. The all White jury, in the face of all the evidence - including the video tape, acquitted the White officers. This signaled a rage within the Black community, that even in the face of irrefutable evidence, that justice would not be served. Unfortunately, this rage manifested itself in the wanton, and random beating of any White person within reach. An innocent White man, Reginald Denny, was dragged out of his vehicle, and beaten unmercifully, by a Black mob. This, is the only case, which I can recall, that a White person was ever beaten on the basis of his race. All of this is to say, that under normal circumstances there is no record of "Black racism" as you would like us to believe. But your racism prevails, when you provoke unwarranted fear of Black people (in the USA) based on color, when the circumstances do not warrant it. >> I really need to ask, why should the expression of pride in one's people be source of >> irritation >> for someone else???? >So then it is Okey for me to say, horrray, a WHITE man just beat Tyson or Carl Lewis or >whoever >because "WHITES" are MY people?!? In a historical context, one could never equate the two scenarios, precisely because Black participation has traditionally been excluded from such activities. White participation has not, So there is nothing new to White participation and therefore White winning. Once again, you overlook and ignore, the historical and contemporary context of these responses. Perhaps, because White people have always had high visibility in the record books, history books, and any other book you can think of, you do not have a sense of urgency. However, as the statements of either: Black inferiority, or general lack of fitness of Black people for anything worth merit, one by one fall down, through the efforts and achievements of People of Color, I and others will cheer these achievements and cheer them LOUDLY and WITHOUT APOLOGY!!! If you do not cheer, then that is your right; I understand it quite well; in fact, I wouldn't expect you to cheer. In 1936, the Black man Jesse Owens proudly knocked down some "Aryan" notions of racial superiority in the heart of Nazi Germany, by defeating the best that the "Aryan" nation had to offer, by winning four gold medals. Millions cheered that achievement (and continue to cheer similar accomplishments until tomorrow.) Of course, there are also millions who jeered and lamented that achievement (and continue to jeer and lament similar accomplishments until the twelfth of never.) Whereas Jesse Owens's victory over these peculiar ethnic notions did not imply Black athletic superiority over White people, a notion which you seem to want to ascribe to those of us who dare cheer Black achievement; but it did serve to knock down a myth of Black inferiority in one arena of life (with implications extending to other arenas.) When the Brown Bomber, Joe Louis, defeated Max Schmeling, he not only defeated another boxer, but he kicked the butt of a racist theory of White supremacy. The reverse has never been true, because Blacks have never been in similar positions of power on a global basis. You see Mr. Torstein, the idea of racism revolves around the issue of power and how that power influences collective behavior. Blacks have never been in such positions of power to influence collective behavior, while the recognition you receive as "toubab" has nothing to do with either power or behavior. In looking at television in the 1960s, (before you were born) many of us cheered the few times we saw a Black person momentarily appear on the television screen for the brief quarter of a second that he or she would appear in a television commercial. I can remember those experiences vividly! Why? Because we were traditionally excluded from participation in the larger society, nationally, and globally, on the basis of color! Was this exclusion a situation of our (read, our = Black people's) creation? I think that even you should see the point here. Again, the issues of power and behavior arise. My annoyance stems from the fact that as we react to situations which have been thrust upon us, you feel threatened because some of us feel a sense of solidarity, based upon common experiences of oppression and the melanin we have in common. >> And then, why should I allow someone else to define for me, with whom I collectively >> identify? > I will defend to my death your right to define anything you like, but as a consept my > personal > belief is > that it is not the best way to make peace among people from around the world. Oh, I see, and you are saying that any sense of Black solidarity is responsible for that lack of peace? Yeah, right! This is a common ploy utilized by those who are not concerned with our best interest; "Blame the victim for being victimized." And any attempt to break out of the cycle of victimization, meets with the criticism of those who benefit from our subordinate position. >> If Mr. Torstein has a problem with expressions of Black pride or the expression of a >> positive Black >> identity, then I suggest that is his problem, and that he has some issues, that he has to >> resolve. >A positive black identity?, where the important thing is that "MY COLOR" beat the bad >"WHITE" >people?!? That is interesting. According to my understanding of your response there can be nothing like a positive Black identity. Furthermore, I see that you have a problem of interpretation. I don't remember characterizing events like you have. Why did you use the adjective "bad" to characterize "WHITE people?" Is this something that I have actually written on this list in the above context? Or is this a creation of your own mind? I would suggest "you look before you [make the inductive] leap" This is your characterization, not mine. If one were to follow your characterization, then any team or individual whom I support, would be contesting against an evil or "bad" opponent. So, when I cheer an individual (whom I support), then it is obviously because the opponent was a bad and nasty team or individual. Does this reasoning makes sense to you? >> After all, to categorize on ANY LEVEL is to be exclusionary to some group in the world. >> The >> Olympics is a vehicle for the type of pride expressed on a national level. Are the >> Olympics, or >> the type of pride which the Olympics foster wrong? >You just said it my friend, the olympics being a big, wonderful mix of people from around >the world >of any >color nuance competing on the basis of skills and talent and really not "COLOR"!!! Again, thank you for conveniently missing the point. In the Olympics, people compete on the basis of skill, training, and NATIONALITY. Nationality is a category which, can be and is framed to be inclusive of some, but excludes others. Is this a problem for you? Probably not if I remember some of your earlier posts correctly. You don't mind categorization on any other level than color. People cheer for national pride in the Olympics. Team members cheer on fellow team members, not because of the INTRINSIC qualities each individual team member has, but because they are TEAM MEMBERS! Well, for me one team I am proud to belong to is the team, which wears the Black suits all day long, even if there are some disgruntled team members who do not consider themselves to be part of the team. That goes with the territory. And by the way, the paragraph you are referencing looks at the sources of pride within the Olympics, not the idea of the bases of competition. >> Typically, quite a number White people throughout the world have always felt threatened >> when Black >> people express pride in themselves. >I feel treathened by violent people, ignorant people, people with guns, fanatic people >and people without humor, but you can beat your chest as much as you like for me, >I will evaluate you by the things you do and not your "COLOR". And that is fine. I will recognize you by whatever distinguishing characteristic you possess, not by ignoring them. You keep confusing recognition, with evaluation, which are not the same. Admittedly, one could simultaneously recognize and evaluate any phenomenon one chooses, however, this is not necessarily the case. In an earlier post I seem to recall (and I am sure that you will correct me if I am wrong) that you mentioned your resentment to people or children, specifically (I forget which one, and have deleted that post) who see you and refer to you as "Toubab" This is the point of recognition for the people who greet you as so. There is no evaluation of your character on the basis of this designation. After all, neither your name nor your nationality are printed on your forehead for all to see and read, so no one can refer to you in that manner, if they first meet you or develop nothing more than a passing acquaintance with you. It is ridiculous for me to reference "that fruit" when I want to refer to an orange in a bowl of apples. The orange in the midst of apples serves as its own reference! Your whiteness in a land of Black people is a distinguishing characteristic. No rocket scientist needed here. Like it or not, that is the reality. It is not a comment on your character or personality, it is a comment on your appearance. Period. >> For Black people to express this type of pride is not demeaning to others, as both of you >> would >> suggest, but rather, is the result of numerous historical processes. >I am humble and sometimes depressed in the face of history, but for myself I make my >own >reputation, and will speak up if people use my skincolor to define me. That, again, is a problem with which you will have to live. It is either silly or extremely naive to think that we arrive and act in the world independently of historic events or global social forces. We are shaped by such events and forces, just as we play a part in shaping history and society. >> If I express a love for my wife, does it demean other women??? I hope not!!! The >> Torstein argument >> is the same argument that I have heard time without number, coming from White people of >> various >> backgrounds (most NOT well intentioned) and a number of "liberal" Black folks, as to >> why there >> should be, for instance, Black Studies or Black History? The answer to that question is, >> all >> things being equal, that there should not be such programs. However, as we all know, All >> Things >> Are Not Equal! These programs, as well as the expression of Black pride are the historic >> result of >> the exclusion of the voices of Black people and their experiences in the larger arena. >> Now, when >> Black people get a voice, you try to silence that voice, on the alleged basis of being >> offensive to >> some people? >> M W Payne > So the important thing here is to voice out color segregation but the other way? > Should not the voice of opressed people fighting against colordiffences, be to > fight against evaluating people based on color??! Mr. Torstein, God created color differences, not me. I have no problem with the differences, as there is nothing wrong with the varieties of human existence. Human beings however recognize and acknowledge those differences (again, nothing wrong here), and may act upon those differences (there is a possibility of foul play). My point is, that whereas you are prepared to deny the obvious, I am NOT, because it is not inherently value laden. Different doesn't necessarily mean better; it doesn't necessarily mean worse. It simply means DIFFERENT. To express what is visibly apparent is not the same thing as segregation. You should try to recognize the difference. I am not sure if you are ashamed of your color, but my thought is not to ignore it, but to acknowledge it and move on. The history of my color travels with me, and speaks volumes of history, both aloud and in whispers. It also speaks to the treatment I will receive in many situations around the world. You and I walking the same path and going into the same facilities, will receive different treatment, not because of our different characters, or by anything that is intrinsically good or evil about any one of us, but rather because of the physical appearance. I cannot bury my head in the sand and act as if, color doesn't matter. My denial can cost me my dignity or my life; and has done so for my people in the past, in the present, and unfortunately, most probably in the future. Right here in the good ol' US of A, a number of Black people (regardless of nationality, character, educational background, or any of the host of characteristics you would insist that we examine first) have lost their lives, simply because of their skin color. I have personally experienced dogs that are trained to bark at and attack Black people exclusively!!! So, please don't lecture me, or attempt to tell me how to approach life. You are far too young and inexperienced to do that. >Best Regards, > Torstein > The Gambia > BTW: if you look to the left on your keyboard, > there is a "caps lock" function there that you > might have overlooked. Young man, other than this short remark, I will not respond to the above trifling comment. I have no desire to stoop to that level, and I suggest we move to a higher plane of discussion/disagreement. Thank you, God bless and may you all have a good day! M W Payne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:34:05 -0500 (EST) From: KTouray@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: suggestion Message-ID: <971120003404_-53874598@mrin39> The past few months have been very rough on the Gambians in the U.S.A .from immigration problems to death, some of us have been going through a rough time: it is my understanding that the immigration has raided some restaurants and unfortunately some of the people detained are our own blood. I have also realised that 4 gambians have passed away and family members partly depended on us tto contribute some money to send the deceased home for proper burial. Having thinking about all this, it occurred me that with the joint effort of everyone in this country, we can easily send deceased home. i think if we set up a foundation by making monthly or yearly contribution and holding at least quarterly meetings we will be well informed of what is happening to all of us and therefore help out with things that need to be taken care of.I know that it is not as easy as it seems, but a little time from everyone can make it happen. This is just a suggestion and i will be very happy to hear your points of view as we all know that two minds are better than one.I am willing to work with anybody on this and hoping that we will all participate in it. We all know that as inevitable as death is we will not want a close friend to be kept in the morgue waiting for money to be sent home for burial let alone ourselves or a family member.So please let us work together since this is something beyond our control. This does not have to be for only people in MD, anyone is welcome to be part of it. After all we can always transfer funds from one bank to another and therefore state to another. I am expecting replies from all and feel free to call me on (301)565-9427 if you would rather talk about it. thank you all, Fatou Sanyang. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:47:41 PST From: "Jainaba Diallo" <jai_diallo@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: color trouble.. Message-ID: <19971120054741.10120.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain M W Payne, Thank you very much for the well thought-out, well illustrated response to Torstein. The time and effort you put into it was certainly well spent. It was quite refreshing to read...I owe you one!!! As our mutual brother would say, "keep up the good work down there". God bless and have a good day too! Jainaba. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:41:26 -0500 (EST) From: MJawara@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re:tragic death - Cash Reward Message-ID: <971120024125_595386827@mrin38> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.18494.mrin38.880011685" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.18494.mrin38.880011685 Content-ID: <0_18494_880011685@mrin38.1707> Content-type: text/plain In a message dated 97-11-18 23:10:04 EST, you wrote: << We were told one Gambian group gave one thousand dollars today. May allah bless them and all who helped out. >> Monday Nov.17, The Gambian Support Group made a cash donation of $ 1000.00 to the family of the deceased, Ms.Aji Sowe.A delegation of 5 members led by the Chairman of the Group, Mr. Dembo Drammeh made the donation on behalf of the organization.At the emergency meeting held on sunday Nov. 16, it was also decided to offer a cash reward of $ 1000.00 ( $ 500.00 from the organizaton and $ 500.00 total amount pledged by individual members ) to anyone with information on the suspect. He's a fugitive and may or may not be in the U.S.If you've any information, please call the Montgomery County Police, MD or your local law enforcement agency.If your info. leads to the arrest and conviction of the suspect, you'll receive the cash reward. Herewith attached is a picture of the suspect.Hopefully, everyone will be able to download the pic. without any problem. In the wake of two unfortunate and high profile domestic violence cases, The Gambian Support Group will be hosting a family oriented town - meeting to discuss marital and other social issues.Hopefully, we wouldn't look too far for speakers and counselors.There're Gambians with reputable character and hold responsible positions...Medical Doctors, Professors, Senior Economists at the World Bank and the I.M.F., Religious leaders, business men / women ... ..Also to be included to the list of speakers is a representative of the Montgomery County Police , Domestic Violence Unit. To those Gambians in the Washington Metropolitan Area, stay tuned... Musa K. Jawara. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:54:00 +0100 From: amadou.kabir.njie@nsw.no To: Gambia-L@u.washington.edu Subject: Help! Message-ID: <3473efef.narud@relay.nsw.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=body.txt Can the list managers be so kind as to remove temporarily the = subscription of Amadou.Kabir.Njie@Aviaplan.no. Note! I presently receivie two copies of each posting to Gambia-L as all mail = = to the above address is auto-forwarded to my current address at = Amadou.Kabir:njie@nsw.no.(Please do not remove this one!!!; just the = above) Before I return to that address sometime in January I'll request a = resubscription. Thanks. PS Modou Camara, did you read the mails I posted to you. I didn't realize = you were in The Gambia when sent them. Hoping to hear from you when you = = are less busy. Maybe you can carry out the above request personally. A. Kabir Njie. = --------------------------------------------------------------------- amadou.kabir.njie@nsw.no Narud Stokke Wiig AS R=E5dhusgt. 27 N-0158 OSLO NORWAY Tel: +47 22 33 06 70 Fax: +47 22 41 45 01 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:52:44 GMT+1 From: "Heidi Skramstad" <heidis@amadeus.cmi.no> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: 1993 Census Message-ID: <D51AF353BDF@amadeus.cmi.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello Moe, > > Does anyone have (or know where I could get) the latest Census report for > > the Gambia. Any year after 1990 would be fine. I need ASAP. You can get them at Central Statistics Department, Ministry of Finance and Economic Affairs, Buckle Street. The 1993 Census is printed in several smaller reports and they sell them at 30 D + postage. I have some of them, but since I don't know what ASAP is, I don't know if it is included. Regards Heidi Skramstad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:05:49 +0300 From: "BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH" <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: color trouble.. Message-ID: <01bcf5a4$42ace500$aa2385c2@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mr.Payne! That was great analysis! I have learnt a lot; so thank you and keep up the good work down there! Regards Bassss! -----Original Message----- From: M W Payne <awo@mindspring.com> To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Date: 20/���/1418 01:11 � Subject: Re: color trouble.. Good day all, When the Brown Bomber, Joe Louis, defeated Max Schmeling, he not only defeated another boxer, but he kicked the butt of a racist theory of White supremacy. The reverse has never been true, because Blacks have never been in similar positions of power on a global basis. You see Mr. Torstein, the idea of racism revolves around the issue of power and how that power influences collective behavior. Blacks have never been in such positions of power to influence collective behavior, while the recognition you receive as "toubab" has nothing to do with either power or behavior. Again, thank you for conveniently missing the point. In the Olympics, people compete on the basis of skill, training, and NATIONALITY. Nationality is a category which, can be and is framed to be inclusive of some, but excludes others. Is this a problem for you? Probably not if I remember some of your earlier posts correctly. You don't mind categorization on any other level than color. People cheer for national pride in the Olympics. Team members cheer on fellow team members, not because of the INTRINSIC qualities each individual team member has, but because they are TEAM MEMBERS! Well, for me one team I am proud to belong to is the team, which wears the Black suits all day long, even if there are some disgruntled team members who do not consider themselves to be part of the team. That goes with the territory. And by the way, the paragraph you are referencing looks at the sources of pride within the Olympics, not the idea of the bases of competition. >> Typically, quite a number White people throughout the world have always felt threatened >> when Black >> people express pride in themselves. >I feel treathened by violent people, ignorant people, people with guns, fanatic people >and people without humor, but you can beat your chest as much as you like for me, >I will evaluate you by the things you do and not your "COLOR". And that is fine. I will recognize you by whatever distinguishing characteristic you possess, not by ignoring them. You keep confusing recognition, with evaluation, which are not the same. Admittedly, one could simultaneously recognize and evaluate any phenomenon one chooses, however, this is not necessarily the case. In an earlier post I seem to recall (and I am sure that you will correct me if I am wrong) that you mentioned your resentment to people or children, specifically (I forget which one, and have deleted that post) who see you and refer to you as "Toubab" This is the point of recognition for the people who greet you as so. There is no evaluation of your character on the basis of this designation. After all, neither your name nor your nationality are printed on your forehead for all to see and read, so no one can refer to you in that manner, if they first meet you or develop nothing more than a passing acquaintance with you. It is ridiculous for me to reference "that fruit" when I want to refer to an orange in a bowl of apples. The orange in the midst of apples serves as its own reference! Your whiteness in a land of Black people is a distinguishing characteristic. No rocket scientist needed here. Like it or not, that is the reality. It is not a comment on your character or personality, it is a comment on your appearance. Period. >> For Black people to express this type of pride is not demeaning to others, as both of you >> would >> suggest, but rather, is the result of numerous historical processes. >I am humble and sometimes depressed in the face of history, but for myself I make my >own >reputation, and will speak up if people use my skincolor to define me. That, again, is a problem with which you will have to live. It is either silly or extremely naive to think that we arrive and act in the world independently of historic events or global social forces. We are shaped by such events and forces, just as we play a part in shaping history and society. Mr. Torstein, God created color differences, not me. I have no problem with the differences, as there is nothing wrong with the varieties of human existence. Human beings however recognize and acknowledge those differences (again, nothing wrong here), and may act upon those differences (there is a possibility of foul play). My point is, that whereas you are prepared to deny the obvious, I am NOT, because it is not inherently value laden. Different doesn't necessarily mean better; it doesn't necessarily mean worse. It simply means DIFFERENT. To express what is visibly apparent is not the same thing as segregation. You should try to recognize the difference. I am not sure if you are ashamed of your color, but my thought is not to ignore it, but to acknowledge it and move on. The history of my color travels with me, and speaks volumes of history, both aloud and in whispers. It also speaks to the treatment I will receive in many situations around the world. You and I walking the same path and going into the same facilities, will receive different treatment, not because of our different characters, or by anything that is intrinsically good or evil about any one of us, but rather because of the physical appearance. I cannot bury my head in the sand and act as if, color doesn't matter. My denial can cost me my dignity or my life; and has done so for my people in the past, in the present, and unfortunately, most probably in the future. Right here in the good ol' US of A, a number of Black people (regardless of nationality, character, educational background, or any of the host of characteristics you would insist that we examine first) have lost their lives, simply because of their skin color. I have personally experienced dogs that are trained to bark at and attack Black people exclusively!!! So, please don't lecture me, or attempt to tell me how to approach life. You are far too young and inexperienced to do that. Thank you, God bless and may you all have a good day! M W Payne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:33:26 +0000 From: S Njie <S.Njie@commonwealth.int> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Subscription of New Member Message-ID: <9E03E33001D23A00@commonwealth.int> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List Manager, Could you please add Kebba B. J arju on the list. His address is : africa re@compuserve.com Thanks, S.G. N'jie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:13:03 -0600 From: Tamsir Mbai <mba4224@etbu.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: color trouble.. Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971120055218.39cf957a@etbu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mr Payne, My hat off to you. Facts, rather than innuendoes should be the basis for our debates. While i don't agree with everything you said, i salute with vehement excitement your oratory, which at the very least was diligent, yet concise to the point of a vertex. The historical and other social facts you cited are beyond reproach. Excellent piece!!!!! Mr Torstein, i personally think you are a well-intentioned person and i agree that "color" should not be the basis with which to judge other people, but like Mr Payne said, that is to deny the obvious. History is what shapes this world. We either play the cards we are dealt by nature or risk being traitors to our very existence. To both of you, keep the high spirits alive. Once again Mr Payne, congratulations on a magnificently crafted article. I just couldn't shut up on this one. It was too good to go by unnoticed. Peace! It's Tamsir. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:57:12 PST From: "Momodou Camara" <nijii@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu, njies@commonwealth.int Subject: Re: Subscription of New Member Message-ID: <19971120115712.8367.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain > >Dear List Manager, > >Could you please add Kebba B. J arju on the list. > >His address is : > >africa re@compuserve.com > >Thanks, > >S.G. N'jie > Mr.Njie, The email address seems to be incorrect because there should not be a space in the address. Please check with him or ask him to send a subscription request to: 1. listproc@u.washington.edu 2.In the message area, he should write: subscribe Gambia-L Kebba B.J Jarju Note: The subject should be blank regards Momodou ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:03:48 -0500 From: nahak@juno.com (Michael J Gomez) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Message-ID: <19971120.080350.3382.0.nahak@juno.com> Listmanager, please unsubscribe Michael Gomez. at this e-mail address: mbg@guinness.som.cwru.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:46:47 -0000 From: "pmj@commit.gm" <gambia-l@commit.gm> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: color trouble.. Message-ID: <B0000017781@south.commit.gm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent by "Pa Musa Jallow" <pmj@commit.gm> via Commit Dear Mr Payne & fellow G-llers, I am just writing a quick commendation on a superb, genuine and heartfelt piece. Sir, I think you have said it all, our so-called black nationalism is not against other folks, it is as you rightly said, us sharing our common experience mostly derived from our common heritage, the melanin in our skin. Again thanks for a superb piece, it was good for all of us and hopefully gives the perspective in which our struggle should be viewed. Musa ----------ps Sir in wollof, we say there are two things about a human being, "hel" and " ham-ham" that is literally..good sense or sensible and knowledge.. now some people have good sense or are sensible,"( in wollof "am hel") others have knowledge mostly learnt through schooling, training or experience, (am ham-ham) but some are endowed by The Almighty with Sense & Knowledge ( AM Hel ack HamHam) and in my humble opinion, you Sir, have been endowed with hel and hamham ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:25:14 PST From: "Gassamaba omar" <kassama@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: New Member Message-ID: <19971120132515.12251.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Dear list managers, could anyone add brother Sarjo Marenah to the list please<smarenah@hotmail.com> Alabaraka WAS SALAAM gassamaba ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:31:11 -0800 From: Habib Ghanim <hghanim@erols.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Cc: "c:netscapeMAILSent"@smtp3.erols.com Subject: Re: suggestion Message-ID: <347465CF.3CE2@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KTouray@aol.com wrote: > > The past few months have been very rough on the Gambians in the U.S.A .from > immigration problems to death, some of us have been going through a rough > time: it is my understanding that the immigration has raided some restaurants > and unfortunately some of the people detained are our own blood. I have also > realised that 4 gambians have passed away and family members partly depended > on us tto contribute some money to send the deceased home for proper burial. > Having thinking about all this, it occurred me that with the joint effort of > everyone in this country, we can easily send deceased home. i think if we set > up a foundation by making monthly or yearly contribution and holding at least > quarterly meetings we will be well informed of what is happening to all of us > and therefore help out with things that need to be taken care of.I know that > it is not as easy as it seems, but a little time from everyone can make it > happen. > This is just a suggestion and i will be very happy to hear your points of > view as we all know that two minds are better than one.I am willing to work > with anybody on this and hoping that we will all participate in it. > We all know that as inevitable as death is we will not want a close friend to > be kept in the morgue waiting for money to be sent home for burial let alone > ourselves or a family member.So please let us work together since this is > something beyond our control. > This does not have to be for only people in MD, anyone is welcome to be part > of it. After all we can always transfer funds from one bank to another and > therefore state to another. > I am expecting replies from all and feel free to call me on (301)565-9427 if > you would rather talk about it. > thank you all, Fatou Sanyang.Fatou This is an excellent idea that I have been tryibg to push especially for the cases of death for over twenty (yes -twenty) years in the DC area. We have had cases in the early seventies occationally but it seems now to be on a more frequent basis. I have brought up the idea of just death insurance to cover the funeral expenses alone. Ironically whenot comes to weddings or parties we in the Gambian community do not have difficulty to raise funds but in cases of death or immigration we all suddenly do not have money. Why? Ousainu Mbenger and a few others have requested that we have a meeting of this nature but it never materializes . Maybe this time with the younger generation's help it may happen. Peace Habib ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:39:50 -0800 From: Habib Ghanim <hghanim@erols.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Cc: "c:netscapeMAILSent"@smtp3.erols.com Subject: Re: tragic death - Cash Reward Message-ID: <347467D6.6D9A@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MJawara@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-11-18 23:10:04 EST, you wrote: > > << We were told one Gambian group gave one thousand dollars today. May allah > bless them and all who helped out. >> > > Monday Nov.17, The Gambian Support Group made a cash donation of $ 1000.00 to > the family of the deceased, Ms.Aji Sowe.A delegation of 5 members led by the > Chairman of the Group, Mr. Dembo Drammeh made the donation on behalf of the > organization.At the emergency meeting held on sunday Nov. 16, it was also > decided to offer a cash reward of $ 1000.00 ( $ 500.00 from the organizaton > and $ 500.00 total amount pledged by individual members ) to anyone with > information on the suspect. He's a fugitive and may or may not be in the > U.S.If you've any information, please call the Montgomery County Police, MD > or your local law enforcement agency.If your info. leads to the arrest and > conviction of the suspect, you'll receive the cash reward. > Herewith attached is a picture of the suspect.Hopefully, everyone will be > able to download the pic. without any problem. > > In the wake of two unfortunate and high profile domestic violence cases, The > Gambian Support Group will be hosting a family oriented town - meeting to > discuss marital and other social issues.Hopefully, we wouldn't look too far > for speakers and counselors.There're Gambians with reputable character and > hold responsible positions...Medical Doctors, Professors, Senior Economists > at the World Bank and the I.M.F., Religious leaders, business men / women ... > .Also to be included to the list of speakers is a representative of the > Montgomery County Police , Domestic Violence Unit. > To those Gambians in the Washington Metropolitan Area, stay tuned... > > Musa K. Jawara. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------Thanks for your help and please let me know where and when so I can pass the word around to the Gambia Muslim Association. Habib Diab Ghanim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:33:45 -0500 (EST) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: 1993 Census Message-ID: <9711201533.AA25218@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Hello Moe, > > > > Does anyone have (or know where I could get) the latest Census report for > > > the Gambia. Any year after 1990 would be fine. I need ASAP. > You can get them at Central Statistics Department, Ministry of Finance and Economic > Affairs, Buckle Street. The 1993 Census is printed in several smaller > reports and they sell them at 30 D + postage. I have some of them, > but since I don't know what ASAP is, I don't know if it is included. > > Regards > Heidi Skramstad Thank you for the information. I have contacted a friend in the Gambia who will get it from the ministry and mail it to me. I was hoping that someone in the US might have copies they can fax to me since I need it sooner. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I just meant to say AS SOON AS POSSIBLE (ASAP). If you can help further, please let me know via private mail. Regards, Moe S. Jallow =========================================================================== mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:46:04 -0500 (EST) From: fatima phall <fphall1@gl.umbc.edu> To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: lets' do it Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.971120113138.17524A-100000@umbc8.umbc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Gambia-Lers, I totally agree with Fatou Sanyang's suggestion. We should set up a foundation" asap" for the Gambian people. If we think about the amount money generated from parties like, ALD,New year's e.t.c., we could definitely do it.Think about this for a moment please, if we don't attend any of the above parties unless the money generated is going towards our goal, we'll be leading in the right direction. Remember these tragedies could happen to anyone's family when you least expect it. Let's do something fast and soon. Anybody interested should please let us know. Thanks, Fatima. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:16:31 -0800 From: Habib Ghanim <hghanim@erols.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Cc: "c:netscapeMAILSent"@smtp3.erols.com Subject: Re: lets' do it Message-ID: <34749A9F.2843@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fatima phall wrote: > > Hi Gambia-Lers, > > I totally agree with Fatou Sanyang's suggestion. We should set up a > foundation" asap" for the Gambian people. If we think about the amount > money generated from parties like, ALD,New year's e.t.c., we could > definitely do it.Think about this for a moment please, if we don't attend > any of the above parties unless the money generated is going towards > our goal, we'll be leading in the right direction. Remember these > tragedies could happen to anyone's family when you least expect it. Let's do something > fast and soon. Anybody interested should please let us know. > Thanks, > Fatima.Yes Fatima," Lets do it "( I think that seems to be a good theme ) I mean a mission statement for this purpose. No offense but when we have parties thousands of dollars are spent lavishly and many people show in short notice. Maybe a bi annual special joint fundraising effort by the Gambia Muslim Assn and the Gambia Support group( & Gambia ADL group -etc) at an Idependent location is the answer. Habib Thanks for your personal e mail . I deleted by mistake. i will reply you seperately later. Do you hear from Mam Sait Jagne??? Habib ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:51:48 -0500 (EST) From: Musa Sowe <chemsm@panther.Gsu.EDU> To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971120134842.17506A-100000@panther.Gsu.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If any one (from the U.S) would be interested in teaching physics,chemistry, biology or math in The Gambia during spring 1998 please contact me at my private mail for details. Thanks .........Musa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:05:15 -0500 (EST) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: lets' do it Message-ID: <9711201905.AA57644@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Let's do it! That would be wonderful. Please, Let me in on it. Regards, Moe S. Jallow > > Fatima.Yes Fatima," Lets do it "( I think that seems to be a good theme ) I mean > a mission statement for this purpose. > Habib ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:31:30 -0500 (EST) From: "N'Deye Marie N'Jie" <njie.1@osu.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: lets' do it Message-ID: <199711202031.PAA04935@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fatima: I think raising funds for these purposes is an excellent idea. Realistically, parties are a good way to raise funds. Why not work with all these gambian groups -- ALD, 4th of July, Labor Day, and the Muslim Association, among others to donate a percentage of their profits to the foundation. Any Gambian group in the US who plans social events on a regular basis should be able to donate some of those profits. It would be for a good cause, and gambians and their friends all over the country would be contributing something. Of course, this should not be limited to the US alone. Peace, N'Deye Marie At 12:16 PM 11/20/97 -0800, you wrote: >fatima phall wrote: >> >> Hi Gambia-Lers, >> >> I totally agree with Fatou Sanyang's suggestion. We should set up a >> foundation" asap" for the Gambian people. If we think about the amount >> money generated from parties like, ALD,New year's e.t.c., we could >> definitely do it.Think about this for a moment please, if we don't attend >> any of the above parties unless the money generated is going towards >> our goal, we'll be leading in the right direction. Remember these >> tragedies could happen to anyone's family when you least expect it. Let's do something >> fast and soon. Anybody interested should please let us know. >> Thanks, >> Fatima.Yes Fatima," Lets do it "( I think that seems to be a good theme ) I mean >a mission statement for this purpose. >No offense but when we have parties thousands of dollars are spent >lavishly and many people show in short notice. Maybe a bi annual special >joint fundraising effort by the Gambia Muslim Assn and the Gambia Support >group( & Gambia ADL group -etc) at an Idependent location is the answer. >Habib >Thanks for your personal e mail . I deleted by mistake. i will reply you >seperately later. Do you hear from Mam Sait Jagne??? >Habib > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:23:14 PST From: "NJAGA JAGNE" <jagnen25@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: color trouble.. Message-ID: <19971120212314.12370.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Good day all, >Sorry for the delay in answering Mr. Torstein's query, and addressing the= > other issues raised but, work >has my hands tied, both day and night and I have just returned to my emai= >l, to find too many issues to >respond to. I will try to respond to Mr. Torstein first. >Mr. Torstein you wrote: > > >Could you please specify for an ignorant "toubab" like me > >where I have tainted my views with racism?! > >In order to learn and change you have to listen to advices from different > >sources, so I would much apreciate it if you could enlighten > >me on this. > >There is one string of comments which amplify your position on this issue= ........................... THANK YOU MR PAYNE........ you have given me more and more reason to believe that thare are stiil people on this list who are able to argue intellectually on issues and not get personal. to me, you carried accross your points much better than anyone could have done when you put aside your emotions and used your intellect. if this is not good enough to persuade mr Torstein that the word "toubab" has no inherent racial hatred or meaning in it, then i guess he is gonna be uncomfortable for a long time living in the gambia. i would like to challenge mr Torstein to ask the children or anybody in the gambia who should call him a toubab, what racism is, or what they mean by toubab. i suggest that you interact more with the gambians at home, sit and drink attaya with the boys, go to our "ngentehs" and check out the "farooto taa laalu", and you may begin to see where we are coming from. it is right there under your nose. If you need any more clarification, you can consult with heidi.....even if she is not in the gambia now, she knows what a "kankurang jafoo", "nyaakaato", and "solimaa" is. don't forget to SMILLLLEEEE!!!!! ********AND i use the caps lock at my discretion************* this is NNNJJJJAAAAGGGAA.. THE jagnen in kentucky. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:23:15 -0500 (EST) From: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: lets' do it Message-ID: <199711202123.QAA03945@oak.mtu.edu> Content-Type: text I think this is an idea whichlong overdue. However, it will be important that we consider all options before we get into it. Earlier on Dr Kamara in Seatle forwarded something on life insurance .. I will suggest that a team be set up to review the various suggestions and come up with reccommendations. Malanding Jaiteh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:05:33 -0500 (EST) From: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Cc: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh) Subject: Education Committee Progress report Message-ID: <199711202205.RAA03956@oak.mtu.edu> Content-Type: text On behalf of members of the education support plan draft committee, I would like to welcome new members and send condolences to families of the two young Gambians we lost during the past week. For the benefit of our newest members, some months ago a few members volunteered to work on a proposal on aiding education in the Gambia(Musa Sowe's now famous Food for thought message). Another notable member Andrea Klumpp conducted a survey regarding what kind of aid if any members would like to give. From the results of that survey, it was concluded that members would want to see an autonomous organization, charged with the task of collecting contributions and helping out institutions and individuals in education in the Gambia. Based on the responses a committee (nearly 20 members) was set up to develop a working document. Out of the larger committee a draft team of 5 (later 4) was formed and a draft was devloped. This draft had been submitted to the larger committee for review. It is expected that the review will be completeed by November 29 and a final document be presented to Gambia-L by Dec 1. The main points in the document are: An organization be established by the name Gambia Education Support Organization with an executive committee to oversee its activities. The activities are: Institutional support -support library and laboratory facilities(including computers) -classroom support(textbooks and other classroom materials at junior and primary Schools. Individual Support -individual scholarship and mentorship program -Education resource home page Details will be forwarded as soon as the review is completed. Malanding Jaiteh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:31:12 -0800 (PST) From: "D. Singhateh" <dawdas@u.washington.edu> To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Subscription of New Member Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96a.971120162256.37760A-100000@dante22.u.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII TO THE LIST MANAGERS: Could you please add Mr. Jassey to the list. In fact, I did make a request to this effect but he is still not added. I guess his e-mail address that I sent was not right. NAME E-MAIL ADDRESS Joseph Jassey jjassey@MCIONE Thanx again, Dawda Singahteh. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:49:31 -0800 From: "Alieu Jobe" <Tokunor@worldnet.att.net> To: <Gambia-L@u.washington.edu> Subject: Stop Subscription Message-ID: <19971121014523.AAA18416@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Please remove my name from your subcribers list Gambia-L . Stop sending messages with immediate effect. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:53:26 PST From: "Jainaba Diallo" <jai_diallo@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Subscription of New Member Message-ID: <19971121015326.19738.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mr. Singahteh, The e-mail address you have written below doesn't seem right since it doesn't have an extension. Perhaps, it should have a .com, .net or .whatever as the extension. You may wanna re-check with Mr Jarsey. My thoughts... Jainaba. ********************************************************************** > TO THE LIST MANAGERS: >Could you please add Mr. Jassey to the list. In fact, I did make a >request to this effect but he is still not added. I guess his e-mail >address that I sent was not right. > >NAME E-MAIL ADDRESS >Joseph Jassey jjassey@MCIONE > >Thanx again, Dawda Singahteh. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:27:57 PST From: "Jainaba Diallo" <jai_diallo@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Waiting to exhale.....NOT!!!! Message-ID: <19971121032758.10337.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Gambia-lers, My take as per the thread: When intellectuals argue.... It is necessary to, as much as possible, put an idea in the right context so as to elicit some constructive intellectual input from others, be it by way of reviews or criticism. However, a FEW list members have consistently demonstrated their inability, either deliberate or otherwise, to grasp even the simplest ideas. This is not to ridicule them, but these intellectually challenged people just lack the ability to read and comprehend even the simplest sentence. In their response to a wide variety of postings, one is left wondering whether they read the posting to which they were responding or whether they are just plain ignorant. Because not much is required to be on the list, it is not surprising that people of different intellect and common sense find themselves in the same newsgroup. I am not suggesting a rule or gatekeeper to weed out the morons or borderline *****s, but the fact is that some people need to be spoon fed, literarily. They provide no humor, and are nothing but poster "boys" for ignorance. It is good that they are a TINY MINORITY, otherwise this forum will be nothing but A CONFEDRACY OF DUNCES where ignorance is embraced and common sense ridiculed. There are also those who combine ignorance, stupidity, and humor. Their response sometimes leaves one wondering how they manage to go to work(school) and find their way home everyday. Believe it or not, I can stand these people, because they kind of provide comic relief on the list. It is atimes refreshing to read their pepper-soup analysis....Come on, who doesn't need a laugh after a long days work. Because of the above observation about the quality of debate since I joined the list, and also because of some postings in the archieves from the same bunch of people, I will henceforth append a disclaimer to all my postings to the list. I don't claim to have monoply of wisdom, nor do I wish to limit the scope of debate or criticism of my posting(s) by appending disclaimers. All, I ask is that people take the time to read and digest an idea before rushing to the key board. Most importantly, people should aim at focusing on the issue at hand, rather than an unrelated issue (such as the confrontation I've had with some folks in the past). Hope that I have finally exhaled!! Later.... Jainaba. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:33:42 -0500 (EST) From: MJagana@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Another act of terror Message-ID: <971120223341_1470153098@mrin42.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-18 23:59:42 EST, you write: << That sentence is dangerously getting close to racist comment. I believe most Arabs don't share the views of extremists. I'm not saying you are racist. This could very well be unintentional. We should careful in how we present our views. >> OUSMAN, I AM TRYING TO POINT OUT THE DIFFENCE HERE BETWEEN BEEN A MUSLIM, AND BEEN AN ARAB. AFTER ALL THE KILLERS ARE ARABS WHICH THERE IS NO DENIAL TO THAT FACT. HOWEVER THE MEDIA ( IN THE USA) DOES NOT DISTINGUISH THESE ARABS, RATHER THEY CLASSIFIED THEM AS MUSLIM EXTEREMISTS WHICH I FEEL IS WRONG. IF YOU THING MY COMMENT IS GETTING CLOSE TO A RACIST COMMENT, WELL THAT IS YOUR INTERPRETATION AND I RESPECT YOUR SENSE OF INTERPRETATION. HOWEVER I STAND BY MY CLASSIFICATION OF THSES MURDERS AS ARABS. MOMODOU JAGANA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:38:55 -0500 (EST) From: MJagana@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Another act of terror Message-ID: <971120223854_461293580@mrin54.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-19 09:18:16 EST, you write: << good muslim does not go about killing." (period) ?!? >> WELL I SUPPOSE FEW YOUR OWN LIFE IS UNDER DANGER YOU ARE ALLOWED TO PROTECT YOURSELF, MOMODOU J ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:08:50 -0500 (EST) From: KTouray@aol.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: suggestion Message-ID: <971121000850_-624265536@mrin58.mail.aol.com> I am very glad that some of you agreed to my idea. I have also sent letters to various people whose adresses i had by calling them eventhough some are very reluctant to give their adresses. I tried to explain to them the reason behind it but they just couldn't buy it. I think i would end up hand delivering them instead. As we all know, everyone will not agree to this idea but all we need is something to start with. With or without everybody we can still do it . We cannot just give up because most people choose not to participate. Some people don't believe in starting anything because of risks that might involve but everything in live is risky in one way or another. Right now i am waiting for a few days to know what other people think about it and then we will be able to take it from there. As soon as i get some answers i will let you know. Thanks again, Fatou sanyang. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:48:47 PST From: "Jainaba Diallo" <jai_diallo@hotmail.com> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Another act of terror Message-ID: <19971121054848.20375.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mr. Jagana, I have three questions for you....you may wanna respond to them or not at all. BTW, I am not trying to provoke you...some people think I am notorious in that regard. I'll not try to ridicule you either should you respond. It will help me a lot in contributing to this thread if you answer the questions below: 1. Do you believe that all arabs are muslim?? 2. Do you believe that all Egyptians are arabs?? 3. What is/are the reason(s) behind such acts af terror?? Cheers, Jainaba. ********************************************************************* ><< That sentence is dangerously getting close to racist comment. I > believe most Arabs don't share the views of extremists. I'm not > saying you are racist. This could very well be unintentional. We > should careful in how we present our views. >> > > >OUSMAN, > >I AM TRYING TO POINT OUT THE DIFFENCE HERE BETWEEN BEEN A MUSLIM, AND BEEN AN >ARAB. AFTER ALL THE KILLERS ARE ARABS WHICH THERE IS NO DENIAL TO THAT FACT. > >HOWEVER THE MEDIA ( IN THE USA) DOES NOT DISTINGUISH THESE ARABS, RATHER THEY >CLASSIFIED THEM AS MUSLIM EXTEREMISTS WHICH I FEEL IS WRONG. > >IF YOU THING MY COMMENT IS GETTING CLOSE TO A RACIST COMMENT, WELL THAT IS >YOUR INTERPRETATION AND I RESPECT YOUR SENSE OF INTERPRETATION. > >HOWEVER I STAND BY MY CLASSIFICATION OF THSES MURDERS AS ARABS. > > >MOMODOU JAGANA > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:14:00 +0100 From: amadou.kabir.njie@nsw.no To: Gambia-L@u.washington.edu Subject: RE : COLOUR TROUBLE Message-ID: <3475434a.narud@relay.nsw.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=body.txt Mr.Payne! How on earth could you do it? I mean remain patient and quiet in the face of all the nonsense that has = = been paraded here as debate on the very important question of RACE? Your last contribution was long overdue! If you ever do that again = (remain quiet for so long on such important issues) I shall only forgive = = you in the hereafter! You reminded me of Fanon!!! This bantaba needs a doyen like you. Maybe we all learnt all the more = because you waited for this timely and opportune moment to present this = = analysis of such intellectual profundity supported by much irrefutable = proof. In another posting earlier today somebody, was it Pa Musa Jallow?, said = = he owes you one; I join him in meaning so. A. Kabir Njie. --------------------------------------------------------------------- amadou.kabir.njie@nsw.no Narud Stokke Wiig AS R=E5dhusgt. 27 N-0158 OSLO NORWAY Tel: +47 22 33 06 70 Fax: +47 22 41 45 01 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:31:00 +0100 From: amadou.kabir.njie@nsw.no To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Another act of terror Message-ID: <34754719.narud@relay.nsw.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=body.txt Hey Jai, Very relevant and pertinent questions! Let's address the causes and not = = the symptoms!!! To borrow Bass's favourite : Keep up the good work down there! A. Kabir Njie ---------- From: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Sent: 20. november 1997 9:48 To: ak; gambia-l; jai_diallo Subject: Re: Another act of terror Mr. Jagana, I have three questions for you....you may wanna respond to them or not at all. BTW, I am not trying to provoke you...some people think I am notorious in that regard. I'll not try to ridicule you either should you respond. It will help me a lot in contributing to this thread if you answer the questions below: 1. Do you believe that all arabs are muslim?? 2. Do you believe that all Egyptians are arabs?? 3. What is/are the reason(s) behind such acts af terror?? Cheers, Jainaba. ********************************************************************* ><< That sentence is dangerously getting close to racist comment. I > believe most Arabs don't share the views of extremists. I'm not > saying you are racist. This could very well be unintentional. We > should careful in how we present our views. >> > > >OUSMAN, > >I AM TRYING TO POINT OUT THE DIFFENCE HERE BETWEEN BEEN A MUSLIM, AND BEEN AN >ARAB. AFTER ALL THE KILLERS ARE ARABS WHICH THERE IS NO DENIAL TO THAT FACT. > >HOWEVER THE MEDIA ( IN THE USA) DOES NOT DISTINGUISH THESE ARABS, RATHER THEY >CLASSIFIED THEM AS MUSLIM EXTEREMISTS WHICH I FEEL IS WRONG. > >IF YOU THING MY COMMENT IS GETTING CLOSE TO A RACIST COMMENT, WELL THAT IS >YOUR INTERPRETATION AND I RESPECT YOUR SENSE OF INTERPRETATION. > >HOWEVER I STAND BY MY CLASSIFICATION OF THSES MURDERS AS ARABS. > > >MOMODOU JAGANA > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- amadou.kabir.njie@nsw.no Narud Stokke Wiig AS R=E5dhusgt. 27 N-0158 OSLO NORWAY Tel: +47 22 33 06 70 Fax: +47 22 41 45 01 --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:07:02 -0800 (PST) From: "D. Singhateh" <dawdas@u.washington.edu> To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Subscription of New Member Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96a.971121004803.49744A-100000@dante26.u.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jainaba, thanks a lot. In fact, I did realize my mistake after I received my own message back (being a list member). The extension is ..com. AGAIN TO THE LIST MANAGERS: I would like you to add Mr. Jassey to the list. Address is given below. NAME E-MAIL ADDRESS Joseph Jassey jjassey@MCIONE.com Thanx again, Dawda Singahteh. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:45:05 -0500 From: Laura Munzel <lem10@columbia.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Color Debate Message-ID: <34759E71.880993C@columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------05AE07E0AB46716930C08F5C" --------------05AE07E0AB46716930C08F5C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr. Payne, You said: ....the idea of racism revolves around the issue of power and how that power influences collective behavior. Blacks have never been in such positions of power to influence collective behavior... You say that black people can't be racist because they can't influence collective behavior, and white people can be racist because they can affect collective behavior. What's ironic is that although you base your view on historical and political context, there is still a determinism expressed based solely on race. Isn't it very possible that a wealthy black individual would have more influence on collective behavior than poor white trash? Economic status makes a difference, I think - not just race. You might respond that the example given of a black man/woman who is wealthy, or a black man/woman who is in a position of power is the exception rather than the rule. You mention that: ...Blacks have never been in similar positions of power on a global basis. Is there such a thing of being in power on a global basis? I would say there are more pockets of power which play out differently across different contexts of economic status, social status, political status. In saying the above, there is no arguing the fact that we are all carrying around the histories of our races. We are treated differentially based on our color. People die because of their color. The affects on peoples' lives are very real. Oh, I see, and you are saying that any sense of Black solidarity is responsible for that lack of peace? Yeah, right! This is a common ploy utilized by those who are not concerned with our best interest; "Blame the victim for being victimized." And any attempt to break out of the cycle of victimization, meets with the criticism of those who benefit from our subordinate position. Black solidarity is a somewhat powerful political vehicle. But is race the only factor which makes one group subordinate to another? As indicated earlier, I suspect economic status is a stronger indicator of who will have power over whom. Basing a political position solely on race is limiting. First, it stems from the same ideology which got us into this mess in the first place. Second, by viewing race as the single significant factor in a political struggle, opportunities are missed for alliances based on other determiners. Laura --------------05AE07E0AB46716930C08F5C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> <P>Dear Mr. Payne, <P>You said: <BR><I>...the idea of racism revolves around the issue of power and how that power influences collective behavior.� Blacks have never been in such positions of power to influence collective behavior...</I><I></I> <P>You say that black people can't be racist because they can't influence collective behavior, and white people can be racist because they can affect collective behavior.� What's ironic is that although you base your view on historical and political context, there is still a determinism expressed based solely on race.� Isn't it very possible� that a wealthy black individual would have more influence on collective behavior than poor white trash?� Economic status makes a difference, I think - not just race. <P>You might respond that the example given of a black man/woman who is wealthy, or a black man/woman who is in a position of power is the exception rather than the rule.� You mention that:� ...<I>Blacks have never been in similar positions of power on a global basis.� </I>Is there such a thing of being in power on a global basis?� I would say there are more pockets of power which play out differently across different contexts of economic status, social status, political status. <P>In saying the above, there is no arguing the fact that we are all carrying around the histories of our races.� We are treated differentially based on our color.� People die because of their color.� The affects on peoples' lives are very real. <P><I>Oh, I see, and you are saying that any sense of Black solidarity is responsible for that lack of peace?� Yeah, right!� This is a common ploy utilized by those who are not concerned with our best interest; "Blame the victim for being victimized."� And any attempt to break out of the cycle of victimization, meets with the criticism of those who benefit from our subordinate position.��</I> Black solidarity is a somewhat powerful political vehicle.� But is race the only factor which makes one group subordinate to another?� As indicated earlier, I suspect economic status is a stronger indicator of who will have power over whom. <P>Basing a political position solely on race is limiting.� First, it stems from the same ideology which got us into this mess in the first place.� Second, by viewing race as the single significant factor in a political struggle, opportunities are missed for alliances based on other determiners. <P>Laura <BR>� <BR>� <BR>� <BR>�</HTML> --------------05AE07E0AB46716930C08F5C-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:50:18 -0500 (EST) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Setting up foundation. Message-ID: <971121095018_1761040977@mrin40.mail.aol.com> Fatou, l think that this is a good idea. It always breaks my heart when this sort of thing occurs. In many instances, these people have not been seen by family back home for years, and laying eyes on them even while dead is somewhat of a comfort for these families, otherwise, it is hard for them to put closure to the whole thing. l know that Islam dictates burial as soon as possible, but as someone pointed out to me, if transferring the body can be done immediately, then there is no harm done. l for one know that if l were to die here, l would want to be put to rest in Gambia. l have a suggestion. l like the proposal put forth for setting up the education foundation. Can we somehow set this foundation up to cover other things(for example this idea) as well as educational needs? This will simplify things by payment of just one annual dues. We can accomodate these other needs by perhaps increasing the annual dues to say $100.00 instead of the proposed $50.00. Some feedback please. Thanks Jabou Joh. The past few months have been very rough on the Gambians in the U.S.A .from immigration problems to death, some of us have been going through a rough time: it is my understanding that the immigration has raided some restaurants and unfortunately some of the people detained are our own blood. I have also realised that 4 gambians have passed away and family members partly depended on us tto contribute some money to send the deceased home for proper burial. Having thinking about all this, it occurred me that with the joint effort of everyone in this country, we can easily send deceased home. i think if we set up a foundation by making monthly or yearly contribution and holding at least quarterly meetings we will be well informed of what is happening to all of us and therefore help out with things that need to be taken care of.I know that it is not as easy as it seems, but a little time from everyone can make it happen. This is just a suggestion and i will be very happy to hear your points of view as we all know that two minds are better than one.I am willing to work with anybody on this and hoping that we will all participate in it. We all know that as inevitable as death is we will not want a close friend to be kept in the morgue waiting for money to be sent home for burial let alone ourselves or a family member.So please let us work together since this is something beyond our control. This does not have to be for only people in MD, anyone is welcome to be part of it. After all we can always transfer funds from one bank to another and therefore state to another. I am expecting replies from all and feel free to call me on (301)565-9427 if you would rather talk about it. thank you all, Fatou Sanyang. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu> Received: from relay13.mail.aol.com (relay13.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.13]) by air16.mail.aol.com (v36.0) with SMTP; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:36:11 -0500 Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu (lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1]) by relay13.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id AAA10915; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id VAA15163; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:34:50 -0800 Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA33982 for <gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:34:37 -0800 Received: from mrin39.mail.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id VAA21543 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:34:36 -0800 Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA28394 for gambia-l@u.washington.edu; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:34:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <971120003404_-53874598@mrin39> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:34:05 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Sender: GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: KTouray@AOL.COM To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: suggestion X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:25:40 -0500 (EST) From: Gunjur@aol.com To: Gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Lif insurance etc. Message-ID: <971121102539_-1005172172@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Malanding and others, Life insurance is fine, but please keep in mind that there is usually a long process to go through before the insurer pays up. Unless of course there is some kind of special arrangement with the insurer. Perhaps Dr. Kamara can give details of the coverage etc. Jabou Joh. I think this is an idea whichlong overdue. However, it will be important that we consider all options before we get into it. Earlier on Dr Kamara in Seatle forwarded something on life insurance ... I will suggest that a team be set up to review the various suggestions and come up with reccommendations. Malanding Jaiteh ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu> Received: from relay06.mail.aol.com (relay06.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.6]) by air12.mail.aol.com (v36.0) with SMTP; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:42:06 -0500 Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu (lists2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.1]) by relay06.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id QAA15242; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id NAA06463; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:25:44 -0800 Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id NAA44242 for <gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:25:31 -0800 Received: from news.mtu.edu (root@news.mtu.edu [141.219.70.11]) by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id NAA07015 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:25:25 -0800 Received: from mtu.edu (root@mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by news.mtu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10147 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.mtu.edu (oak.ffr.mtu.edu [141.219.149.151]) by mtu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03982 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by oak.mtu.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA03945; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:23:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199711202123.QAA03945@oak.mtu.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:23:15 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Sender: GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh) To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: lets' do it In-Reply-To: <199711202031.PAA04935@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> from "N'Deye Marie N'Jie" at Nov 20, 97 03:31:30 pm Content-Type: text X-Authentication-Warning: campus0.mtu.edu: Host oak.ffr.mtu.edu [141.219.149.151] claimed to be oak.mtu.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:06:06 -0500 (EST) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Junius' words Message-ID: <9711211606.AA71516@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In his first letter to the Public Advertiser on January 21, 1789, Junius' assessment of the United Kingdom (for how government of his day was conducted) reads, "The ruin or prosperity of a state depends so much upon the administration of its government, that, to be acquainted with the merit of a ministry, we need only observe the condition of the people. If we see them obedient to the laws, prosperous in their industry, united at home, and respected abroad, we may reasonably presume that their affairs are conducted by men of experience, abilities and virtue. If, on the contrary, we see a universal spirit of distrust and disaffection, a rapid, decay of trade, dissensions in all parts of the empire, and a total loss of respect abroad in the eyes of foreign powers, we may pronounce without hesitation, that the government of the country is weak, distracted, and corrupt." Could one say that he was writing of BLACK AFRICA???? Regards, Moe S. Jallow ======================================================================== mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:05:02 -0000 From: "tgr@commit.gm" <gambia-l@commit.gm> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: color trouble.. Message-ID: <B0000017852@south.commit.gm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sent by "Torstein Grotnes" <tgr@commit.gm> via Commit Dear Mr. Payne. Thank you for answering my request and the in-depth response. Here is my answer to your reply: >>Could you please specify for an ignorant "toubab" like me >>where I have tainted my views with racism?! >>In order to learn and change you have to listen to advices from different >>sources, so I would much apreciate it if you could enlighten >>me on this. > There is one string of comments which amplify your position on this issue. In your response to my Mr. > Njie, you made some interesting statements. The exchange went as follows: >>> Till this day blacks are attacked physically all over the "Western >>> world" by dint of our colour. If the victims are lucky they come out of >>> it alive. The day you are attacked physically in The Gambia/Africa it >>> will be to be robbed because some poor criminal needs food to eat, not >>> because of racial hatred. >> I have no statistics to prove you otherwise, but the little I have heard from the US >> is that a majority of dark skinned people are actually killed/attacked by other >> dark skinned people?! Also there seems to be certain areas in the US where a person >>with a light complexion really, really should not go?! > What Mr. Njie was pointing out, was the difference in the motivations for crime. He did not say that > crime was good in one case, and bad in the other, but he was pointing out what some of us know all too > well. In short, he was stating that crimes based exclusively on race, were exclusively perpetrated by > White people against people of color. The reverse is not true. > In your response, you first reply with the non-sequitur, concerning violent crimes of "dark skinned > people" against "other dark skinned people." This is undeniable, there are far too many violent crimes > committed here, and certainly Black people assailing Black people is an issue. However, this has > nothing to do with the issue. But, if this so called "Black on Black" crime is true, can the other > side of the coin also be true? A proliferation of Black on White crime? If both are true, then one > could come to no other conclusion from your argument that "dark skinned people" are inherently violent > and evil. Is this not a racist notion? I agree with you on the first point that "black on black" crime is a little to the side of the "white vs.black" issue. As you say, violence/crime general and violence/crime colorbased is two different things. I read Mr. Njie response in the first sense, and thus responded accordingly. What I was thinking of (in the general sense) was that people are people (good and bad) regardless of color. I do not fully comprehend how you can conclude that my arguments suggest a racist notion. Here I think you are sliding a little. "Black on black" crime is happening, "White on black" crime is happening, and I suggest that perhaps "black on white" crime is emerging a few places. Just because I am writing that there is crimes happening between "black and black" etc., does not imply that ALL "Black" (or ALL "white" for that matter) are "inherently violent and evil" (your quote). It simply means that humans are capable of anything, bad and good, "black&white". (Just trying to shorten the mail her, its getting long) > The idea that "there are certain areas in the US where a person with a light complexion really, really > should not go" is a common ploy used by many White racists and conservatives here,.... >...Well, in the late �80s, ...The two were chased and beaten by a White mob, ... > Now, Harlem (not Haarlem) is a historic Black neighborhood in New York City of some 200,000 people... > ...White people live in Harlem (not many, but a number do),.. > ...White people work in Harlem, and this much maligned community has not shown any incident of color > hatred, manifested through an attack on a White person on the basis of his hue... > ...The singular incident...Rodney King,... > ...An innocent White man, Reginald Denny,... > All of this is to say, that under normal circumstances there is no record of "Black racism" as you > would like us to believe. But your racism prevails, when you provoke unwarranted fear of Black people > (in the USA) based on color, when the circumstances do not warrant it. As I wrote before, I have no statistics to support my claim, maybe some of the other members of Gambia-L are able to help me/us with some numbers on crimes in Harlem or any other areas?! What do you think, is there no difference if a "white guy" walks down a "downtown" Harlem street or a "Black guy" does the same?! Just asking, never been there, so I don't know. Am I a racist when I ask a single question about some single areas in the US?! I never said it is a fact, and I cannot be asked to make a disclaimer on any question to avoid being a "racist provoker"!?! >>> I really need to ask, why should the expression of pride in one's people be source of >>> irritation >>> for someone else???? >>So then it is Okey for me to say, horrray, a WHITE man just beat Tyson or Carl Lewis or >>whoever because "WHITES" are MY people?!? > In a historical context, one could never equate the two scenarios, precisely because Black > participation has traditionally been excluded from such activities. White participation has not, So > there is nothing new to White participation and therefore White winning. Once again, you overlook and > ignore, the historical and contemporary context of these responses. Perhaps, because White people have > always had high visibility in the record books, history books, and any other book you can think of, you > do not have a sense of urgency. However, as the statements of either: Black inferiority, or general > lack of fitness of Black people for anything worth merit, one by one fall down, through the efforts and > achievements of People of Color, I and others will cheer these achievements and cheer them LOUDLY and > WITHOUT APOLOGY!!! If you do not cheer, then that is your right; I understand it quite well; in fact, > I wouldn't expect you to cheer. If you look in the history books, all the people that achieves something actually has names and stories behind them. They are idividuals, not just "whites" (or "blacks"). This is what makes them interesting as sportsmen/women etc. Today you have people of any "color" making achievements in sports etc. and everybody cheers the achiever, being it a American, Englishman, Chinese or whatever. What makes them interesting is their talent, their ability and the story behind their success, NOT the color. This is how it should be if you ask me. For me there is nothing like "they" and "us" in the sense of color. I believe "color" is a unhealty separation of people, looked upon in any context, historically or otherwise. Now,now "old man" what is this: "I wouldn't expect you to cheer." an assumption, on my behalf?!? (Just trying to shorten the mail her, its getting long) > In 1936, the Black man Jesse Owens... >..Whereas Jesse Owens's victory over these peculiar ethnic notions did not imply Black athletic superiority >over White people, a notion which you seem to want to ascribe to those of us who dare cheer Black achievement; >but it did serve to knock down a myth of Black inferiority in one arena of life >(with implications extending to other arenas.) Me ascribing anything like "black athletic superiority" is all in your own mind, my dear fellow, since I do not care about color. When I first saw the documentary of Jesse Owens I had goosepimples on the achivements he made as a statement for the free world against Nazi-Germany. It was fascinating and I cheered LOUDLY. > When the Brown Bomber, Joe Louis, defeated Max Schmeling, he not only defeated another boxer, but he > kicked the butt of a racist theory of White supremacy. The reverse has never been true, because Blacks > have never been in similar positions of power on a global basis. You see Mr. Torstein, the idea of > racism revolves around the issue of power and how that power influences collective behavior. Blacks > have never been in such positions of power to influence collective behavior, while the recognition you > receive as "toubab" has nothing to do with either power or behavior. Everything revolves around power if you ask me. Racism as far as I have learnt is a mix of fear, lack of knowledge, collective behaviour as you say, peoples tendency to always group things, conservatism etc. Since we are visually dependent creatures, "black" and "white" is a convenient but erranous way to group people. > In looking at television in the 1960s, (before you were born) many of us cheered the few times we saw a > Black person momentarily appear on the television screen for the brief quarter of a second that he or > she would appear in a television commercial. I can remember those experiences vividly! Why? Because > we were traditionally excluded from participation in the larger society, nationally, and globally, on > the basis of color! Was this exclusion a situation of our (read, our = Black people's) creation? I > think that even you should see the point here. Again, the issues of power and behavior arise. My > annoyance stems from the fact that as we react to situations which have been thrust upon us, you feel > threatened because some of us feel a sense of solidarity, based upon common experiences of oppression > and the melanin we have in common. Yes, "even I" see the point. It is not pleasant to even think about such scenarioes, but I can't do very much about it, other than draw experience from it. But this is not the sixties now, I would mildly suggest that the situation is different (better?!) now in some parts of the world. I will stand together with you in any confrontation you would ever experience regarding racism. You are wrong when you believe I am feeling threatened, I am just asking for a critical approach to the use of "color". >>> And then, why should I allow someone else to define for me, with whom I collectively >>> identify? >> I will defend to my death your right to define anything you like, but as a consept my >> personal belief is that it is not the best way to make peace among people from around the world. > > Oh, I see, and you are saying that any sense of Black solidarity is responsible for that lack of > peace? Yeah, right! This is a common ploy utilized by those who are not concerned with our best > interest; "Blame the victim for being victimized." And any attempt to break out of the cycle of > victimization, meets with the criticism of those who benefit from our subordinate position. Again you are assuming the wrong thing (on behalf of me). All I am saying is that to use the two "colors" "white" and "black" to separate people, is a generalisation of people that creates polarization and divides humans into "us" and "them" regardless of who is doing it, "white","black","brown,"red","yellow","gray" etc.........(getting tired of this colorfocusing :-( ) > >> If Mr. Torstein has a problem with expressions of Black pride or the expression of a > >> positive Black > >> identity, then I suggest that is his problem, and that he has some issues, that he has to > >> resolve. > > >A positive black identity?, where the important thing is that "MY COLOR" beat the bad > >"WHITE" > >people?!? > > That is interesting. According to my understanding of your response there can be nothing like a > positive Black identity. Furthermore, I see that you have a problem of interpretation. I don't > remember characterizing events like you have. Why did you use the adjective "bad" to characterize > "WHITE people?" Is this something that I have actually written on this list in the above context? Or > is this a creation of your own mind? I would suggest "you look before you [make the inductive] leap" > This is your characterization, not mine. If one were to follow your characterization, then any team or > individual whom I support, would be contesting against an evil or "bad" opponent. So, when I cheer an > individual (whom I support), then it is obviously because the opponent was a bad and nasty team or > individual. Does this reasoning makes sense to you? You can take away the "bad" in the sentence without changing my meaning. Is this colorstruggle really what we want? "White" against "Black" on the racefield, economically, politically etc.? "Black" identity in my opinion should be unecessary just as "White" identity is. It is maybe theoretically today, but could be the thing to aim at. > >> After all, to categorize on ANY LEVEL is to be exclusionary to some group in the world. > >> The > >> Olympics is a vehicle for the type of pride expressed on a national level. Are the > >> Olympics, or > >> the type of pride which the Olympics foster wrong? > > >You just said it my friend, the olympics being a big, wonderful mix of people from around > >the world > >of any > >color nuance competing on the basis of skills and talent and really not "COLOR"!!! > > Again, thank you for conveniently missing the point. In the Olympics, people compete on the basis of > skill, training, and NATIONALITY. Nationality is a category which, can be and is framed to be > inclusive of some, but excludes others. Is this a problem for you? Probably not if I remember some of > your earlier posts correctly. You don't mind categorization on any other level than color. People > cheer for national pride in the Olympics. Team members cheer on fellow team members, not because of > the INTRINSIC qualities each individual team member has, but because they are TEAM MEMBERS! Well, for > me one team I am proud to belong to is the team, which wears the Black suits all day long, even if > there are some disgruntled team members who do not consider themselves to be part of the team. That > goes with the territory. And by the way, the paragraph you are referencing looks at the sources of > pride within the Olympics, not the idea of the bases of competition. I did not miss your point. I just don't think you can draw straight comparison between colorcategorization and categorization by Nation. There is a Maroccean from my country that I hope will perform in the next Olympics on long distance running. My dream is that he comes back with a gold medal in his bag. That his skincolor is sligthly brownish is of absolutely no interest. So again for me The Olympics are a showcase on how the world should compete. The best man/woman not the "best" color. > >> Typically, quite a number White people throughout the world have always felt threatened > >> when Black > >> people express pride in themselves. > > >I feel treathened by violent people, ignorant people, people with guns, fanatic people > >and people without humor, but you can beat your chest as much as you like for me, > >I will evaluate you by the things you do and not your "COLOR". > > And that is fine. I will recognize you by whatever distinguishing characteristic you possess, not by > ignoring them. You keep confusing recognition, with evaluation, which are not the same. Admittedly, > one could simultaneously recognize and evaluate any phenomenon one chooses, however, this is not > necessarily the case. In an earlier post I seem to recall (and I am sure that you will correct me if I > am wrong) that you mentioned your resentment to people or children, specifically (I forget which one, > and have deleted that post) who see you and refer to you as "Toubab" This is the point of recognition > for the people who greet you as so. There is no evaluation of your character on the basis of this > designation. After all, neither your name nor your nationality are printed on your forehead for all to > see and read, so no one can refer to you in that manner, if they first meet you or develop nothing more > than a passing acquaintance with you. It is ridiculous for me to reference "that fruit" when I want to > refer to an orange in a bowl of apples. The orange in the midst of apples serves as its own > reference! Your whiteness in a land of Black people is a distinguishing characteristic. No rocket > scientist needed here. Like it or not, that is the reality. It is not a comment on your character or > personality, it is a comment on your appearance. Period. Well, you seem to be hung up on details. Conserning Evaluation & recognition. Toubab can be a evaluation if you think about it; - I am a foreigner, - I have a lot of money, (to give away) ("toubab, give me some Dalasi...") - I can help them in any way they need, - I am nice, - I can take them to Europe, etc. Just to be a little Nitty Gritty back. What I tried to say in a simple way was that for instance an athlete like Carl Lewis for me is a big star because of his personality and talent and not "color". To beat your chest because Carl Lewis happens to have a '"brown color" makes me say, "so what?" > >> For Black people to express this type of pride is not demeaning to others, as both of you > >> would > >> suggest, but rather, is the result of numerous historical processes. > > >I am humble and sometimes depressed in the face of history, but for myself I make my > >own > >reputation, and will speak up if people use my skincolor to define me. > > That, again, is a problem with which you will have to live. It is either silly or extremely naive to > think that we arrive and act in the world independently of historic events or global social forces. We > are shaped by such events and forces, just as we play a part in shaping history and society. The difference between the shaping of people and the shaping of a mountain is that people can chose to change or "reshape" it self based on intelligence and knowledge. That is what gives me hope. > >> If I express a love for my wife, does it demean other women??? I hope not!!! The > >> Torstein argument > >> is the same argument that I have heard time without number, coming from White people of > >> various > >> backgrounds (most NOT well intentioned) and a number of "liberal" Black folks, as to > >> why there > >> should be, for instance, Black Studies or Black History? The answer to that question is, > >> all > >> things being equal, that there should not be such programs. However, as we all know, All > >> Things > >> Are Not Equal! These programs, as well as the expression of Black pride are the historic > >> result of > >> the exclusion of the voices of Black people and their experiences in the larger arena. > >> Now, when > >> Black people get a voice, you try to silence that voice, on the alleged basis of being > >> offensive to > >> some people? > >> M W Payne > > > So the important thing here is to voice out color segregation but the other way? > > Should not the voice of opressed people fighting against colordiffences, be to > > fight against evaluating people based on color??! > > Mr. Torstein, God created color differences, not me. I have no problem with the differences, as there > is nothing wrong with the varieties of human existence. Human beings however recognize and acknowledge > those differences (again, nothing wrong here), and may act upon those differences (there is a > possibility of foul play). My point is, that whereas you are prepared to deny the obvious, I am NOT, > because it is not inherently value laden. Different doesn't necessarily mean better; it doesn't > necessarily mean worse. It simply means DIFFERENT. You have a good point here, that there can be grouping based on color, without any negative components attached to it..but do you believe it yourself?! > Right here in the good ol' US of A, a number of Black people (regardless of nationality, character, > educational background, or any of the host of characteristics you would insist that we examine first) > have lost their lives, simply because of their skin color. I have personally experienced dogs that > are trained to bark at and attack Black people exclusively!!! So, please don't lecture me, or attempt > to tell me how to approach life. You are far too young and inexperienced to do that. > M W Payne I have never tried to lecture anyone, just giving out my thoughts as everybody else. I am fairly young, inexperienced, and I would never even attemt to tell you how you should run your life. But maybe I have had some positive influence on you, regarding color and how to look at it?! Re: Caps lock. I was not the one using capital letters in the mail. I don't know how long you have been on e-mail/Internet but it is actually considered rude and "shouting" as e-mail ethics go. No lecturing of course, just a tip. Best Regards, Torstein The Gambia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:36:47 +0300 From: "BASSIROU DODOU DRAMMEH" <kolls567@qatar.net.qa> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Junius' words Message-ID: <01bcf6a4$0b63f1a0$272385c2@kolls567> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr.Jallow! You are really provocative! But I must admit that your this excerpt sounds dangerously close to discribing the present state of affairs of present day Africa.Please,try to be nice to us next time you send a Quote,and keep up the good work down there! Regards Bassss! If, on the >contrary, we see a universal spirit of distrust and disaffection, a rapid, >decay of trade, dissensions in all parts of the empire, and a total loss >of respect abroad in the eyes of foreign powers, we may pronounce without >hesitation, that the government of the country is weak, distracted, and >corrupt." > >Could one say that he was writing of BLACK AFRICA???? > > > >Regards, >Moe S. Jallow > >======================================================================== > mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:49:32 -0500 (EST) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Junius' words Message-ID: <9711211949.AA28694@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bass, you wrote: > Mr.Jallow! > You are really provocative! But I must admit that your this > excerpt sounds dangerously close to discribing the present state of affairs > of present day Africa.Please,try to be nice to us next time you send a > Quote,and keep up the good work down there! > > > Regards Bassss! > If, on the > >contrary, we see a universal spirit of distrust and disaffection, a rapid, > >decay of trade, dissensions in all parts of the empire, and a total loss > >of respect abroad in the eyes of foreign powers, we may pronounce without > >hesitation, that the government of the country is weak, distracted, and > >corrupt." > > > >Could one say that he was writing of BLACK AFRICA???? Bass, Me...provocative? Maybe...but NOT in a resentful way I hope :-(. If you find this excerpt provocative, then I will set politics aside and say that If this were the forum to expose in detail the shallowness of African governments and how their example causes other members of the elite ruling class to engage in the same empty struggle for power, but mostly for personal gain, I would be more detailed in my response to you. It is sufficient to say that your response on this topic should be a stimulus to keep in mind why most African countries lack progress in development and constitutional order. The excerpt above is directly related to our problem of lack of a political system that would serve as a road map to build a well-organized society. We lack visionary leaders who can frame a government suitable for the flowering of democracy and economic development. We condemn western ideas, such as democracy, as unsuitable for our society, yet our intellectuals look foolish making those accusations without a native substitute. We are invariably impressed with people with higher education without asking whether their acclaimed learning can transform our society. The politicians we choose to lead us are chosen not for leadership skills that develop society but for the client-patron relations we may acquire later from them. When soldiers see the educated class and politicians doing things for only themselves, they too imagine to become part of the system, whereafter more hell breaks loose. The worst thing (sadly of course) is that any intellectual who seeks to create modernization in Africa is condemned as too western for the nation. Thus, to survive, he goes along, to get along. Is this not why some of us refuse to go back home? Will we ever witness the "miracles" of change???????? Have an enjoyable weekend! Regards, Moe S. Jallow ========================================================================== mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:33:31 -0500 (EST) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Humor: Several for the weekend Message-ID: <9711212033.AA48840@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are some few jokes for the weekend. WARNING: some of the jokes contain language that may be offensive to some of you. If you are easily offended with explicit language, then I suggest you DELETE this email message WITHOUT reading. For those of you who appreciate jokes of this type, well...enjoy! Till next week. Have an enjoyable week! Regards, Moe S. Jallow ======================================================================= mjallow@sctedu mjallow@hayes.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A man and his son recently moved to Texas. One Saturday afternoon they decided to take a walk through the park. During the walk the boy sees 2 cowboys walk by. "Dad, look at those bow-legged bastards!" The father is surprised by this and tells his son that that is not very nice language to use. A few minutes later, 2 more cowboys walk by and again the boy yells, "Dad, look at thoses bow legged bastards!" The father, quite upset now turns to his son and says, "I told you not to say that and I do not want to hear it again, or else." just a few minutes go by and another pair of cowboys walk by and once again the child yells, "Dad, look at those bow-legged bastards!" "Thats it!" the father yells, and takes the child home and locks him in his room with the complete works of Shakespeare. Two weeks later, he lets his son out and notices that he has taken to speaking like Shakespeare wrote. This impressed the father so he decided to take his son out for another walk through the park. As they were walking a pair of cowboys walk past them. The boy turns to his father and says, "Father, what strange men are these, whose balls hang in parenthises?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- A tiny but dignified old lady was among a group looking at an art exhibition in a newly opened gallery. Suddenly one contemporary painting caught her eye. "What on earth," she inquired of the artist standing nearby, "is that?" He smiled condescendingly. "That, my dear lady, is supposed to be a mother and her child." "Well, then," snapped the little old lady, "why isn't it?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- A Sunday school teacher asked her class, "Does anyone know Jesus' Mother's name?" Susie raised her hand and said, "It was Mary." The teacher said, "Very good Susie. Do you know Jesus' Father's name?" Little Johnny said, "Yes, it was Virg." the teacher asked how he came up with her answer. He said, "You know, Verg 'n Mary....." ------------------------------------------------------------------- This man goes to confession and says, "Forgive me father for I have sinned." The priest asks if he would like to confess his sins and the man replies that he used the "F-word" over the weekend. The priest says, "Oh okay, just say three Hail Marys and try to watch your language. The man replies that he would like to confess as to why he said the "F-word". The priest sighs and tells him to continue. Well father I played golf on Sunday with my buddies instead of going to church. The priest says, "And you got upset over that and swore?" The man replied, "No, that wasn't why I swore. On the first tee I duck-hooked my drive well left into the trees." The priest said, "And that's when you swore." The man replied, a little testily because of the constant interruptions, "No, it wasn't. When I walked up the fairway, I noticed my ball got a lucky bounce and I had a clear shot to the green. However, before I could hit the ball, a squirrel ran by and grabbed my ball and scurried up a tree." The priest asked, "Is that when you said the 'F-word'?" The man replied, "No, because an eagle then flew by and caught the squirrel in it's sharp talons and flew away." The priest let out a breath and queried, "Is that when you swore?" The man replied, "No, because the eagle flew over the green and the dying squirrel let go of my golf ball and it landed within 5 inches of the hole." The priest screamed, "Don't tell me you missed the ****ing putt!!!" ------------------------------------------------------------------- One day this man was jumping up and down on a manhole cover screaming at the top of his lungs, "Seventeen!! Seventeen!!" Intrigued by the man's insane behavior, another man walks over to him and asks why he is doing that. The first man responded, "It's a blast. You have to try it. Jump as high as you can and scream 'Seventeen!!' as loud as humanly possible. You get such a rush. Try it." Reluctantly, the second man gets on the manhole cover and barely hops and says, "Seventeen?" very timidly. The first one says, "No, no, no. You're doing it wrong. Jump higher. Yell louder." So, the second man begins jumping a little higher and speaking louder than normal. Finally he says, "Hey, you know, I am getting a little bit of a rush. Seventeen!! Seventeen!!" The man jumps higher and higher, screaming louder and louder. The first man, once the second had jumped high enough, yanked the manhole cover out from under the second, causing him to fall down the manhole. The first one man replaced the cover and, once again, began jumping and screaming, "Eighteen!! Eighteen!!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:56:01 -0500 (EST) From: Musa Sowe <chemsm@panther.Gsu.EDU> To: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: FYI Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.971121155343.18988C-100000@panther.Gsu.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those who may be interested: Accra Distance Learning/InfoTech >> >> CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT >> >> Volunteers >> >> UPDATE: Ghana Distance Learning / InfoTech Conference >> May 20 - 22, 1998 >> >> At the end, please find an update, and an invitation to >> volunteer help with the planning and implementation, by >> participating in informal discussion by E-mail -- a list >> has been set up for the purpose of making all arrangements for >> the Conference. Find details at the end of this msg. >> _______ >> A f r i c a - B r a z i l - C u b a >> >> D i a s p o r a P r o g r a m s >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> >> Internships / Travel-Study / EduTouring / Study Abroad >> _______________________________________________________________ >> >> AASP >> EDUCATIONAL / Travel Programs to AFRICA & BRAZIL & CUBA >> for 1997 / 1998 / 1999 >> >> Offers an intense immersion in and exposure to traditional >> and modern life, a unique educational experience that is >> career-enhancing -- and profoundly personal and >> relevant -- in our Global Village. >> >> Select from among several different travel itineraries, >> program themes, and dates year round. >> >> CONTACT: >> Professor Harold Rogers >> President, AASP >> >> 19 S. LaSalle St., Suite 301 >> Chicago, IL 60603 >> Phone: 312-443-0929 >> >> E-mail your name & >> full address to BOTH: >> >> 1- "Update/Information" <AASP@Juno.Com> >> 2- "Brochure/Application" <AfricanEduTravel@Yahoo.Com> >> WHEN TO >> APPLY? >> We are now accepting applications. >> >> COUNTRIES: >> Senegal, Ivory Coast, Mali, South Africa, Egypt, >> Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya, Zimbabwe, The Gambia, >> Cameroon, Mozambique, Namibia, Brazil, Cuba >> >> ACTIVITIES >> & SITES: >> Urban centers; rural villages; cultural and historical >> sites; geographic and natural landmarks; explore >> traditional life, linguistic and ethnic diversity; >> experience a unique blend of human warmth & vitality >> of spirit; leave the beaten path to see, feel and >> appreciate what tourists rarely could or would. >> >> DURATION: Programs range from 1 week to 3 weeks, beginning >> variously in December, February, June, July & August. >> >> Special programs with particular themes may be arranged. >> >> COST: >> Fees start at $995 - the lowest cost anywhere for a >> program of this scope; includes travel, accommodations, >> breakfast & full daily program -- led by Dr. Rogers and >> experienced AASP staff. >> >> ACADEMIC >> CREDIT: >> Students typically arrange to receive 3 to 10 units >> from their respective schools; or credit can be earned >> through AASP's university affiliation, either graduate >> or undergraduate units WHO CAN >> APPLY? >> Participation is open to professionals, students, >> non-students, technicals, and interested persons >> in the general community >> >> All are welcome. Applications now being accepted. >> >> HOW TO >> RAI$E >> THE FUND$? >> Please go to the Websites below where you will find >> superb help with fundraising -- how to obtain grants, >> scholarships and loans; how to receive support from your >> campus or department; how to appeal to groups and >> organizations both on campus and in the community; and >> how to win support from businesses, charities, religious >> groups and foundations. being persistent. Virtually all who make an effort >> to raise the funds, do succeed. As a 501(C)(3) >> non-profit organization, donations made to AASP >> toward your participation are tax-deductible. >> >> http://www.studyabroad.com/forum/financial_aid.html >> http://www.fund-raising.com/ideabank3.html (a cornucopia of ideas!) >> http://www.studyabroad.com/handbook/costs.html#aid >> >> ________________________________________________________________ >> >> Contact us to receive the application, brochure with itineraries, >> program details and special features. For faster response, >> best to phone: 312-443-0929 to circumvent our E-mail backlog >> _________________________________________________________________ >> >> ABOUT AASP... The African American Studies Program, established in 1981, is a >> non-profit organization committed to broadening educational, >> cultural and political perspectives about African countries, >> societies and peoples. More than just a tour, we offer a variety >> of educational experiences in each country to heighten awareness >> and understanding. Our programs are open to anyone who has an >> interest in learning more about Africa and the African Diaspora. >> >> =============================================================== >> >> Accra Distance Learning/InfoTech >> CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT >> >> Your Invitation to Help... >> >> THE GHANA DISTANCE LEARNING/INFO TECH CONFERENCE >> TO BE HELD IN ACCRA: MAY 20 - 22 1998 >> >> GHANA SPONSOR: The Voluntary Workcamps Association along with numerous organizations, institutions and NGO's in Ghana and worldwide >> >> VOLUNTEER TO HELP VIA INFORMAL DISCUSSION BY E-MAIL >> >> FOR INFO, PLEASE CONTACT: >> >> DR. OSEI DARKWA >> Faculty, University of Illinois >> >> <darkwa@tigger.cc.uic.edu> >> >> Please contact Dr. Darkwa if you would like to participate >> pro bono in the planning and implementation of this >> conference, or play some other role in the area of your interest. >> >> You are invited to join the E-Mail discussion group GHACLAD-SCOPE which has been set up to promote and carry >> out the conference, including making all arrangements, >> resolving any problems, and fine-tuning the agenda and program. >> >> To join the List, please send a msg with "subscribe ghaclad-scope" >> in the body to: >> >> majordomo@igc.org >> >> You will immediately be added to the GHAGLAD-SCOPE >> discussion group. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> FINAL DATES OF CONFERENCE >> >> May 20-22, 1998 >> >> OBJECTIVES OF THE CONFERENCE a) To initiate a long-term effort to promote electronic networking >> for economic and educational development in Africa. >> >> b) To examine the future of education in electronic classroms >> without walls >> >> c) To explore the barriers to developing transnational goals >> for infusing computer literacy into primary, secondary, and >> tertiary education in Africa >> >> d) To strengthen the capacity of grassroots organizations >> and low income communities to initiate, choose, plan and >> manage their own self help projects through computer technology >> and information systems. >> _________________________________ >> Thanks....................Musa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:43:58 -0500 From: globexinc@erols.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: lets' do it Message-ID: <3476009E.1952@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Modou Jallow wrote: > > Let's do it! > > That would be wonderful. Please, Let me in on it. > > Regards, > Moe S. Jallow > > > > Fatima.Yes Fatima," Lets do it "( I think that seems to be a good theme ) I mean > > a mission statement for this purpose. > > Habib Way to go Let's do it hdg -- MZ� ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:02:05 -0500 From: globexinc@erols.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: lets' do it Message-ID: <347604DD.5F1C@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Malanding S. Jaiteh wrote: > > I think this is an idea whichlong overdue. However, it will be > important that we consider all options before we get into it. > Earlier on Dr Kamara in Seatle forwarded something on life insurance > . I will suggest that a team be set up to review the various suggestions and > come up with reccommendations. > > Malanding Jaiteh Let's do it Mamading, I met your sister in law at Agie's funeral yesterday(it turned out good-Alhamdulillah-) The insurance notion was set up by our Gambian Muslim Assn but it never got off ground due to some organizational constraints. Mr Steve Wilson , a west African national, had a proposal to me (which was forwarded to Pa Ndarow Sey- the current President of the Gambia Muslim Assn) that will cover only burial & funeral expenses of about $5000.00-five thousand only (TERM INSURANCE)for only $14.00(fourteen dollars a month) per person in the Assn. This will eliaveate the burden on us for the funeral costs and there will be left over cash *average muslim burial in the USA is about $4000.00* If the family wants to take the body and theycan afford it without delay then so be it. If you want details call Steve Wilson at 301 864 9000 or me at my new office 703 506 1260 Habib Diab Ghanim -- MZ� ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:14:04 -0500 From: globexinc@erols.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Another act of terror Message-ID: <347607AC.5A52@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MJagana@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-11-18 23:59:42 EST, you write: > > << That sentence is dangerously getting close to racist comment. I > believe most Arabs don't share the views of extremists. I'm not > saying you are racist. This could very well be unintentional. We > should careful in how we present our views. >> > > OUSMAN, > > I AM TRYING TO POINT OUT THE DIFFENCE HERE BETWEEN BEEN A MUSLIM, AND BEEN AN > ARAB. AFTER ALL THE KILLERS ARE ARABS WHICH THERE IS NO DENIAL TO THAT FACT. > > HOWEVER THE MEDIA ( IN THE USA) DOES NOT DISTINGUISH THESE ARABS, RATHER THEY > CLASSIFIED THEM AS MUSLIM EXTEREMISTS WHICH I FEEL IS WRONG. > > IF YOU THING MY COMMENT IS GETTING CLOSE TO A RACIST COMMENT, WELL THAT IS > YOUR INTERPRETATION AND I RESPECT YOUR SENSE OF INTERPRETATION. > > HOWEVER I STAND BY MY CLASSIFICATION OF THSES MURDERS AS ARABS. > > MOMODOU JAGANA Momodou I beg to differ on this issue If you want to make a distinction then make it clear that SOME Arabs who claim to be muslims commited this crime. That is more acceptable in my opinion. Secondly, it is a known fact the many Israeli commandos kill innocent muslims and Arabs ,then escape into the wilderness and CLAIM afterwards that they were muslims JUST to taint the Islamic Faith. It is happening in Algeria, Palestine and Israel itself. So please be careful when you make blanket statements like this . We have many crimes here in Washington that we think are commited by Blacks against Blacks when it is found out later that it is not so .Just a reminder -do you remember the case in Boston the white man who shot his wife and said it was a black guy !! and the case of Susan ?? of north Carolina that said a black man kidnapped her children just later to admit she herself pushed them into the Lake Peace Habib -- MZ� ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:16:04 -0500 From: globexinc@erols.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: suggestion Message-ID: <34760824.45E2@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit KTouray@aol.com wrote: > > I am very glad that some of you agreed to my idea. I have also sent letters > to various people whose adresses i had by calling them eventhough some are > very reluctant to give their adresses. I tried to explain to them the reason > behind it but they just couldn't buy it. I think i would end up hand > delivering them instead. As we all know, everyone will not agree to this idea > but all we need is something to start with. With or without everybody we can > still do it . We cannot just give up because most people choose not to > participate. Some people don't believe in starting anything because of risks > that might involve but everything in live is risky in one way or another. > Right now i am waiting for a few days to know what other people think about > it and then we will be able to take it from there. As soon as i get some > answers i will let you know. > Thanks again, Fatou sanyang. Fatou Sanyang, Can you please post your number again. Habib -- MZ� ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:01:20 -0000 From: "tgr@commit.gm" <gambia-l@commit.gm> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Another act of terror Message-ID: <B0000018055@south.commit.gm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent by "Torstein Grotnes" <tgr@commit.gm> via Commit MR MOMODOU. THAT IS NOT CALLED KILLING. THAT IS CALLED SELFDEFENCE, AND IS (SHOULD BE) DECIDED BY THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I hope some understand my understatement by overstating with Cap.letters...) Regards, Torstein The Gambia > WELL I SUPPOSE FEW YOUR OWN LIFE IS UNDER DANGER YOU ARE ALLOWED TO PROTECT > YOURSELF, > MOMODOU J ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:20:02 -0500 From: globexinc@erols.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Another act of terror Message-ID: <34760912.62C7@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jainaba Diallo wrote: > > Mr. Jagana, > > I have three questions for you....you may wanna respond to them or not > at all. BTW, I am not trying to provoke you...some people think I am > notorious in that regard. I'll not try to ridicule you either should you > respond. It will help me a lot in contributing to this thread if you > answer the questions below: > > 1. Do you believe that all arabs are muslim?? > > 2. Do you believe that all Egyptians are arabs?? > > 3. What is/are the reason(s) behind such acts af terror?? > > Cheers, > > Jainaba. > ********************************************************************* > > ><< That sentence is dangerously getting close to racist comment. I > > believe most Arabs don't share the views of extremists. I'm not > > saying you are racist. This could very well be unintentional. We > > should careful in how we present our views. >> > > > > > >OUSMAN, > > > >I AM TRYING TO POINT OUT THE DIFFENCE HERE BETWEEN BEEN A MUSLIM, AND > BEEN AN > >ARAB. AFTER ALL THE KILLERS ARE ARABS WHICH THERE IS NO DENIAL TO THAT > FACT. > > > >HOWEVER THE MEDIA ( IN THE USA) DOES NOT DISTINGUISH THESE ARABS, > RATHER THEY > >CLASSIFIED THEM AS MUSLIM EXTEREMISTS WHICH I FEEL IS WRONG. > > > >IF YOU THING MY COMMENT IS GETTING CLOSE TO A RACIST COMMENT, WELL THAT > IS > >YOUR INTERPRETATION AND I RESPECT YOUR SENSE OF INTERPRETATION. > > > >HOWEVER I STAND BY MY CLASSIFICATION OF THSES MURDERS AS ARABS. > > > > > >MOMODOU JAGANA > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Jainaba those were very good questions and I am sure the picture will be clear afterwards. Almost ALL muslims oppose any terrist acts -Arabs or non Arabs. Secondly, less than ten percent of the world's muslim population are Arabs. -- peace Habib ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:25:30 -0500 From: globexinc@erols.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Setting up foundation. Message-ID: <34760A5A.47CD@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gunjur@aol.com wrote: > > Fatou, > l think that this is a good idea. It always breaks my heart when this sort of > thing occurs. In many instances, these people have not been seen by family > back home for years, and laying eyes on them even while dead is somewhat of a > comfort for these families, otherwise, it is hard for them to put closure to > the whole thing. l know that Islam dictates burial as soon as possible, but > as someone pointed out to me, if transferring the body can be done > immediately, then there is no harm done. l for one know that if l were to die > here, l would want to be put to rest in Gambia. l have a suggestion. l like > the proposal put forth for setting up the education foundation. Can we > somehow set this foundation up to cover other things(for example this idea) > as well as educational needs? This will simplify things by payment of just > one annual dues. We can accomodate these other needs by perhaps increasing > the annual dues to say $100.00 instead of the proposed $50.00. Some feedback > please. Thanks > > Jabou Joh. > > The past few months have been very rough on the Gambians in the U.S.A .from > immigration problems to death, some of us have been going through a rough > time: it is my understanding that the immigration has raided some restaurants > and unfortunately some of the people detained are our own blood. I have also > realised that 4 gambians have passed away and family members partly depended > on us tto contribute some money to send the deceased home for proper burial. > Having thinking about all this, it occurred me that with the joint effort of > everyone in this country, we can easily send deceased home. i think if we set > up a foundation by making monthly or yearly contribution and holding at least > quarterly meetings we will be well informed of what is happening to all of us > and therefore help out with things that need to be taken care of.I know that > it is not as easy as it seems, but a little time from everyone can make it > happen. > This is just a suggestion and i will be very happy to hear your points of > view as we all know that two minds are better than one.I am willing to work > with anybody on this and hoping that we will all participate in it. > We all know that as inevitable as death is we will not want a close friend to > be kept in the morgue waiting for money to be sent home for burial let alone > ourselves or a family member.So please let us work together since this is > something beyond our control. > This does not have to be for only people in MD, anyone is welcome to be part > of it. After all we can always transfer funds from one bank to another and > therefore state to another. > I am expecting replies from all and feel free to call me on (301)565-9427 if > you would rather talk about it. > thank you all, Fatou Sanyang. > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu> > Received: from relay13.mail.aol.com (relay13.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.13]) > by air16.mail.aol.com (v36.0) with SMTP; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:36:11 -0500 > Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu (lists2.u.washington.edu > [140.142.56.1]) > by relay13.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with ESMTP id AAA10915; > Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:35:04 -0500 (EST) > Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id VAA15163; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:34:50 -0800 > Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id VAA33982 for <gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 > 21:34:37 -0800 > Received: from mrin39.mail.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) > by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id VAA21543 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:34:36 > -0800 > Received: (from root@localhost) > by mrin39.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) > id AAA28394 for gambia-l@u.washington.edu; > Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:34:05 -0500 (EST) > Message-Id: <971120003404_-53874598@mrin39> > Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:34:05 -0500 (EST) > Reply-To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu > Sender: GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: KTouray@AOL.COM > To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List > <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > Subject: suggestion > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Jabou Your sentiments are just like most of us and you are right if the body of the deseaced can be transported as soon as possible( like the Senegalese do- they have money set aside only for this purpose-) the it is allowed according to most Islamic Scholars. Let's do it Habib -- MZ� ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:27:34 -0500 From: globexinc@erols.com To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Lif insurance etc. Message-ID: <34760AD6.164D@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gunjur@aol.com wrote: > > Malanding and others, > > Life insurance is fine, but please keep in mind that there is usually a long > process to go through before the insurer pays up. Unless of course there is > some kind of special arrangement with the insurer. Perhaps Dr. Kamara can > give details of the coverage etc. > > Jabou Joh. > > I think this is an idea whichlong overdue. However, it will be > important that we consider all options before we get into it. > Earlier on Dr Kamara in Seatle forwarded something on life insurance > .. I will suggest that a team be set up to review the various suggestions and > > come up with reccommendations. > > Malanding Jaiteh > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu> > Received: from relay06.mail.aol.com (relay06.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.6]) by > air12.mail.aol.com (v36.0) with SMTP; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:42:06 -0500 > Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu (lists2.u.washington.edu > [140.142.56.1]) > by relay06.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with ESMTP id QAA15242; > Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:26:00 -0500 (EST) > Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP > id NAA06463; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:25:44 -0800 > Received: from mx4.u.washington.edu (mx4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.5]) > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP > id NAA44242 for <gambia-l@lists.u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 > 13:25:31 -0800 > Received: from news.mtu.edu (root@news.mtu.edu [141.219.70.11]) > by mx4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP > id NAA07015 for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:25:25 > -0800 > Received: from mtu.edu (root@mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) > by news.mtu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10147 > for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:25:23 -0500 (EST) > Received: from oak.mtu.edu (oak.ffr.mtu.edu [141.219.149.151]) > by mtu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03982 > for <gambia-l@u.washington.edu>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:25:23 -0500 (EST) > Received: by oak.mtu.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) > id QAA03945; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:23:16 -0500 > Message-Id: <199711202123.QAA03945@oak.mtu.edu> > Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:23:15 -0500 (EST) > Reply-To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu > Sender: GAMBIA-L-owner@u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: msjaiteh@mtu.edu (Malanding S. Jaiteh) > To: GAMBIA-L: The Gambia and Related Issues Mailing List > <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: lets' do it > In-Reply-To: <199711202031.PAA04935@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> from "N'Deye > Marie N'Jie" at Nov 20, 97 03:31:30 pm > Content-Type: text > X-Authentication-Warning: campus0.mtu.edu: Host oak.ffr.mtu.edu > [141.219.149.151] claimed to be oak.mtu.edu > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Jabou it does not take that long because the funeral home bills the insurance companies and they pay all the costs including the Airfare in some cases. just for your information Habib -- MZ� ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:10:42 EST From: "BOJANG,BUBA" <BBOJANG@MUSIC.TRANSY.EDU> To: <gambia-l@u.washington.edu> Subject: Re subscription Message-ID: <21NOV97.19632921.0017.MUSIC@MUSIC.TRANSY.EDU> Fellas, What are we waiting for in responding positively to K. Touray's initiation? no one knows what will happen to you the next minute you get up from this computer, so let onesgood health today not predict good health for you tomorrow. Please enlist me among those who agree to it. Buba Bojang ( Bada ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:05:31 -0600 From: Tamsir Mbai <mba4224@etbu.edu> To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Junius' words Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971121174431.3af78632@etbu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Moe, From your reply to Bass, it seems as if though even before you sent your first posting, you already had an inkling that the author, Junius, was actually refering to Africa. I like to think that he was actually refering to the English authorities. One has to really understand the historical situation in England at the time of relevance to better understand the semantics of this quote. Before i go into detail about the socioeconopolitical situation in England at the time, i will just refer you back to the first sentence of the mail. It reads as follows: "In his first letter to the Public Advertiser on January 21, 1789, Junius' assessment of the United Kingdom (for how government of his day was conducted) reads .... In my humble opinion, the above statement explicitly says that Junius was assessing how the govt of the United Kingdom was conducted at the time in question. For that reason, to ask the question: "Could one say that he was writing of BLACK AFRICA????" is a distortion of the context in which the assessment was made. Nevertheless, i definitely believe that even though out of context, the same quote could be said of Africa "today." Notice i emphasized "today" and not 1789. To the best of my recollection, Africa in 1789 was composed of empires and not the independent nations as we know them today. To be brief, i say that back then, the emperors and kings of the day in Africa got what they wanted from the people, including "civil obedience." It is this "civil obedience" in 1789 Africa that has further convinced me that Junius was refering to England when he said "dissensions in all parts of the EMPIRE." I capitalized "EMPIRE" to show that England was/is an empire as well. Now let's address the socioeconopolitical situation of England in 1789. 1789 found England at the infancy of her Industrial Revolution. Prior to 1803, England was primarily agrarian, but with the invention of several mechanical devices after 1740 (i'm not saying there were no mechanical devices before 1740), the economy shifted its focus from small scale yeomanry agriculture to institutionalized agri-production. This destruction of the yeomanry class resulted in a massive influx of peasants from the rural to the urban areas in search for work and a decent living. This in turn brought about a resultant decrease in agricultural productivity for a while. A major reason could be attributed to the fact that some of the major inventions of the time, the Steam Engine in particular, was only patented by James Watt in 1769 but its use in the smelting of iron and steel did not come about until 1788. So in essence, we see that manufacturing was also very low in addition to a decreased agricultural productivity. Quite naturally, the general population was very critical of the changes from the established agrarian system to a new system (industrial) whose effects were already being felt very hardly by the average person. It would not take long, but during this time that some historians have dubbed the "Stagnation Period," life in England was quite miserable. In fact it was so distasteful that the govt started rationing some essentials. The people thus lost confidence in govt policies. Consequently, riots and other criminal behavior became a necessary option. In my opinion, it is this loss in "obedience for the law," this "ill-condition of the people," this "distrust and disaffection" for the govt, this "dissension in all parts of the empire" in the form of riots, that Junius was talking about in 1789. I opine loudly that he was not referring to Africa. To ascertain my argument, several economists have addressed the conditions in England during this same period. Adam Smith (the father of Capitalism/Competition), in direct response to the conditions in England wrote "The Wealth of Nations" in 1776. He was a proponent of a freely competitive market system where the govt did not dictate the ventures of its citizenry. He explored how govt and individuals can accumulate wealth through competition without govt interference. This was warranted by the circumstances in England. This new way of thinking though did not sit well with the French because it was an extension of LAISSEZ-FAIRE (free market economics) without giving any credit to the French. At the same time, America had already declared independence from Great Britain in 1776, the same year that Adam Smith wrote his now famous doctrine. The only thing that i can deduce from the French-connection and this American-connection is that for England, there was "a total loss of respect abroad in the eyes of foreign powers." Again we see that Junius was talking to England. As regards the level of poverty in England, another great economist, Malthus, wrote in 1798 his Theory on Population to address the causes of poverty (again England). Finally, one other great economist, Ricardo, wrote in 1817 "Principles of Political Economy and Taxation" to address how the accumulated wealth through Adam Smith's theory can be evenly distributed amongst the population through taxation to remedy the conditions of poverty that Malthus talked about. My conclusion from this is that while Junius' statement was to prove prophetic as applicable to Africa, several other thinkers/economists before and after him have addressed the conditions of the English people in 1789. Junius was probably lamenting the radical changes brought about by industrialization, with its subsequent problems. It turns out though that Junius was wrong because America's or France's loss of respect for England had nothing to do with Industrialization, rather everything to do with national sovereignty in the case of America, and fundamental principle in the case of France. Also, industrialization turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to England in particular and the world in general. Maybe Junius' fear was valid at the time, but they are certainly ridiculous by today's standards. I thus rest my case. Have a good weekend everybody. Peace!!!!! It's Tamsir. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:20:06 -0500 (EST) From: mjallow@st6000.sct.edu (Modou Jallow) To: gambia-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Junius' words Message-ID: <9711220420.AA45446@st6000.sct.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tamsir, you wrote: > > Moe, > From your reply to Bass, it seems as if though even before you sent your > first posting, you already had an inkling that the author, Junius, was > actually refering to Africa. Ofcourse not, bro. Tamsir. The purpose was to demonstrate how exact the excerpt might have purported the the present day African scenario of shortcomings, eventhough it was written well before the days of our time. I think Bass understood precisely (I assume) the reason for the comparison as shown by his reactive comment of provocational interference on my part. Eventhough not totally intentioned, I thought that the excerpt might steer us in the direction of the ultimate debate on the cure for Africa's economic (and political) underdevelopment as seen by the western nations that continually inflict wounds of laughter on us. Nonetheless, the contents of your response were well noted and understood. Thank you for the auxilliary lesson of history that must have consumed some of your precious time while writing. It is very much appreciated! I will respond to you as soon as time permits. At the moment, however, I am kind of swamped with projects and will even be forced (unwillingly and unhappily) to stay away from my email for the next few days. Have a good weekend! Regards, Moe S. Jallow ========================================================================== mjallow@sct.edu mjallow@hayes.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS Tamsir, do you know of any good sources of history of the west african tribes? I am looking for sources (hopefully on the net) of history of the "Toucoleur" tribe(s) of senegambia to link/integrate to my website. If you know of any, please let me know via private mail. Thanks. [/quote]   Check here to include your profile signature.